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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:02 am 
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It looks interesting, but hard to understand from just a single 2D plan view... :)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:05 am 
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Does this make more sense?
Attachment:
Cloud 3D.jpg


I'm really having to think through light placement so that it covers everywhere well but doesn't screw up my RFZ!

Greg


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:36 am 
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I also called around/looked around at different insulation available in my area and wanted to compare price differences.

There is no 701 around. There is only 1" and 2" thick 703. I can get FRK 3" 703 but it's super expensive in comparison. So anywhere I need 3" I will use a layer of 2" and a layer of 1". For 4" needs, I'll use two layers of 2".

Where I need super thick insulation (like in my inside out ceiling skeleton where I will need 5 1/2" of insulation) I'll use OC R24. For places I don't need amazing acoustic treatment (like inside wall cavities), I'll use 3" Rockwool Safe'n'Sound.

Dimensional lumber is always 1 1/2", 2 1/2", 3 1/2", 5 1/2". For the smaller dimension wood, I can't get exact sized insulation. So, this will force me to get creative with what lumber I use where and how I will frame fabric cover frames. I'll try to eliminate gaps where possible, but I think it's inevitable in spots. This is just making the design process harder :-(

Here are the prices I can obtain the three different models of insulation for:

$0.916 per 1” 1’x1’ for 703 with no discount
$0.209 per 1” 1’x1’ for OC R24
$0.300 per 1” 1’x1’ for Rockwool Safe’n’Sound

Now, for the 703, I can get a discount based on how much I buy at once. So I'm going to figure out roughly how much I need and buy it all at once. The place doesn't carry R24 or Safe'n'Sound as they only carry industrial grade insulation.

I'm also able to get Roxul ProRox SL960 (which is the new name for RHT80) or ProRox SL930 (which is the new name for RHT40) from a 4th place (I've bought some in the past) but I don't have those prices handy.

Anyway, sorry if this hasn't been an interesting post, but it's what's on my mind.

Greg

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Does this make more sense?
OK, that makes a bit more sense. I was actually looking at it backwards! :oops: But now I got it.

Have you thought of putting small hangers above parts of your cloud? Like this?

Attachment:
Hangers-in-ceiling-example-ENH-SML.jpg

Not sure if you have enough space for that, but it might be an idea.

Quote:
I'm really having to think through light placement so that it covers everywhere well but doesn't screw up my RFZ!
Be careful with light glare on your front window too. You can ray-trace for light glare just like you do for speaker reflections. There should be no direct light that is visible from the mix position as you look through the window, AND ALSO nothing that is illuminated directly, visible in the window. If you have things that are visible directly in the window (such as your own head, for example!) try to only get indirect lighting on those, or diffuse lighting (not a direct spotlight, for example). It's surprising how annoying light glare can be: especially seeing your own reflection in the window as you try to look through it.

Quote:
I also called around/looked around at different insulation available in my area and wanted to compare price difference.... :blah:
Your insulation plan sounds about right, except maybe for this part:
Quote:
For places I don't need amazing acoustic treatment (like inside wall cavities), I'll use 3" Rockwool Safe'n'Sound.
You are talking about your MSM cavities? Between inner-leaf and outer-leaf? Those should always be filled with insulation. If you have a 6" air gap, the you should have 6" of insulation in that, for maximum isolation.

Also, this:

Quote:
Dimensional lumber is always 1 1/2", 2 1/2", 3 1/2", 5 1/2". For the smaller dimension wood, I can't get exact sized insulation.
Right! So for treatment devices, either go one size larger with lumber and leave an air gap behind the insulation, or rip the lumber down to the same size as the insulation. In general I prefer to use larger lumber than the size of the insulation, and leave a small gap on BOTH sides. The gap at the front is to ensure that any insulation bulging out a little too far does not also cause a bulge in the fabric covering. So, for example, if you need 4" thick insulation for a hypothetical wall absorber, then use 1 x 6 lumber to frame it (which is 5-1/2"), and leave a half inch at the front for "bulge" factor, and an inch air gap at the rear, which will help extend the effective frequency range down a bit lower.

And if you are talking about wall cavities, then you can overfill them SLIGHTLY, with care. Eg. if you have a 5-1/2" gap, then you can put 6" of insulation in there as long as it it not rigid. You can compress the insulation up to about 10% with no flanking problems. (some say 20%, but I'm not too keen on that...)

Quote:
I'll try to eliminate gaps where possible,
Gaps are your friends, not your enemies! :) An air gap behind the insulation helps extend the frequency, and an air gap at the front helps aesthetics.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Quote:
Have you thought of putting small hangers above parts of your cloud? Like this?

I was planning either hangers or super chunk style. I have 3 cloud portions before the flat hanging cloud (the one that I'm trying to design the cool shapes on). The first cloud portion right above the window will not be hard backed. The next two will be hard backed. All 3 will have insulation above them.

I think I've decided to frame the first 3 cloud portions out of 2x4's and the big flat one out of 2x3's. Then I will take some 1x2's and make the fabric face frames out of those and brad nail them on. This would make a depth of 2.5" + 0.75" = 3.25". Just shy of a 2x4 on edge.

Quote:
Be careful with light glare on your front window too. You can ray-trace for light glare just like you do for speaker reflections. There should be no direct light that is visible from the mix position as you look through the window, AND ALSO nothing that is illuminated directly, visible in the window. If you have things that are visible directly in the window (such as your own head, for example!) try to only get indirect lighting on those, or diffuse lighting (not a direct spotlight, for example). It's surprising how annoying light glare can be: especially seeing your own reflection in the window as you try to look through it.

Thank you for mentioning the ray tracing idea for lights and the indirect lighting idea. I've angled my control room window to help with this, but I'll do everything I can to prevent glare. It would drive me bonkers to see myself!

Quote:
You are talking about your MSM cavities? Between inner-leaf and outer-leaf? Those should always be filled with insulation. If you have a 6" air gap, the you should have 6" of insulation in that, for maximum isolation.

That's what I meant. I can rip Safe'n'Sound down to size if need be to fill the MSM cavity as precisely as possible. Pink fluffy might be harder to rip accurately (my last attempt ripping it for a drum riser didn't yield very clean/accurate results). The R24 is the cheapest though, so I guess I'll have to make that decision.

Quote:
Right! So for treatment devices, either go one size larger with lumber and leave an air gap behind the insulation, or rip the lumber down to the same size as the insulation. In general I prefer to use larger lumber than the size of the insulation, and leave a small gap on BOTH sides. The gap at the front is to ensure that any insulation bulging out a little too far does not also cause a bulge in the fabric covering. So, for example, if you need 4" thick insulation for a hypothetical wall absorber, then use 1 x 6 lumber to frame it (which is 5-1/2"), and leave a half inch at the front for "bulge" factor, and an inch air gap at the rear, which will help extend the effective frequency range down a bit lower.

Thanks for the words of encouragement! My current treatment is 1x6 lumber with 4" insulation. Since I'm going all out on this build, I was planning on avoiding the air gaps, but it makes sense to consider fabric bulge. I'll be lenient with thickness.

Quote:
And if you are talking about wall cavities, then you can overfill them SLIGHTLY, with care. Eg. if you have a 5-1/2" gap, then you can put 6" of insulation in there as long as it it not rigid. You can compress the insulation up to about 10% with no flanking problems. (some say 20%, but I'm not too keen on that...)

That's awesome to know. I certainly don't want flanking or the compression to raise the density too much.

As a small update, I've started to design the centre section of my front wall as it will have the first section of cloud anchored to it. Playing around with the REW speaker placement simulator, I'm really wondering where I should fit my sub (I know I won't know for sure until I run acoustic measurements in real life). My from section certainly is not deep enough to hold my 12" sub. It's really going to be a trade off of bass trapping below the window, or sink the sub into it. I wish the REW program had flush mounted speakers on their simulator :-( Any words of wisdom on this topic?

And, Stuart, I never showed you the updated hanger configuration for the my soffit. Here it is. Thanks for the suggestion on this as well!
Attachment:
Bottom Soffit Hanger Config.jpg


Greg


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:08 am 
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Quote:
Thanks for the words of encouragement! My current treatment is 1x6 lumber with 4" insulation. Since I'm going all out on this build, I was planning on avoiding the air gaps, but it makes sense to consider fabric bulge.
Also, if you are going to put fabric on those frames, then bevel or round the inner edges of the frame, so that they don't make unsightly lines in the fabric, Route or sand, or even run it through the table saw at an angle.

Quote:
Playing around with the REW speaker placement simulator, I'm really wondering where I should fit my sub (I know I won't know for sure until I run acoustic measurements in real life). My from section certainly is not deep enough to hold my 12" sub. It's really going to be a trade off of bass trapping below the window, or sink the sub into it. I wish the REW program had flush mounted speakers on their simulator :-( Any words of wisdom on this topic?
I'm giving away all my secretes here! :) Don't plan on any treatment under the center section of your soffit, between the two actual soffits. Leave that totally empty for now (you'll add the treatment right at the end. That's the zone for "playing" with your sub, to find the correct spot with the smoothest response. You can project and predict and calculate all you want, but there's no substitute for actually nudging it around the floor in that area, while you use your ears (and REW) to optimize the position, orientation (yes, that matters too!) and adjustments (phase, level, cross-over). You can also use the "reverse" trick: put the sub on a tall stand at the location where your head will be, and move your head around the floor until you find the best spot. Bass works in both directions...

Once you have found the perfect spot THEN fill in that area between the soffits with hangers, insulation, or whatever. And AFTER you have done that, try tweaking the position again, since you will have changed the tuning by adding that treatment.

It's quite surprising the difference that just a few inches move of the sub can make to the low frequency response. Worth spending time on. And frustrating, too! Do the moves in small steps.

Quote:
Stuart, I never showed you the updated hanger configuration for the my soffit. Here it is. Thanks for the suggestion on this as well!
:thu: :oops:



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