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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:33 pm 
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Location: South Alabama, USA
Hello everyone. I've been reading through various posts on this forum for a small bit of time (a couple of months) while searching for a suitable home to build a rehearsal and recording space. I've finally closed on the new property and moved in. Now it's time to share what I have, get some direction and feedback on my plans/goals and start making steps towards bringing this to fruition.

First I'll do my best to describe the purpose of this space and how I'd like to utilize it. I'm a drummer and play in a band that plays funk, rock, metal type music. Probably typical rock band volumes. My goal for this space is to be able to host band rehearsals, jam sessions, general recording of our ideas and music, etc. There are 4 musicians currently but we do have guests and improv sessions as often as possible. Rehearsals typically will occur at night and could go all night long. I'd like to be able to use live sound through a P.A. system but we are also open to using in ear monitors if needed to accomplish our late night goals. Primary concern for noise is neighbors. My family is ok with noise and will sleep through anything. Unfortunately, since I've only just moved in, I don't have any sound volume tests and likely can't get any before starting construction. I can get a sound level meter and get some tests with drums only though for some basic info in the near future.

Now onto the space itself! The house I've purchased has an attached workshop. The full room is something like 30' x 26' with 9.5' ceilings. The exterior of 3 sides is brick and there are currently 2 external entry doors and a garage door. The 4th side connects to another workshop area. Currently the room's interior walls are covered with some wood paneling and the ceiling is plywood. Heating and cooling is currently provided by a window unit. I'm in the deep south US so I'll have to account for cooling and relative humidity.

After a ton of reading on this and similar forums as well as the Home Studio - Build it like the Pros book I've come up with a bit of a plan. I should also mention that I've spoke with one of the gentlemen over at The Soundproofing Company as well. Before I commit to the plan I've laid out and begin ordering materials, etc. I'd love to have your feedback, recommendations, etc.

I believe I've decided to break the space up into 2 rooms. A live room that will be the primary focus for sound reduction and a 2nd room that will be more for hanging out, doing some control work ( I did mention some recording goals), etc. I've built a layout plan in lucid charts for review that may give a decent idea of the space and my layout plan so far. I do want to maintain access to the restroom that is located between my storage/workshop area and garage as well as the separate external entrance for guests so they don't have to use the main home entrances.

The plan is to remove the current wood paneling from the walls to get them to studs and insulation and to remove the plywood from the ceiling for the same. Afterward a new room will be framed up for the live room area. The interior of this room will have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. Isolation clips and hat channel will be installed on the ceiling joists in the live room along with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. All perimeter joints for both layers will be treated with acoustical sealant in between layers. I do want to note that nothing is above the ceiling but attic space. No living areas. There is a standard roof and some plywood installed on the joists for the attic storage. The floor is concrete slab.

I do live in a neighborhood and have neighbors on 2 sides. Both are about 100 - 150 feet away in 2 directions. Currently if I play drums in this space, my wife can VERY faintly hear the kick and snare in our master bedroom which is on the far other side of the house. I could probably play without disturbing her at any time. But that's just drums. I'm sure with other musicians and equipment she'd be able to hear much more.

Questions:
1. Is this approach the proper way to gain the most sound reduction in the most cost-effective way? My budget is limited and I'll be doing as much of the work myself as possible to save money and to also ensure no corners are cut. I'm very handy with tools.

2. What is the best way to address the doors? This initial plan will end up having 4 doors. My thought is to do communal door systems for each.

3. By separating the rooms - am I able to avoid having to fully decouple the second room? With it's primary function being recreational I'm not terribly concerned (at least initially) with sound reduction from external sources. If my understanding is correct, the sound reduction of the live room would accomplish my goals with the band noise and neighbors.

4. This is likely a question more geared for the construction phase - How affective are the sound dampening products for electical boxes? I've been considering running the electrical inside the live room in surface mounted condiuts and exposed boxes (I'll need to find something that looks good) to avoid having holes in the drywall.

5. Cooling & Ventilation! - What is the best way to bring in fresh air, remove humidity, and ensure proper heating and cooling? My thought has been to implement a ductless mini-split system for the live room area and continue using the window unit in the lounge area. I could also consider a 2 zone mini-split. I'll still need to address fresh air. Do the mini-split systems effectively remove moisture and lower the relative humidity? I mentioned I live in the deep south. Humidity is frequently over 80% outside much of the year. I also leave in one of the highest rain volume cities in the U.S. I don't want my expensive gear getting rusted.

6. I've read mentions of using a first layer of OSB instead of drywall which would allow a screw to be placed anywhere. I'm very intrigued by this idea. Has anyone done something similar? I don't want to reduce the effectiveness of sound reduction but it would be nice to place a screw anywhere for mounting items, etc. What are your thoughts?

I've also seen mention of "proxy" type HVAC systems - something where the primary cooling, etc. can occur in the lounge with a properly built system to bring this air into the live room. The "Build it like the pros" book goes over a couple of ideas that I don't think I fully grasp.

Initial budget plan is $8000-$10000. If I must spend more I'll make it happen. Anything I save will be much appreciated.

I can provide photos of any particular areas of interest.

I greatly appreciate the effort you all put into the help you give people such as myself on this forum. Thank you in advance for your guidance and recommendations. Feel free to offer suggestions I may not have considered. Now is the time!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Welcome to the forum! (Matt? -- it's at the top of your drawing)

Quote:
The plan is to remove the current wood paneling from the walls to get them to studs and insulation and to remove the plywood from the ceiling for the same. Afterward a new room will be framed up for the live room area. The interior of this room will have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. Isolation clips and hat channel will be installed on the ceiling joists in the live room along with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. All perimeter joints for both layers will be treated with acoustical sealant in between layers. I do want to note that nothing is above the ceiling but attic space. No living areas. There is a standard roof and some plywood installed on the joists for the attic storage. The floor is concrete slab.

1. Is this approach the proper way to gain the most sound reduction in the most cost-effective way? My budget is limited and I'll be doing as much of the work myself as possible to save money and to also ensure no corners are cut. I'm very handy with tools.

If you want to effectively isolate the volumes you're mentioning, you need to build a fully decoupled room in a room. So forget using clips and hat. Most people who are trying to isolate the volumes you are find that two layers of 5/8" drywall gets them close if you make sure to avoid any flanking paths.

Since a bunch of your measurements on your drawing don't make sense I was unable to run your dimensions into a calculator such as Bob Gold's Room Mode Calculator. So I'd suggest you do that and see what you come up with. But for your needs, your general concept of partitioning your space sounds good.

- make sure your doors aren't near corners as you will want to install large bass traps there.
- for your lounge area that will double as a mixing room, situate your computer/mixing desk so that your speakers fire down the long length of the room.
- for your lounge area, make sure that any furniture or appliances (I see a fridge in your picture) are near the back of the room as you will want the front half of the room to be symmetrical.
- for your lounge area, will the large garage door have to function? You ideally want your rear wall to have a ton of insulation on it. You can't have that if your garage door works.

Quote:
2. What is the best way to address the doors? This initial plan will end up having 4 doors. My thought is to do communal door systems for each.

Without knowing where your drive way or rest of your house is, I cannot comment on your door placement short of to keep them away from room corners. Also, 3 foot wide doors are a good idea.

Quote:
3. By separating the rooms - am I able to avoid having to fully decouple the second room? With it's primary function being recreational I'm not terribly concerned (at least initially) with sound reduction from external sources. If my understanding is correct, the sound reduction of the live room would accomplish my goals with the band noise and neighbors.

Nope.

Quote:
4. This is likely a question more geared for the construction phase - How affective are the sound dampening products for electical boxes? I've been considering running the electrical inside the live room in surface mounted condiuts and exposed boxes (I'll need to find something that looks good) to avoid having holes in the drywall.

Some are okay for sure. It's all about maintaining an air tight seal and the mass of your leaf sheathing.

Quote:
5. Cooling & Ventilation! - What is the best way to bring in fresh air, remove humidity, and ensure proper heating and cooling? My thought has been to implement a ductless mini-split system for the live room area and continue using the window unit in the lounge area. I could also consider a 2 zone mini-split. I'll still need to address fresh air.

Zoned ductless mini split might be a great option for your space since you have several rooms. You would just have to install duct work for fresh air in and stale air out. You will need four homemade silencer boxes for your loud jamming room.

Quote:
Do the mini-split systems effectively remove moisture and lower the relative humidity? I mentioned I live in the deep south. Humidity is frequently over 80% outside much of the year. I also leave in one of the highest rain volume cities in the U.S. I don't want my expensive gear getting rusted.

Yes. Therefore you will need a drain or place for the indoor unit to spit it's liquid into!

Quote:
6. I've read mentions of using a first layer of OSB instead of drywall which would allow a screw to be placed anywhere. I'm very intrigued by this idea. Has anyone done something similar? I don't want to reduce the effectiveness of sound reduction but it would be nice to place a screw anywhere for mounting items, etc. What are your thoughts?

It's a great idea if you're able to give up a tiny bit more space! OSB will eat up a whooping 1/8th of an inch more than drywall to achieve the same surface density. It is also slightly more expensive than drywall as well.

Quote:
I've also seen mention of "proxy" type HVAC systems - something where the primary cooling, etc. can occur in the lounge with a properly built system to bring this air into the live room. The "Build it like the pros" book goes over a couple of ideas that I don't think I fully grasp.

I've never heard or "proxy" systems before.

Quote:
Initial budget plan is $8000-$10000. If I must spend more I'll make it happen. Anything I save will be much appreciated.

If you're doing it all yourself, you will save a bunch of money, but you are probably a bit short on your budget (for your jamming room). I know where I live, half of your budget would be spent on the mini split alone not even including hiring a dude to come commission the unit. You can quite easily do a rough estimate of insulation, framing, OSB and drywall supplies. If you're doing a room in a room (which I believe you have to), you will have to include engineered LVL stud for inner leaf ceiling joists. After that, you have to figure out how much you will spend on doors. You can buy blank door slabs pretty cheap, but throw 2 sheets of 3/4" MDF on to them, heavy duty hinges, some 4731 type seals, automatic door bottoms, very hard soft wood (like fir) or hardwood for door frames, automatic door closer and some handles, the prices goes up fast. Now, count how many acoustic doors you need. You may want to reduce the number of doors in your jam room for that reason alone. Or at least frame your walls so that you can cut out sheathing and some framing easily down the road to add more. But, you need at LEAST 4 doors if you want two entries. Silencer boxes aren't cheap to make. For your room, they will eat up probably $1000 worth of MDF and then $200-$300 worth of duct liner. You may want to consider using an ERV to move your air through your ventilation system. Those don't come cheap either!

Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:18 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
Welcome to the forum! (Matt? -- it's at the top of your drawing)

Thanks! You are correct, I'm Matt. It's a pleasure to meet you, Greg!

Quote:
The plan is to remove the current wood paneling from the walls to get them to studs and insulation and to remove the plywood from the ceiling for the same. Afterward a new room will be framed up for the live room area. The interior of this room will have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. Isolation clips and hat channel will be installed on the ceiling joists in the live room along with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. All perimeter joints for both layers will be treated with acoustical sealant in between layers. I do want to note that nothing is above the ceiling but attic space. No living areas. There is a standard roof and some plywood installed on the joists for the attic storage. The floor is concrete slab.

1. Is this approach the proper way to gain the most sound reduction in the most cost-effective way? My budget is limited and I'll be doing as much of the work myself as possible to save money and to also ensure no corners are cut. I'm very handy with tools.

If you want to effectively isolate the volumes you're mentioning, you need to build a fully decoupled room in a room. So forget using clips and hat. Most people who are trying to isolate the volumes you are find that two layers of 5/8" drywall gets them close if you make sure to avoid any flanking paths.

Since a bunch of your measurements on your drawing don't make sense I was unable to run your dimensions into a calculator such as Bob Gold's Room Mode Calculator. So I'd suggest you do that and see what you come up with. But for your needs, your general concept of partitioning your space sounds good.

- make sure your doors aren't near corners as you will want to install large bass traps there.
- for your lounge area that will double as a mixing room, situate your computer/mixing desk so that your speakers fire down the long length of the room.
- for your lounge area, make sure that any furniture or appliances (I see a fridge in your picture) are near the back of the room as you will want the front half of the room to be symmetrical.
- for your lounge area, will the large garage door have to function? You ideally want your rear wall to have a ton of insulation on it. You can't have that if your garage door works.

I want to add some clarifications here: The plan is a room inside a room for the live room area. There will be a double stud, 2 leaf system for the walls. For the walls that border the outside, the brick will be the 1st leaf and the dual drywall/greenglue on the interior of the live room the second leaf. For the wall boarding the lounge and workshop areas, I'll still be utilizing dual stud construction for full wall decoupling.

For the ceiling in this initial plan I was going with the recommendation from The Soundproofing Company, which was to use the clips and channels to decouple. Can you link me to more information on the method you recommended? I'm wanting this to be done well and don't want to screw it up with an incorrect ceiling approach.

-Thanks for the tip to re-arrange the lounge layout, that will be no problem!
-Dually noted on the furniture and appliances.
-The garage door doesn't have to function necessarily. In my mind it did seem nice to be able to open it up on nice days since I have a pool right around the corner of the house from it. The door is manual if that matters. I'm not opposed to not using it either.



Quote:
2. What is the best way to address the doors? This initial plan will end up having 4 doors. My thought is to do communal door systems for each.

Without knowing where your drive way or rest of your house is, I cannot comment on your door placement short of to keep them away from room corners. Also, 3 foot wide doors are a good idea.

Currently, the two exterior doors in the space are already there. They swing inwards and will need to be converted to swing outwards with a dual door system. Since they're already located in the room I don't have many options for moving them. In the layout photo, the door at the bottom, on the garage door side is external access from the main yard/driveway area. The other exterior door is external access from the courtyard. There is space for bass traps where they're currently located. The two additional doors will serve to allow access to the restroom on the other side of my workshop and to the lounge area. I'm with you on 3' doors!

In terms of the construction, is the dual door system for each opening the proper approach? Am I just spending more money on doors and seals if a single door approach would do?


Quote:
3. By separating the rooms - am I able to avoid having to fully decouple the second room? With it's primary function being recreational I'm not terribly concerned (at least initially) with sound reduction from external sources. If my understanding is correct, the sound reduction of the live room would accomplish my goals with the band noise and neighbors.

Nope.

Further clarification needed. In the layout, primitive as it is, you can see the dual stud wall layout for the live room which illustrates the plan to build a room in a room there.
My question is poorly worded and should be: In the lounge, would I need to also use dual walls to maintain the sound reduction of the live room. I do understand that on the wall of the lounge bordering the live room that this would be 2 leaf, dual wall, likely with dual drywall and green glue on the lounge side as well if needed. Please provide further clarification if possible.


Quote:
4. This is likely a question more geared for the construction phase - How affective are the sound dampening products for electical boxes? I've been considering running the electrical inside the live room in surface mounted condiuts and exposed boxes (I'll need to find something that looks good) to avoid having holes in the drywall.

Some are okay for sure. It's all about maintaining an air tight seal and the mass of your leaf sheathing.

Quote:
5. Cooling & Ventilation! - What is the best way to bring in fresh air, remove humidity, and ensure proper heating and cooling? My thought has been to implement a ductless mini-split system for the live room area and continue using the window unit in the lounge area. I could also consider a 2 zone mini-split. I'll still need to address fresh air.

Zoned ductless mini split might be a great option for your space since you have several rooms. You would just have to install duct work for fresh air in and stale air out. You will need four homemade silencer boxes for your loud jamming room.

Can you provide any links or direction for these boxes? To be clear, the ductless mini-split will condition the air in the room, including moisture removal (there will be a drain line installed) and the silencer boxes will be used for incoming/exiting fresh air. I'd like to learn more on this concept so I can visualize placement, etc.
Many of the mini-split systems I've seen say they can be DIY installed. I'm not opposed to hiring it out though as needed.


Quote:
Do the mini-split systems effectively remove moisture and lower the relative humidity? I mentioned I live in the deep south. Humidity is frequently over 80% outside much of the year. I also leave in one of the highest rain volume cities in the U.S. I don't want my expensive gear getting rusted.

Yes. Therefore you will need a drain or place for the indoor unit to spit it's liquid into!

Quote:
6. I've read mentions of using a first layer of OSB instead of drywall which would allow a screw to be placed anywhere. I'm very intrigued by this idea. Has anyone done something similar? I don't want to reduce the effectiveness of sound reduction but it would be nice to place a screw anywhere for mounting items, etc. What are your thoughts?

It's a great idea if you're able to give up a tiny bit more space! OSB will eat up a whooping 1/8th of an inch more than drywall to achieve the same surface density. It is also slightly more expensive than drywall as well.

Sounds like if the budget works OSB is "the way to go".

Quote:
I've also seen mention of "proxy" type HVAC systems - something where the primary cooling, etc. can occur in the lounge with a properly built system to bring this air into the live room. The "Build it like the pros" book goes over a couple of ideas that I don't think I fully grasp.

I've never heard or "proxy" systems before.

There's a portion of the book with an example illustration of an HVAC system such as a window unit or other, located in an adjacent room with air flow built to pull that air into the live room area without having equipment located in the live room.

Quote:
Initial budget plan is $8000-$10000. If I must spend more I'll make it happen. Anything I save will be much appreciated.

If you're doing it all yourself, you will save a bunch of money, but you are probably a bit short on your budget (for your jamming room). I know where I live, half of your budget would be spent on the mini split alone not even including hiring a dude to come commission the unit. You can quite easily do a rough estimate of insulation, framing, OSB and drywall supplies. If you're doing a room in a room (which I believe you have to), you will have to include engineered LVL stud for inner leaf ceiling joists. After that, you have to figure out how much you will spend on doors. You can buy blank door slabs pretty cheap, but throw 2 sheets of 3/4" MDF on to them, heavy duty hinges, some 4731 type seals, automatic door bottoms, very hard soft wood (like fir) or hardwood for door frames, automatic door closer and some handles, the prices goes up fast. Now, count how many acoustic doors you need. You may want to reduce the number of doors in your jam room for that reason alone. Or at least frame your walls so that you can cut out sheathing and some framing easily down the road to add more. But, you need at LEAST 4 doors if you want two entries. Silencer boxes aren't cheap to make. For your room, they will eat up probably $1000 worth of MDF and then $200-$300 worth of duct liner. You may want to consider using an ERV to move your air through your ventilation system. Those don't come cheap either!

With the dual doors, would I need 2 layers of MDF on each door for this system? Meaning 2 for the interior door and 2 for the exterior door in each double door entry?
Honestly, walls seem easy compared to my comprehension of the doors.


Greg


Greg, thank you for your insight! I look forward to continuing this discussion and you've given me some great direction already!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:22 am 
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Good effort quoting. But it's easier to keep it more clean. Just copy the text you want to paste, then hit the quote button at the top of the reply window and paste in the text. Then answer below it. Hopefully that helps with easier to comprehend quotes from ya!

Quote:
I want to add some clarifications here: The plan is a room inside a room for the live room area. There will be a double stud, 2 leaf system for the walls. For the walls that border the outside, the brick will be the 1st leaf and the dual drywall/greenglue on the interior of the live room the second leaf.

Sounds great!

Quote:
For the wall boarding the lounge and workshop areas, I'll still be utilizing dual stud construction for full wall decoupling.

Unless you plan to make a ton of noise inside your lounge and workshop that you need to keep from escaping (or the other way around... say you don't want to hear the rain or traffic while you're working in your workshop!), then there's no point in building those in a studio type construction!

Quote:
For the ceiling in this initial plan I was going with the recommendation from The Soundproofing Company, which was to use the clips and channels to decouple.

Of course they will tell you to use products they sell!

Quote:
Can you link me to more information on the method you recommended?

It's the same concept as the walls. Don't have your inner leaf ceiling touch your outer leaf, period.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21845&p=148893&hilit=inside+out#p148893

Quote:
-The garage door doesn't have to function necessarily. In my mind it did seem nice to be able to open it up on nice days since I have a pool right around the corner of the house from it. The door is manual if that matters. I'm not opposed to not using it either.

Since I don't think you have the budget to build that room as a fully decoupled room in a room, you COULD have it open, but I don't know how you will be able to put the amount of acoustic treatment you need on it and still have it open.

Quote:
In terms of the construction, is the dual door system for each opening the proper approach? Am I just spending more money on doors and seals if a single door approach would do?

You NEED a door on each leaf. If you had no choice but to only have one door, you would have to make a "super door" which would be INSANELY thick and heavy -- I'm talking a lead layer here! It's not worth it. It's cheaper and easier to make two quite heavy insane doors.

Quote:
My question is poorly worded and should be: In the lounge, would I need to also use dual walls to maintain the sound reduction of the live room. I do understand that on the wall of the lounge bordering the live room that this would be 2 leaf, dual wall, likely with dual drywall and green glue on the lounge side as well if needed. Please provide further clarification if possible.

I THINK I've answered this above.

Quote:
Can you provide any links or direction for these boxes?

Just type sliencer box in the search and rip through all the threads that pop up. Look for pictures. Once you find a thread that has pictures, look for one that has some calculations. Hopefully that gets you in the right direction.

Quote:
There's a portion of the book with an example illustration of an HVAC system such as a window unit or other, located in an adjacent room with air flow built to pull that air into the live room area without having equipment located in the live room.

What you're describing is a ducted system. These are also great, but require larger duct work. Larger HVAC supplies = more money. But, it makes for a cleaner look, that's for sure.

Quote:
With the dual doors, would I need 2 layers of MDF on each door for this system? Meaning 2 for the interior door and 2 for the exterior door in each double door entry?
Honestly, walls seem easy compared to my comprehension of the doors.

On SketchUp, look in the 3D warehouse and look up acoustic door and look for the one drawn up by gullfo. You'll see how the extra layers of MDF add a rabbet type step that allows us to achieve bank vault style seals. Also, this extra mass sure helps where we need it because doors are often the biggest source of sound leakage.

So, short answer is yes.

Greg

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:25 pm 
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Quote:
Good effort quoting. But it's easier to keep it more clean. Just copy the text you want to paste, then hit the quote button at the top of the reply window and paste in the text. Then answer below it. Hopefully that helps with easier to comprehend quotes from ya!


Thanks for the tip. I'll do my best moving forward to keep it simple!

Quote:
It's the same concept as the walls. Don't have your inner leaf ceiling touch your outer leaf, period.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21845&p=148893&hilit=inside+out#p148893


So, I've checked out the photos in the thread above and that's fairly wild. The first images seem pretty normal - looks like 2 x 6 joists mounted on the decoupled walls. Then when they start installed the smaller framed out portions things get a bit hazy in my understanding. This is the "inside out" construction I've read about on the forum but not seen. Frame out small portions of the ceiling with your drywall on top of your framing then mount that to your decoupled ceiling joists. Does that about cover it?

Would it also be possible to just install new joists on the decoupled walls and install the drywall/green glue/drywall in the same fashion you would a wall? I'd like to know what the pros & cons of each are I guess.

Quote:
Since I don't think you have the budget to build that room as a fully decoupled room in a room, you COULD have it open, but I don't know how you will be able to put the amount of acoustic treatment you need on it and still have it open.


You're likely correct. Though the thought had occurred to me to simply create a room inside a room for the entire lounge and live room area - essentially a single, large, all-purpose room. I'm still not against this approach frankly. I just figured it would be less expensive overall to have a smaller live room decoupled.

Quote:
Just type silencer box in the search and rip through all the threads that pop up. Look for pictures. Once you find a thread that has pictures, look for one that has some calculations. Hopefully that gets you in the right direction.


Thank you, I'll do that. You mentioned needing 4. Can you explain how you choose the number and where they should be placed?

Quote:
On SketchUp, look in the 3D warehouse and look up acoustic door and look for the one drawn up by gullfo. You'll see how the extra layers of MDF add a rabbet type step that allows us to achieve bank vault style seals. Also, this extra mass sure helps where we need it because doors are often the biggest source of sound leakage.

So, short answer is yes.


Thank you, I've checked out the design on sketchup and have a better understanding. So the best approach is to have 2 of these type doors for each entry.

I'm now looking at my design and wondering how I could reduce the number of entries and doors needed. The 2 doors on either side of my drawing, the exterior doors, are already in the building. At least one would be needed, the one on the bottom of the drawing, for external access for guests. I'd then need to maintain a doorway to reach the bathroom from the inside thus I need one between the live room and the workshop/storage area. By separating the lounge and live room I've created the need for the 4th doorway unless I can come up with some other design for my space. With the biggest potential for a sound leak coming from doorways, having less than 4 would be nice! Not to mention the cost and labor to build 8 of these doors!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Here's a quick layout swap. With this layout I would only have to address the one doorway (2 doors) into the live room area which would save money and effort on the overall build. I would be blocking the garage door on the live room side in this option, which I'm fine with. I'll need to know the best way to address the garage door as the outer leaf in this scenario since it's obviously not as dense as the brick in the rest of the exterior wall.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Another layout option. Ignore the door I forgot in the garage area!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Last one for tonight. This is a revision on the first swap. This layout seems to offer the most space in each area along with reducing the double "super" doors down to a single pair.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:33 pm 
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Last one for tonight. This is a revision on the first swap. This layout seems to offer the most space in each area along with reducing the double "super" doors down to a single pair.

I like this one a lot! The only issue I see would be creating a good mixing room in your lounge. But if that function is secondary, then so be it.

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Frame out small portions of the ceiling with your drywall on top of your framing then mount that to your decoupled ceiling joists. Does that about cover it?

Yep!

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Would it also be possible to just install new joists on the decoupled walls and install the drywall/green glue/drywall in the same fashion you would a wall? I'd like to know what the pros & cons of each are I guess.

Yes you could put drywall on the bottom side of the ceiling joists, but you would then need to install absorption boxes to the under side of that drywall, further lowering your ceiling. Basically, the inside out technique allows you to have the highest acoustic ceiling possible all while offering you a spot to put insulation to improve your sound. Also, it allows you to run electrical throughout the ceiling discreetly. It's simply the best.

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Thank you, I'll do that. You mentioned needing 4. Can you explain how you choose the number and where they should be placed?

1 = outer leaf supply
2 = inner leaf supply
3 = outer leaf return
4 = inner leaf return

They have to go where you can fit them. They are massive.

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The 2 doors on either side of my drawing, the exterior doors, are already in the building.

Are the existing doors solid wood core? If so, you could modify them and add mass/seals to them. If not, you might be better off replacing them. However, in your latest design, you only have the two doors inside which is awesome!

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I'll need to know the best way to address the garage door as the outer leaf in this scenario since it's obviously not as dense as the brick in the rest of the exterior wall.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20963&p=142716&hilit=garage+door#p142716

Check out Soundman2020's SketchUp pictures to see how you go about that. You can add a sheet of OSB first, then a few layers of drywall to it. Seal the heck out of everything and put some green glue compound between at least one of the layers of sheathing!

Greg

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:19 am 
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Hi there Matt, and Welcome to the forum! :)

I'm playing catch-up on the forum, as I've been real busy on other stuff (including summer vacations... :) ), so I'm probably just repeating things that Greg already mentioned....

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I believe I've decided to break the space up into 2 rooms. A live room that will be the primary focus for sound reduction and a 2nd room that will be more for hanging out, doing some control work ( I did mention some recording goals),
Priorities: What are they? Do you just want to play around a little with very rough tracking, and even less mixing? Or do you actually want to do some reasonably serious mixing, such as making demo tracks of your band, or maybe even an album for distribution to friends, family, and fans? The reason I ask is simple: if you need any type of reasonably serious mixing, then this "second room" should be laid out totally as a control room, and then also usable as a lounge, green-room, hang-out room, etc. On the other hand, if there is no need to mix anything at all, then by all means making it primarily a green-room, and just throw laptop in one corner for occasionally recording very rough tracks, without any goal of mixing.

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The plan is to remove the current wood paneling from the walls to get them to studs and insulation and to remove the plywood from the ceiling for the same.
:thu:

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Afterward a new room will be framed up for the live room area. The interior of this room will have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between.
:thu: This has the makings of a well-isolated studio.

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Isolation clips and hat channel will be installed on the ceiling joists in the live room along with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between.
:( Well it DID have the makings of a well-isolated room!... until you got to this part. By not fully decoupling your inner-leaf ceiling from the outer-leaf joists, you are placing a limit on isolation. Yes, clips+hat do help a bit, but there are still limitations on that. Assuming you need good isolation, would recommend doing a proper isolated inner-leaf ceiling that rests on top of the inner-leaf walls. You have enough room height to do that easily, and if you decide to build your ceiling "inside out", then you won't lose much headroom at all, acoustically: just an inch or two.

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I do want to note that nothing is above the ceiling but attic space. No living areas. There is a standard roof and some plywood installed on the joists for the attic storage.
So you will have a three-leaf ceiling, then? :)

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The floor is concrete slab.
:thu:

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I do live in a neighborhood and have neighbors on 2 sides. Both are about 100 - 150 feet away in 2 directions. Currently if I play drums in this space, my wife can VERY faintly hear the kick and snare in our master bedroom which is on the far other side of the house. I could probably play without disturbing her at any time. But that's just drums. I'm sure with other musicians and equipment she'd be able to hear much more.
What about incoming sound? Rain, hail, wind, thunder, sirens, aircraft flying over, traffic, dogs, lawnmowers... and structure-borne sound in the house itself: people walking around, doors closing, water running in pipes, toilet flushing, vacuum cleaner, radio, TV, cell phones, people talking, items dropped on the floor... etc. All of those can trash a good recording session...

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1. Is this approach the proper way to gain the most sound reduction in the most cost-effective way?
Except for the ceiling, yes. And assuming you do the HVAC system, doors, and windows (if any) correctly too. And the electrical system.

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2. What is the best way to address the doors? This initial plan will end up having 4 doors. My thought is to do communal door systems for each.
Each doorway will have two doors on two frames: one for the outer leaf, the other for the inner leaf. Doors will be massively heavy, thick, solid, hung on heavy-duty hinges, with at least two, preferably three, unbroken full-perimeter seals all around the edges, including the threshold. Do not attempt to close the doors by hand: install automatic door closers to do that for you. They will be too heavy to close safely by hand. Do not use latches or handles that require drilling a hole all the way through the door: use only surface-mounted handles. You don't need latches, because the door closer will hold the doors in place against the seals.

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3. By separating the rooms - am I able to avoid having to fully decouple the second room?
Yes. No. Sure! Definitely not! Maybe. Always! Never! :) It all depends on what your goals are here: do you plan to mix semi-seriously in the second room, and/or do you need good isolation between rooms? If so, then you need to decouple both rooms. Do you plan to relax in the green room while the band is going nuts in the live room? Do you plan to perhaps practice one thing in the second room while something else is going on in the live room? Etc. short answer: very likely you do need to isolate both rooms. There are not many scenarios where you would not need that.

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If my understanding is correct, the sound reduction of the live room would accomplish my goals with the band noise and neighbors.
Assuming that you don't ever plan to mix in that second room, or use it as a make-shift vocal booth, or iso booth, and that you also don't plan to have one guy practicing his electric guitar riffs in that room while the rest of the band is jamming in the live room...

When I'm designing a studio, I try to think ahead and imagine all possible situations, to make sure I have them all covered.

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How affective are the sound dampening products for electical boxes? I've been considering running the electrical inside the live room in surface mounted condiuts and exposed boxes (I'll need to find something that looks good) to avoid having holes in the drywall.
That is, indeed, the correct way to do it. You are allowed one single penetration to bring the power feed into the room, then all of the distribution is done with surface-mount raceways, outlets, switches, and light fittings.
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5. Cooling & Ventilation! - What is the best way to bring in fresh air, remove humidity, and ensure proper heating and cooling?
I could write a book on that, and still not cover it completely! :) Very, very basic description: Star by calculating the air volume in each room, assume you will need to circulate all of that through the AHU at least 6 times per hour, and that you will need to replace about 30% of it with fresh air, while dumping the same amount of stale air to the outside world. You will need to move all of that air at a slow enough velocity that it makes no noise when it comes in through the registers. You will need to remove the correct amount of latent heat and sensible heat on each circuit through the AHU. You need to do all of the above while not allowing any sound to move through the HVAC system: only air. You will need oversize ducts, registers, and huge silencer boxes to achieve that. And you need to do all of the above while ensuring that the static pressure of your system does not exceed the capability of your AHU.

That's the one paragraph summary of the thousand-paragraph actual implementation... :)

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My thought has been to implement a ductless mini-split system for the live room area
Fine, as long as you are able to find a unit that can can accomplish all of the above.... :) Do the math to figure out the necessary capacity in BTU or tons, taking into account both the sensible heat load and also the latent heat load, as well as the necessary air flow rate and air flow velocity, as well as the static pressure if you plan to use the fan in that unit to move air through ducts...

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and continue using the window unit in the lounge area.
Bad idea....

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could also consider a 2 zone mini-split.
Or you could get just one single AHU that is able to deal with the full range of situations for both rooms at once... :)

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Do the mini-split systems effectively remove moisture and lower the relative humidity?
See above: that's the latent heat load. An air conditioner cannot cool the air at all until it has first removed the latent heat load from the air. If you under-size the unit, it will only ever deal with latent heat and never do any cooling. If you over-size the unit, it will run very short cooling cycles that cause wild swings in temperature and humidity. You need to do the math, to make sure you are dimensioning the unit correctly, to handle both of the worst-case scenarios.

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Humidity is frequently over 80% outside much of the year. I also leave in one of the highest rain volume cities in the U.S. I don't want my expensive gear getting rusted.
You also don't want to be re-tuning your instruments every few minutes, and have the tone of some of your mics changing, as the temperature and humidity change! You want them to remain fairly constant... thus, you need to your math carefully...

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6. I've read mentions of using a first layer of OSB instead of drywall which would allow a screw to be placed anywhere. I'm very intrigued by this idea. Has anyone done something similar?
I do that on pretty much all the studios I design these days. It just makes things so much easier.

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I don't want to reduce the effectiveness of sound reduction but it would be nice to place a screw anywhere for mounting items, etc. What are your thoughts?
Then design your isolation system correctly! :) Do the math, taking into account the mass of the OSB and the drywall, and the air gap, and the insulation, to make sure that your MSM resonant frequency is low enough and the isolation is high enough to meet your needs.... :)

Math.... More math.... It's what studio design is all about...

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I've also seen mention of "proxy" type HVAC systems - something where the primary cooling, etc. can occur in the lounge with a properly built system to bring this air into the live room.
I'm not a big fan of that (no pun intended!), and it is likely not allowed by your local building code. ASHRAE guidelines (and many building codes) state that you cannot dump all of the stale used air from one living space into another living space, and in essence that's what you would be doing. You can only use that method if the plenum room is not a living space: eg, closet, storage area, utility room, etc. In other words, normally there are no people in that room.

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:43 pm 
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What does it take to create a good mixing room out of the lounge space?

Primary goal is for a space to create and rehearse music with others. If the lounge can be a great place to mix as well, even if it means completing the project in 2 phases with the live room first, I'm willing to go that route.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:08 pm 
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What does it take to create a good mixing room out of the lounge space?

Read some control room design threads on the forum. You'll catch on quick.

Basically, your entire rear wall needs to be thick treatment. If you want an amazing control room, you will want to soffit mount your speakers. There are basic treatment rules that will get you pretty good acoustic response. Then there is a next level type of treatment which is done in a step by step manner with each new device purpose built after taking acoustic measurements. In short, you want a clutter free symmetrical front half of the room. You want the speakers to shoot down the long length of the room. You want your mix position to be roughly at 38% of the depth of the long room. Again, after you read some threads, you'll have a better idea. You'd be silly not to at least try your best to make it a decent mixing environment!

Greg

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:19 am 
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I tend to agree. I guess my question could be phrased as- Does the layout proposed previously (minus furniture positions) allow for a decent mixing environment to be built? Even if it's done in the future? If not, now is the time to consider steering layout decisions at least for how the live room impacts the mixing room shape, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:42 am 
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Does the layout proposed previously (minus furniture positions) allow for a decent mixing environment to be built? Even if it's done in the future? If not, now is the time to consider steering layout decisions at least for how the live room impacts the mixing room shape, etc.

I would try to add a door from outside into the live room. I would move the door that goes from the control room into the live room more into the middle of the wall. I would block off the doors in the control room that are on the north and south ends of the picture as those would be the front and back walls that would both need a lot of treatment. Then, I would put the door that goes from the workshop into control room also in the middle of the wall. Orienting the doors like that would:

- allow front and rear wall treatment in the control room
- not eat up the very important corners that are typically used for large bass trapping
- allow easy entry into the live room with gear (you COULD ditch the doors that go outside from the live room, but that would mean you would have to load gear through the control room --- 3ft wide doors here would be very important to have!)
- still have access to the recording area through the workshop --> having exit doors in the live room would allow you to get into your entire studio space without having to go through the workshop.

Note: You can leave the doors at the north and south side of your control room in place. You would just have to block them off. You also COULD leave the one at the front of your control room (I'm not sure whether you want it at the north or south side of the room). But it wouldn't be super handy as you'd have to walk delicately around your speakers/desk area. In other words it wouldn't be usable for moving gear through.

After you try moving around doors, draw up some furniture layouts in the control room area. Draw speakers, desk, chair and any other stuff you want and post the pics so we can check it out!

Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:24 am 
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Hi there Matt, and Welcome to the forum! :)

I'm playing catch-up on the forum, as I've been real busy on other stuff (including summer vacations... :) ), so I'm probably just repeating things that Greg already mentioned....


Thank you for your input, it's greatly valued!

Quote:
Priorities: What are they? Do you just want to play around a little with very rough tracking, and even less mixing? Or do you actually want to do some reasonably serious mixing, such as making demo tracks of your band, or maybe even an album for distribution to friends, family, and fans? The reason I ask is simple: if you need any type of reasonably serious mixing, then this "second room" should be laid out totally as a control room, and then also usable as a lounge, green-room, hang-out room, etc. On the other hand, if there is no need to mix anything at all, then by all means making it primarily a green-room, and just throw laptop in one corner for occasionally recording very rough tracks, without any goal of mixing.


Priority is a great sounding live room with enough sound reduction to allow my band to rehearse. We would love record rehearsals as well as get as good of quality recordings as we can within reason. As for mixing, I'm not even sure I have a good ear for it. We do have a member of the band that is into this a good bit. We can take recording files back and forth as needed or I can host them and give access over the internet. That said, if it's not terribly difficult to get a decent mixing room and it can align with my budget and other goals I'm all for it! I do agree that it can double as a lounge. How should I change the layout or design to accomplish this?

Quote:
:( Well it DID have the makings of a well-isolated room!... until you got to this part. By not fully decoupling your inner-leaf ceiling from the outer-leaf joists, you are placing a limit on isolation. Yes, clips+hat do help a bit, but there are still limitations on that. Assuming you need good isolation, would recommend doing a proper isolated inner-leaf ceiling that rests on top of the inner-leaf walls. You have enough room height to do that easily, and if you decide to build your ceiling "inside out", then you won't lose much headroom at all, acoustically: just an inch or two.


Yes, Gregor has corrected my direction here. He's recommended a "inside/out" ceiling as you mention. I'm all for it and will proceed in that direction. I still need more information perhaps. I did look at some designs on Sketchup.

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So you will have a three-leaf ceiling, then? :)


Please guide me. I'm happy to remove the attic floor to create the isolation I want.

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What about incoming sound? Rain, hail, wind, thunder, sirens, aircraft flying over, traffic, dogs, lawnmowers... and structure-borne sound in the house itself: people walking around, doors closing, water running in pipes, toilet flushing, vacuum cleaner, radio, TV, cell phones, people talking, items dropped on the floor... etc. All of those can trash a good recording session...


I've only been in the house a month or so and I can tell you this. There are trains coming frequently! They are pretty audible. I'd like to also prevent those being picked up by our mics if possible in the live room.

Quote:
Each doorway will have two doors on two frames: one for the outer leaf, the other for the inner leaf. Doors will be massively heavy, thick, solid, hung on heavy-duty hinges, with at least two, preferably three, unbroken full-perimeter seals all around the edges, including the threshold. Do not attempt to close the doors by hand: install automatic door closers to do that for you. They will be too heavy to close safely by hand. Do not use latches or handles that require drilling a hole all the way through the door: use only surface-mounted handles. You don't need latches, because the door closer will hold the doors in place against the seals.


Thanks! This will be the plan!

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That is, indeed, the correct way to do it. You are allowed one single penetration to bring the power feed into the room, then all of the distribution is done with surface-mount raceways, outlets, switches, and light fittings.


Perfect, this is easier anyway!

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I do that on pretty much all the studios I design these days. It just makes things so much easier.


Noted! Proceeding with this plan if the budget allows.

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Then design your isolation system correctly! :) Do the math, taking into account the mass of the OSB and the drywall, and the air gap, and the insulation, to make sure that your MSM resonant frequency is low enough and the isolation is high enough to meet your needs.... :)

Math.... More math.... It's what studio design is all about...


Yea, this is the part that stumps me. I think I'm generally a pretty sharp guy until I run into your explanations of how to do the math on the forum then my head explodes. I honestly don't know what I'm doing here...

Sounds like a properly sized mini split HVAC will work well as long as we're able to properly address fresh air as well. More math right!?


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