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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Sorry, put this here by mistake, but don't know how to delete it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Hi! Have you figured out, which vocal booth design is the best in terms of functionality? The thing is that a friend of mine is crazy about music and he has a band of his own called "T-Stars". He's made up his mind to build a vocal booth to hold rehearsals there and I'd really wish to help him with the best design. Thanks in advance for your recommendations, guys!


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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
Martha Bern wrote:
Hi! Have you figured out, which vocal booth design is the best in terms of functionality? The thing is that a friend of mine is crazy about music and he has a band of his own called "T-Stars". He's made up his mind to build a vocal booth to hold rehearsals there and I'd really wish to help him with the best design. Thanks in advance for your recommendations, guys!
Your friend seems to be sadly mistaken if he plans to hold rehearsals of an entire band inside a vocal booth! Vocal booths are usually big enough for one person to stand in.

Also, please explain what you mean by "best in terms of functionality". A vocal booth is very simple in concept: A small room, or "booth", with a door. The functionality is that you open the door, go inside, close it, sing, open the door again, and exit. I'm not sure how you would improve on that functionality. So did you have a point or were you just spamming the forum? Curiously, you chose a thread that the poster himself marked as an error... Maybe you just selected it, hoping to go unnoticed, as spammers often do?

Considering that you posted four such meaningless comments on four different, unrelated threads in the space of six minutes, then the next day posted a spam link to your spam company, I'm guessing that you are a spammer! :) Bye...

- Stuart -

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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Location: Cleveland, OH
Hi everyone, I'm so glad I stumbled across this forum. What a vast amount of knowledge. This being my first post please forgive me if I go about posting or asking anything in a wrong manner here. I'm moving my bedroom studio to my basement which is opening quite a bit of room for me. It's roughly about 11' W x 18' L x 7' H. I have a vocal/isolated booth roughed in at about 4'x6'. The basement is a finished room, drywall on the walls and ceiling. Now I built the booth off a 8" thick brick wall and the remaining 3 walls are 2x4's filled with roxul and then resilient channel, 2 sheets of 5/8 drywall on the outside and inside, and a solid core door. Now the heating/cooling duct for the whole room runs directly over the vocal booth and is now outside the booth. I have access to the duct work from the other room/ceiling which is not finished. Now my first question is can I just tap that duct with a Tee seeing that it's running right over the vocal booth for Heat and Ac? And will I or won't I need a exhaust fan of some kind? The window glass, is there a standard thickness for each glass? What would you recommend? And the angle of the glass, how is that determined? Do you angle both sides? And running a snake into the booth. What would be the best way for doing that? Thanks so very much...


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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:56 am 
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Hi there "lakecarson". Welcome! :)

Quote:
This being my first post please forgive me if I go about posting or asking anything in a wrong manner here.
It would be a good idea to start your own thread, about your specific studio build, and keep all of your posts about that together in the same thread. That way, it's easy to keep track of everything relating to it.

Quote:
It's roughly about 11' W x 18' L x 7' H.
That's a reasonable size space for a control room, not so much if you want more than one room in there: and the ceiling is very low. Is that the measurement from the floor to the bottom of the ceiling? Any chance you can take out the ceiling drywall, to get more height?

Quote:
I have a vocal/isolated booth roughed in at about 4'x6'.
Try to avoid dimensions that are directly related mathematically: Twice the length is equal to three times the width (2x6=12, 3x4=12). That would create the situation where certain resonances inside the room would reinforce each other at certain frequencies- Not a good thing for a studio!

Quote:
Now I built the booth off a 8" thick brick wall
Are you saying that you directly attached the booth to one of the outer-leaf walls of the house, such that one of the interior walls of the booth is that brick wall? Are you aware that you will not be able to get high isolation like this?

Quote:
Now the heating/cooling duct for the whole room runs directly over the vocal booth and is now outside the booth.
From what you describe, technically the duct is not outside the booth: it is in between the inner-leaf and outer-leaf, meaning that it is not isolated. Noise from your booth will get into the duct, and vice versa.

Quote:
Now my first question is can I just tap that duct with a Tee seeing that it's running right over the vocal booth for Heat and Ac?
Assuming that the duct in question was already supplying air to your basement, then yes... with caveats! But if that duct was NOT supplying your basement, then no. For example, if it was supplying your living room, or a bedroom, or some other room, then tapping of air for the booth would reduce the airflow to that other room (or rooms), unbalancing the design of the HVAC system. There would be insufficient flow to the other rooms.

Also, even if that duct is the one that supplies the basement, you still can't just tap into it directly: you need a silencer box in between the duct and the room. If not, then noise form the booth will get directly into the HVAC system, and noise form the HVAC system will get into the room, and into your mics, messing up all of your recordings.

Quote:
And will I or won't I need a exhaust fan of some kind?
That depends on a whole bunch of things, but the main one is something called "static pressure". If the path that the air would take though the registers that lead into and out of your booth would substantially increase the static pressure for the duct that is supplying it, then yes, you would need a fan: in your case, you would need an in-line fan at some point, either on the supply duct into the room, or the return duct leaving the room. In either case, it would have to go on the far side of the relevant silencer box: wither before the supply silencer, or after the return silencer. If not, then the fan noise would get into the room, the mics, etc. You would need to calculate the characteristics of the fan, in terms of flow rate, flow speed, and static pressure, to ensure that it provides the correct conditions to do the job.

Quote:
The window glass, is there a standard thickness for each glass?
No. The thickness needs to be calculated for each individual case. It needs to have at least the same surface density as the leaf that it is in. So the glass on the inner-leaf of your wall would need to match the density of the inner-leaf, and the other glass would need to match the density of the outer leaf.

Quote:
And the angle of the glass, how is that determined? Do you angle both sides?
That one is simple! 1) The angle is 90°. 2) You do not angle either side! :) Despite what you see in photos of "high-end" studios, and even in some misleading text books (as well as an infinite number of YouTube videos about "How I built my world-class studio for seventeen dollars and twenty three cents... :) ), it is an absolute myth that you need to angle your glass for acoustic reasons. You MIGHT need to angle it for visual reasons: if you expect that you'll have lighting issues that prevent you from seeing through it, or some type of glare. But there's no acoustic need at all to do that.

Let me explain: people think that by angling the glass, it prevents sound reflections from getting into the mic. Garbage! All that happens is that the reflection comes form a different point on the glass, but they still get there. And second, angling the glass REDUCES the total isolation between the rooms, because isolation depends on the size of the air gap between the glass panes, and by angling them, you make the gap smaller, which reduces isolation (technically, it drives up the MSM resonant frequency, so the air cavity will resonate at a higher frequency than would have been the case of the glass were not angled, thus implying greatly reduced isolation.

Here's a graphic that illustrates these two issues:

Attachment:
angled-glass-myth-doesnt-work--rbdg-com--.jpg


It's pretty clear, and self-explanatory.

There's one other issue that isn't shown on the image, but still matters: Since most studio mics are cardiod, supercardiod, or even figure-8, they are insensitive to the reflections in any case: for a vocal booth the treatment that is at the rear of the mic matters a whole lot less than the treatment in front of the mic: what's most important, is the treatment on the wall that the mic is pointing towards, not so much the one that it is pointing away from...

In other words, if you want maximum isolation, then don't angle your glass. If you think that you might have light glare issues, then put the lighting in differently, so that it does not create glare conditions on the glass.
Quote:
And running a snake into the booth. What would be the best way for doing that?
Assuming you want maximum isolation, you would need to run it through a conduit that has a small isolation break in the middle to decouple the two ends, wrap the gap with some type of flexible rubber, then plug both ends with insulation and caulk. However, for a typical home studio, it is probably enough to just run the snake through reinforced "boxes" in the two leaves of the wall, but NOT straight across the gap: in other words, the cable goes through one leaf and immediately curves until it is parallel to the wall surface. Then it runs along several feet, bends the other way, and goes through the second leaf.


- Stuart -


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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:32 pm
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Location: Cleveland, OH
Thanks for some great points. As far as the ceiling to the floor measurement, yes I have 7'. Only a half inch of drywall then the rafters. The booth is attached to a inside brick wall and I have another room on the other side. The other walls come into the studio. The heating/cooling duct is a dedicated duct for the basement. Now I planned on running new duct work into the booth through a silencer, then up through the ceiling. Now the exhaust fan has me a bit confused. So I hook the vent leaving the booth into another silencer? Should that fan be at the out take of that vent leading into the silencer or at the end of the silencer? Thanks for clearing up the glass angle myth for me. But I don't understand this. If I need glass that's 32x30 and 11x30 (It needs to have at least the same surface density as the leaf that it is in. So the glass on the inner-leaf of your wall would need to match the density of the inner-leaf, and the other glass would need to match the density of the outer leaf)? When you referring to a wall, is that a leaf? Any good silencer designs out there you can point me to...Many thanks again...Lc


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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Wall with drywall or some other hard/heavy surface = leaf. This is also the "mass" in a MSM system. To achieve sound proofing, you need 2 leafs with air/insulation between them. Hence the term MSM. Mass Space Mass.

For silencer boxes, there are many threads on the forum discussing them. To summarize what I've learned about them:

- do the math or hire an HVAC dude to calculate how big of ducts you'll need to supply your space with sufficient air flow/velocity according to code and then beef it up some more because chances are, the musicians in the space aren't going to be watching Netflix, they're going to be breaking a sweat.
- figure out the cross sectional area of the duct (simple math).
- the path inside the silencer must be at least double the cross sectional area of the inlet.
- the outlet of the box must maintain that size (double the inlet) all the way until it exists the register. So make sure your register is big too!
- Use proper duct liner inside of the box
- Make the box out of good heavy material.
- Don't use duct transitions. Have your small round duct go straight into the silencer. The impedance mismatch is key to the box functioning properly.
- Not only do you need to follow the basic "double the cross sectional area" rule, you should try and figure out the speed at which your air will be travelling. There are threads in here that discuss that topic as well. Basically, you want the air going slow enough so that it isn't creating noise either (like putting your head out of your car window doing 20 km/hr).
- The more baffles in your box, the better. But these boxes do eat up a lot of real estate, so we have to be realistic in our designs. I've seen lots of threads where people only have 3 baffles total and say that they work great.
- The inlet should be on a different axis than the outlet (ex: inlet on bottom, outlet on side)

Now, to bring back the MSM topic and relate it to the HVAC silencers, I think it's a good idea to have those silencers live between the leafs if possible. If they have to live in your room or outside of your room, make sure they are attached directly to the corresponding leaf and that they maintain the mass of that leaf. So, build it out of MDF, HDF, or plywood and then add more layers to it. You can look up the density of different materials to make sure you don't compromise your nicely sound proofed room.

Fans are usually put on the return duct furthest away from your room. You only need one fan for each room. Again, figure out what it's specs need to be.

You do need a silencer on the supply as well as the return of your room's air system.

I don't know the answer to the glass question, but it does make sense to try and maintain the same surface density as the rest of the wall. If you don't, you will have two sections of your wall with different resonance frequencies as well as having different TL values. I'm too tired to look up the surface density of laminated glass vs drywall, but that is something we should look up and confirm. Great thinking! SketchUp your room, share it, and keep us posted on your progress!

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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:12 pm 
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very good design. I would like to build the same for my voiceover work. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Vocal Booth Design
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:14 am
Posts: 12
Hey John,

I'm glad I saw this post. This seems like a good design. How could it actually be effective though for recording? It seems extremely tight.


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