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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:38 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
So I am thinking about going with this method of construction for my vocal booth ceiling instead of building and raising modules into place...

1) Install a layer of 23/32 OSB on top of the 2 x 6 joists (16" o.c.)
2) Cut drywall to size to fit in between joists (leave 1/4" gap around edges for caulking)
3) Install drywall to underside of OSB in between joists(from standing inside vocal booth and securing to ceiling)
4) Caulk around all edges
5) Install roxul safe n sound below drywall
6) Install fabric ceiling

Is there any reason that I should not construct the ceiling this way?

If I do build it this way, would i need to add additional cleats below the drywall to secure it in place, or would drywall screws be sufficient?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
Another quick question,

When creating the baffle box, will brad nails and wood glue be sufficient?

Do I have to have screws? would rather not deal with the issue of splitting the 1/2"mdf if I can get by without it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Is there any reason that I should not construct the ceiling this way?

How will you be able to fasten the OSB into the joists from above with only a few inches space to work?

Quote:
If I do build it this way, would i need to add additional cleats below the drywall to secure it in place, or would drywall screws be sufficient?

Screws would be sufficient, yes, but the cleat method would allow your drywall to resonate more on the Green Glue compound.

Quote:
When creating the baffle box, will brad nails and wood glue be sufficient?

I would personally take the time to add some strength to the joints by using something like Kreg joints. You can buy a Kreg joint kit for really cheap. Then fill the holes with kreg plugs. Brad nails will hold your pieces together while the glue dries, but structurally, there isn't much strength is JUST glue on MDF.

Quote:
Do I have to have screws? would rather not deal with the issue of splitting the 1/2"mdf if I can get by without it.

Pre drill your holes. That should be standard practice anyway.

Greg

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
Is there any reason that I should not construct the ceiling this way?

How will you be able to fasten the OSB into the joists from above with only a few inches space to work?
I have about 21" above of "free space" I think I should have enough room to attach the osb
Quote:
If I do build it this way, would i need to add additional cleats below the drywall to secure it in place, or would drywall screws be sufficient?

Screws would be sufficient, yes, but the cleat method would allow your drywall to resonate more on the Green Glue compound.
Ok Thanks
Quote:
When creating the baffle box, will brad nails and wood glue be sufficient?

I would personally take the time to add some strength to the joints by using something like Kreg joints. You can buy a Kreg joint kit for really cheap. Then fill the holes with kreg plugs. Brad nails will hold your pieces together while the glue dries, but structurally, there isn't much strength is JUST glue on MDF.
hmm, maybe I will screw just to be safe (although would lead to more time), but I heard that the glue is stronger than the MDF itself, so after hearing that, I would think that the box would be sufficient as is...
Quote:
Do I have to have screws? would rather not deal with the issue of splitting the 1/2"mdf if I can get by without it.

Pre drill your holes. That should be standard practice anyway.
Ok Thanks
Greg


As I am getting closer to framing now, I am kind of second guessing myself on whether I want to go with inside out walls for the side walls (I will still do inside out celing). Realistically, how long of a wall could I make in place on the floor (double dw with gg) and be able to lift in place with 2-3 people? I think my longest wall is about 14.5 ft long and just under 8.5 ft tall. Because of this, I think it might be better to build the frame, lift and install the frame, and then attach the dw from the inside of the room, rather than attempt to lift that massive structure from the ground up (if even possible). Any thoughts on this? The downside to doing this would be that I would now have to treat the hard drywall surfaces on the inside of the room :( in order to eliminate the echo.

Also, If i do the walls with normal construction (not inside out) would I have to worry about covering the 2x6 sill that will sit on top of the framing vertically with drywall, or is the 2x6 a dense enough mass not to worry about covering up with dw? Hopefully you can follow me here, if not ill post a picture


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:23 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
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Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
I have about 21" above of "free space" I think I should have enough room to attach the osb

If you have this much room, you should be raising your ceiling higher to get better acoustics in your booth. But, maybe you have that much space including all of the mechanical for the building at which point, as long as you can get your hammer or drill up there to fasten the OSB to your joists, that's awesome.

Quote:
hmm, maybe I will screw just to be safe (although would lead to more time), but I heard that the glue is stronger than the MDF itself, so after hearing that, I would think that the box would be sufficient as is...

Personally, I'd take the extra 1.5 min per kreg joint to make sure the box lasts forever. Glue is awesome and all, but in my almost 36 years of life, I've seen thousands and thousands of things where the glue dries up and crap just falls apart. I've torn down ceilings to reveal duct work that was held together with duct tape that dried up and the connection came apart. Things like that suck because you can't fix it without tearing down the ceiling. The same analogy can be applied to your build.

Quote:

Post subject: Re: Need help with vocal booth/ room dimensions Reply with quote
Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
Is there any reason that I should not construct the ceiling this way?

How will you be able to fasten the OSB into the joists from above with only a few inches space to work?
I have about 21" above of "free space" I think I should have enough room to attach the osb
Quote:
If I do build it this way, would i need to add additional cleats below the drywall to secure it in place, or would drywall screws be sufficient?

Screws would be sufficient, yes, but the cleat method would allow your drywall to resonate more on the Green Glue compound.
Ok Thanks
Quote:
When creating the baffle box, will brad nails and wood glue be sufficient?

I would personally take the time to add some strength to the joints by using something like Kreg joints. You can buy a Kreg joint kit for really cheap. Then fill the holes with kreg plugs. Brad nails will hold your pieces together while the glue dries, but structurally, there isn't much strength is JUST glue on MDF.
hmm, maybe I will screw just to be safe (although would lead to more time), but I heard that the glue is stronger than the MDF itself, so after hearing that, I would think that the box would be sufficient as is...
Quote:
Do I have to have screws? would rather not deal with the issue of splitting the 1/2"mdf if I can get by without it.

Pre drill your holes. That should be standard practice anyway.
Ok Thanks
Greg


As I am getting closer to framing now, I am kind of second guessing myself on whether I want to go with inside out walls for the side walls (I will still do inside out celing). Realistically, how long of a wall could I make in place on the floor (double dw with gg) and be able to lift in place with 2-3 people? I think my longest wall is about 14.5 ft long and just under 8.5 ft tall. Because of this, I think it might be better to build the frame, lift and install the frame, and then attach the dw from the inside of the room, rather than attempt to lift that massive structure from the ground up (if even possible). Any thoughts on this? The downside to doing this would be that I would now have to treat the hard drywall surfaces on the inside of the room :( in order to eliminate the echo.

I can't tell you how much you and your buddies can lift, but you could play it safe and build your inside out walls in chunks consisting of 2 sheets of 4'x8' sheets. So 8 foot lengths. Just drill, caulk and bolt the chunks together to ensure structural integrity. You certainly don't have to do the entire wall as one length. That would probably be impossible.

Quote:
Also, If i do the walls with normal construction (not inside out) would I have to worry about covering the 2x6 sill that will sit on top of the framing vertically with drywall, or is the 2x6 a dense enough mass not to worry about covering up with dw? Hopefully you can follow me here, if not ill post a picture

You would install noggins at the ends of the joist spaces (kreg joints would come in handy here) which will have enough surface density. Again, caulk/seal every step of the way.

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:32 am
Posts: 56
Location: Rochester, NY
Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
I have about 21" above of "free space" I think I should have enough room to attach the osb

If you have this much room, you should be raising your ceiling higher to get better acoustics in your booth. But, maybe you have that much space including all of the mechanical for the building at which point, as long as you can get your hammer or drill up there to fasten the OSB to your joists, that's awesome.
There are mechanicals and whatnot in the way, so I can't extend any higher, but I shoudl have room to work around for attaching osb to top of frame
Quote:
hmm, maybe I will screw just to be safe (although would lead to more time), but I heard that the glue is stronger than the MDF itself, so after hearing that, I would think that the box would be sufficient as is...

Personally, I'd take the extra 1.5 min per kreg joint to make sure the box lasts forever. Glue is awesome and all, but in my almost 36 years of life, I've seen thousands and thousands of things where the glue dries up and crap just falls apart. I've torn down ceilings to reveal duct work that was held together with duct tape that dried up and the connection came apart. Things like that suck because you can't fix it without tearing down the ceiling. The same analogy can be applied to your build.ok, gotcha

Quote:

Post subject: Re: Need help with vocal booth/ room dimensions Reply with quote
Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
Is there any reason that I should not construct the ceiling this way?

How will you be able to fasten the OSB into the joists from above with only a few inches space to work?
I have about 21" above of "free space" I think I should have enough room to attach the osb
Quote:
If I do build it this way, would i need to add additional cleats below the drywall to secure it in place, or would drywall screws be sufficient?

Screws would be sufficient, yes, but the cleat method would allow your drywall to resonate more on the Green Glue compound.
Ok Thanks
Quote:
When creating the baffle box, will brad nails and wood glue be sufficient?

I would personally take the time to add some strength to the joints by using something like Kreg joints. You can buy a Kreg joint kit for really cheap. Then fill the holes with kreg plugs. Brad nails will hold your pieces together while the glue dries, but structurally, there isn't much strength is JUST glue on MDF.
hmm, maybe I will screw just to be safe (although would lead to more time), but I heard that the glue is stronger than the MDF itself, so after hearing that, I would think that the box would be sufficient as is...
Quote:
Do I have to have screws? would rather not deal with the issue of splitting the 1/2"mdf if I can get by without it.

Pre drill your holes. That should be standard practice anyway.
Ok Thanks
Greg


As I am getting closer to framing now, I am kind of second guessing myself on whether I want to go with inside out walls for the side walls (I will still do inside out celing). Realistically, how long of a wall could I make in place on the floor (double dw with gg) and be able to lift in place with 2-3 people? I think my longest wall is about 14.5 ft long and just under 8.5 ft tall. Because of this, I think it might be better to build the frame, lift and install the frame, and then attach the dw from the inside of the room, rather than attempt to lift that massive structure from the ground up (if even possible). Any thoughts on this? The downside to doing this would be that I would now have to treat the hard drywall surfaces on the inside of the room :( in order to eliminate the echo.

I can't tell you how much you and your buddies can lift, but you could play it safe and build your inside out walls in chunks consisting of 2 sheets of 4'x8' sheets. So 8 foot lengths. Just drill, caulk and bolt the chunks together to ensure structural integrity. You certainly don't have to do the entire wall as one length. That would probably be impossible.
If 8 foot sections are manageable, maybe I will try this approach... How would I go about joining the 2 walls together at the corners? I imagine it would be too difficult to have the top
plate overlap at the 90 degree corner of the adjoining wall if I am building inside out and lifting into place. Do you have any images or links you could point me to that show how to properly join the two walls together at the corner? Also how to properly joing 2 walls in parallel? (If doing inside out wall)

Quote:
Also, If i do the walls with normal construction (not inside out) would I have to worry about covering the 2x6 sill that will sit on top of the framing vertically with drywall, or is the 2x6 a dense enough mass not to worry about covering up with dw? Hopefully you can follow me here, if not ill post a picture

You would install noggins at the ends of the joist spaces (kreg joints would come in handy here) which will have enough surface density. Again, caulk/seal every step of the way.
Greg


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
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Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
If 8 foot sections are manageable, maybe I will try this approach... How would I go about joining the 2 walls together at the corners? I imagine it would be too difficult to have the top
plate overlap at the 90 degree corner of the adjoining wall if I am building inside out and lifting into place. Do you have any images or links you could point me to that show how to properly join the two walls together at the corner? Also how to properly joing 2 walls in parallel? (If doing inside out wall)

Draw it in SketchUp. Joining in the corners should go together just like a normal wall would.

A dry 8’ 2x4 weighs about 10 pounds, 2x6 about 15.7 pounds; density about 4.28 PSF for 2x lumber. This puts 2x lumber at roughly the same density as a layer of 5/8 and a layer of ½” drywall. 2x10 about 28 pounds per 8' length, or 3.5 lbs/lin.ft.

So, if you want, you could put two 2x4's sistered in the corner to screw your joining wall to. That would give you more than enough surface density to maintain your wall mass.

Joining them in parallel? In what scenario would you want them in parallel?

Joining them in series, like I mentioned for building long lengths of wall, would require you to caulk before joining them, then screw and bolt them together (drill holes and put bolts/washers/nuts in the holes).

I don't have any images, but if you can't wrap your head around the concept, someone, maybe myself, could draw it up in SketchUp for you (I really don't have the spare time any time soon to do it though)

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
Thanks Greg, this makes sense, and yes I meant in series, not in parallel.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:26 pm 
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Location: Rochester, NY
I have a few questions about constructing the inside out walls for the vocal booth.

I am planning on framing the walls (with dw and gg) on the floor and lifting into place.

The sequence I am thinking of building this in is the following (see steps 1-6 in images)

1) Build back wall in 2 sections that will be bolted together in series
Question 1: what size bolt and how far apart do they need to be?

Question 2: If I build the walls this way, the sides of my rear wall and front wall will not have drywall on the long side of the stud (3.5" - See red circles in image). Do I need to worry about convering all stud surfaces with 2 layers of drywall/gg? If so, should I just have 3.5" overlapping from wall #2 so that the overlap will cover up the naked stud on the corner? I will not be able to screw the 3.5" layer overlap down because the air gap between the outer leaf side wall & inner leaf side wall is too tight to fit tools in

2) The second wall (side wall - wall #2), will be contstructed on the floor and raised into place also. The top sill will overlap 3.5" on each side to join walls 1 and 4 together and create a sturdy structure.

Question3: Does this check out ok? or Should I wait to install the second top plate after the 4 walls have been erected?

3) Wall # 3, (Other side wall) will follow same techinique as wall 2

4) The framing for Wall 4 will be built on the ground and lifted into place without the dw and gg. I think it might be too heavy to try and lift all at once and I need to keep the rough opening in place as is.
I plan on hanging the dw-gg-dw application after the wall is erect.

Question 4: What are your thoughts on this?

5) The ceiling will be 2 x 6 (16 o.c.) with 3/4" OSB installed on top of the ceiling joists, and gg - 5/8 drwall screwed to the underside of the OSB in between the ceiling joists.

Three options for the ceiling:

a) build the ceiling in place by installing railing around the perimeter of the wall which will hold the joists in place, then install joists one by one, then attach OSB to top, then attach layer of drywall with gg in between to underside of OSB, caulk all seams


b) build the ceiling frame in liftable sections (minus the osb/dw which will still be attached as described above (This would allow me to nail face of rail through the ends of the joists, whereas I wont be able to reach behind the rail on the rear wall to nail through the rail into the joists)

c) When building each wall individually, Add the Railing to the top plate, then add the combined structure just mentioned to the top plate of the wall. Then add Joists after all walls are erect.

Question 5: Which method should I go about constructing the ceiling? Or is there another way to go about doing this that I did not think about/mention?

Question 6: How would I go about attaching the railing that holds the joists into the double top plate?

Question 7: Again, Do I need to make sure the circled portions of the top rails are covered with 2 layers of dw/gg or can these remain uncovered (is the mass of the wood equal to or more than the 2 layers of drywall and green glue?

If possible, I would really appreciate a quick response to these questions as I will be spending as much time as possible this weekend beginning to frame the walls.

Thanks again for all your feedback, it has been really helpful in planning!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:39 am 
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Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Question 1: what size bolt and how far apart do they need to be?

Larger and really, I'd put at least 5. 1 at the top, 1 at the bottom, 1 in the middle, and 1 between the top/middle and 1 between the bottom/middle.

Quote:
Question 2: If I build the walls this way, the sides of my rear wall and front wall will not have drywall on the long side of the stud (3.5" - See red circles in image). Do I need to worry about convering all stud surfaces with 2 layers of drywall/gg? If so, should I just have 3.5" overlapping from wall #2 so that the overlap will cover up the naked stud on the corner? I will not be able to screw the 3.5" layer overlap down because the air gap between the outer leaf side wall & inner leaf side wall is too tight to fit tools in

In theory, you shouldn't have to worry about it because the idea of the OSB and drywall on the wall is to provide x amount of surface density (for the MSM equation to work). As I stated in a previous comment, dimensional lumber, when sistered totalling 3" thick, will provide enough mass to pretty much meet that of two layers of drywall and some OSB. Here: is what I copy/pasted from the material density thread earlier:
Quote:
A dry 8’ 2x4 weighs about 10 pounds, 2x6 about 15.7 pounds; density about 4.28 PSF for 2x lumber. This puts 2x lumber at roughly the same density as a layer of 5/8 and a layer of ½” drywall. 2x10 about 28 pounds per 8' length, or 3.5 lbs/lin.ft.

Just make sure you seal the hell out of every joint.

Quote:
Question3: Does this check out ok? or Should I wait to install the second top plate after the 4 walls have been erected?

The overlapping top plate isn't necessary. These walls can be joined using standard construction techniques (with a bunch of caulk of course)

Quote:
Question 4: What are your thoughts on this?

I'd bet you and your buds can tilt that one into place without too much trouble. It's just dimensional lumber with nothing extra attached. Again, that's normal construction practice. If you're worried about tilting into any of these walls, look into getting/renting a wall jack.

Quote:
Question 5: Which method should I go about constructing the ceiling? Or is there another way to go about doing this that I did not think about/mention?

C... kind of. Your description doesn't entirely make sense. You say to add the rim board to the top plate while building the wall on the ground. Then you go on to say that you will "add the combined structure just mentioned to the top plate of the wall". But if the rim board is already on the top plate, why would you have to add some "combined structure"?
Your drywall can go on TOP of your OSB. The OSB is there to provide structural integrity and some mass. The drywall is there purely to add mass.

Quote:
Question 6: How would I go about attaching the railing that holds the joists into the double top plate?

Screw the rim board (I assume this is the railing you're referring to) to the top plate from the under side of the top plate. Again, make sure to caulk the connection of the rim board to the top plate!

Quote:
Question 7: Again, Do I need to make sure the circled portions of the top rails are covered with 2 layers of dw/gg or can these remain uncovered (is the mass of the wood equal to or more than the 2 layers of drywall and green glue?

As per my answer to Question #2, they can remain uncovered. A 2 by piece of dimensional lumber has the equivalent surface density of a single sheet of 5/8" drywall AND a single sheet of 1/2" drywall. So, if you sister two 2x4's in the corners (which you should be doing anyway), that will give you the equivalent mass of 2 1/4" thick drywall which will roughly be the same as if you build your walls using a sheet of OSB and 2 layers of drywall.

Question for you: How are you going to fasten your ceiling joists to the rim board? There's no right or wrong answer here, but just curious what your plan is for that.

Greg

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