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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:52 am 
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Well, guess what... It's design presentation time again! Same principles, slightly larger CR, slightly smaller LR, same DR...

This is the largest CR I could come up with (18,5m2), in a LR-CR-DR configuration, without compromising room ratios, viewing angles, CR symmetry, area coverage, etc. It's simply impossible with this kind of area width and with those columns getting in the way... :(

I haven't decided which one of the room configurations I'll use (LR-CR or LR-CR-DR). I like both designs, each one has its cons and pros... I guess I'll decide when the time comes for the construction phase to start. In the mean time, feel free to comment on anything you like.

Cheers,

John


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:43 pm 
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Lou-"In 999.99 cases out of a thousand, I would opt for your LR-CR-DR design, with one exception that I’ll get to in a moment"
Is that one of those made up statistics that Xspace was banging on about? :D

Sooo, more to the point. Can you afford this last design?

It looks pretty good. if you can guarantee that after construction you have sufficient isolation from traffic noise with the funds you have then go for it.
I would build in stages. Finish off the live room completely first to see if it works.
If it doesn't you will need to add layers to the build, eating up funds.
lil

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:06 am 
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Hey lil, thanks for visiting my thread, really appreciate your feedback!

lilith_envy wrote:
Lou-"In 999.99 cases out of a thousand, I would opt for your LR-CR-DR design, with one exception that I’ll get to in a moment"
Is that one of those made up statistics that Xspace was banging on about? :D


That was made up? :shock:

Lou... :P

lilith_envy wrote:
Can you afford this last design?


I was afraid of that question... :oops: I haven't actually sat down to calculate the costs for this design but I think it's gonna be less expensive than my first 4-room design and
more expenisve than my 2-room design... I'll get to it when I have more time and I'll get back to you with the results.

lilith_envy wrote:
It looks pretty good. if you can guarantee that after construction you have sufficient isolation from traffic noise with the funds you have then go for it.


Every day I get busy with this project I think about this... :? Is it gonna be sufficient enough to block all that noise from vehicles just outside the wall or from the garage floor above? I really don't know... I'm gonna run some proper tests when the garage floors will be build to determine the actual isolation I will need. That's why I have modified my layout specs so many times, having thicker and thicker walls every time... More mass, more air, more mass... I'm afraid I'm gonna reach a point in this project that I will be face to face with the painful truth: nothing I can do is going to be enough... :(

lilith_envy wrote:
I would build in stages. Finish off the live room completely first to see if it works.If it doesn't you will need to add layers to the build, eating up funds.


Of course you're right, it would be foolish to finish the whole thing just to find out that it's worthless. I have to buld the whole outer leaf though (the one foot concrete wall surrounding the studio), get some measurements and then, if it looks promising, build the inner leaf for the live room. If it works, great! If it doesn't, I'll demolish the wall and rent the place for parking. Still, that's gonna be an expensive experiment but I'm prepared to take the risk.

Thanks again for your comments,

Cheers

John


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:55 pm 
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OK, this is an estimate of the expenses that follow my two final designs (LRCR and LRCRDR).

Surprisingly, the difference between the two designs is not that much to consider having two budgets (it's about 5000 euros (7000$)).

Walls (solid concrete blocks, steel frames, drywall, insulation, floor finish, windows, doors) will be about 25000 euros (35000$).
HVAC system (units, channels, silencers) will be about 5000 euros (7000$).
Electrical (mains switch board, plugs, sockets, cables, lights, dimmer (maybe), secutiry lines) will be another 5000 euros (7000$).
Plumbing (wc, sinks, insulation, high pressure pump) will be about 1000 euros (1500$).
Contructor will be free (I have to convince my brother for that though... :roll: )

Above expenses include work hours.

Total: more than 35000 euros (50000$).

Ouch! :cry:

And that doesn't include equipment... How much will it be with minimum equipment (a pair of monitors, 24 channel mixer console, drums, guitar, bass, keyboards, two guitar one bass one keyboard amplifiers, microphones, furniture) is something that I don't want to consider it right now. I'm still trying to digest the first estimate... :cry:

Cheers,

John

PS: :cry:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:45 am 
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Hello friends, I wish Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year for everyone here! :yahoo:

This is very embarrasing for me to say, but this whole thread was for nothing! :shock: Well... not for nothing, but let me finish. :?

I had a very interesting meeting with my brother about the progress of our "little project". I told him a few things about the studio and he simply announced me that the place I chose for the studio is bad for business, because I take the place of 5 parking slots! :shock: And I hate that he's right... :evil: It's too much to give away a steady income, just for the fun of it... :cry:

I was ready to collapse when he offered me the place we were considering to use as storage houses, on the other side of the garage, same floor. :? There is a picture of the whole floor, with the area I was offered separated from the rest of the floor with the dark concrete wall and layed out with wood floor. The rest of the floor is marked for explanation. P is for possible parking space... :roll:

110m2 coverage, 20m2 more than my first choice, more rectangular, away form the car lift, three pros :thu: but also with two great cons :?: , a bloody pier getting in the middle of my way :evil: (picture below) and my neighbours are very noisy :evil: (water pumps, boiler, lift, picture below).

Nothing changes as far as construction is conserned. Concrete and more concrete all around. 3m (10f) height, dimensions are in the sketchup file I attached.

Well... that was fun, wasn't it! :roll: A new place to play with! :horse: Seriously, if I try to remember the hours I've spent with the place I chose first, I would lose my mind for sure... :cry: If I didn't think that I got better and wiser as far as this "building-a-studio" project is conserned, because of these hours, I would give it up... :cry:

I'll try to find a solution with the new space (that pier is getting on my nerves already :evil: ), in the meantime, if you think of something that could help me, please, don't hold it inside... :oops:

Best wishes,

John


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:45 am 
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Hello there friends, this is an update of the Garage Studioi project's status. The project, as it was concieved and designed so far, is officially buried. Goverment laws put the last nails on the project's coffin... :cry:

I went to the goverment agency to ask for details of getting a license for the studio and they stated that every business based on an underground floor should have a minimum of 4m (12f) floor to ceiling height. :shock:

I have only 3m (9f) of height (floor slab to ceiling slab)... :cry:

I'm never gonna get a license and I'm never gonna get paid for renting the facility to other musicians. I'm never gonna get my money invested on the project back (not that I was expecting to but I hoped at least to have a small income to cover my monthly expenses :roll: ).

So, I have two choices: forget all about this project and continue to spend my time in that shithole (excuse my language) that we (me and my band) call studio or modify this project to suit MY and my band's needs.

I decided to go with the second choise. Playing drums and having music in my life kept me going through some very hard shit (excuse my language again) and I owe them that much. I owe it to myself...

So, considering all the above, I took a shot designing my personal studio on the space my brother offered me (pics and sketchup file below).

This is a CR - LR configuration, including a small area for the main entrance and for a kitchen/WC. CR coverage is 16,5m2 and LR coverage is 25,5m2 (acoustic treatment is not included). I tried to stay as far as possible away from the south part of the basement, to keep my distance from the lift/boiler/pumps noise.

For wall construction, check my previous design, nothing's changed about that. When we finish building the two floor basements and take some sound measurements, I will modify the wall's design accordingly.

There's no need for a window between the CR and LR anymore, I'm gonna have a video camera in the LR, recording our performance and a monitor in the CR displaying the video feed.

For the CR, I'm gonna have a pair of Genelec 1032A speakers and a 32" TV/monitor in soffits (I could have them on stands but I really want to build those soffits). On the back wall, superchunck bass traps on both corners and a slat resonator in the middle. Side walls will be covered with slat resonators. Floor will be pseudo-floated (from top to bottom: wooden floor parquet, a layer of plywood, a layer of drywall and rigid fiberglass or sand). Ceiling will be covered with two layers of drywall and insulation, with a cloud in the center of the room (wide enough to include the listening position).

For the LR, I'm thinking of superchunck bass traps on all four corners, slat resonators in between, a curved panel absorber to cover that bloody pier (and provide a bit of diffusion?) and two clouds on the left and right side of the room respectively. For floor and ceiling see the CR above.

Slat resonators will be tuned AFTER I finish building the rooms and sound measurements are taken. And they will be made removable for more absorbtion, if necessary.

That's all folks... Your feedback (flame or praise) is something that I always, eagerly, expect (and rarely get... :oops: ).

Respect,

John


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:47 am 
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You are getting damn good at sketchup John :)

I like the design, it uses the space available really well. My only suggestion would be to raise the front speakers so they sit over a glass window with full view into the studio.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:13 am 
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Hi John! I hope the New Year has found you more healthy and more busy than ever! :D

John Sayers wrote:
You are getting damn good at sketchup John :)

Thanks! And I haven't even touched the Layer/Component functions yet... :wink:

John Sayers wrote:
I like the design, it uses the space available really well.

You saying that is like music in my ears man! Those piers gave me a hard time trying to place the rooms around them and I also had to stay away from my noisy neighbours (lift, boiler, water pumps) but I think it turned out pretty well at the end. Even my brother will be satisfied when he finds out that I left more than 30m2 of space available for those storage rooms we were planning to have... :)

John Sayers wrote:
My only suggestion would be to raise the front speakers so they sit over a glass window with full view into the studio.

John, I was ahead of you on this one man! :lol: More than a week ago, I left you a message on the MeowMix thread, asking you for details on raising the speakers above the windows! I was aiming for a corner CR at that time, having a full view of the LR with that bloody pier in the middle. But then, I got creamed by the 4m height rule and I decided that a window just doesn't worth the money and effort for just me and my band... A monitor and a video camera should be more than enough for us... I really appreciate your suggestion though... :wink:

Best wishes,

John


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:51 pm 
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John - to create that glass system you have to cantilever the whole front section containing the speakers off the rafters supported by a beam.

here's a pic from Jon's 3D model. You can see the second beam is holding up the studio front wall skin.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:24 am 
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John Sayers wrote:
John - to create that glass system you have to cantilever the whole front section containing the speakers off the rafters supported by a beam.

here's a pic from Jon's 3D model. You can see the second beam is holding up the studio front wall skin.


Talking about getting good at sketchup... I feel a complete beginner seeing your 3D image John... :oops:

I could see the beam holding the front wall and the soffits in place above the glass from the pics below. This construction looks very indimidating though, if you don't have detailed schematics and a professional to guide you... Lucky Jon... :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:40 am 
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Since I'm sort of finalized my design (I've tried different orientations of the CR-LR rooms but with those piers getting in the way, I either get smaller rooms or get them too close to the noisy south of the basement) and with the day of construction still very far away, I decided to pay attention to the little details of the design, aka the walls' design and the soffit design. I'll begin with my walls, if you don't mind...

I knew from the beginning of this project that my main goal for isolation would be to keep the noise OUT of my studio rather than IN. And I know that, until I get some measurements of the sound levels I'm gonna get OUTSIDE of the studio from cars coming and going and from structure bourne noise and vibrations, I can't determine the actual level of isolation I'm gonna need. My (and from people's comments here) guess is, high levels of low frequency isolation would be a must (imagine a Harley Davidnson Fat Boy parking 1m (3f) outside my studio's wall and you'll get the picture... :shock: ).

Now, what makes a wall assembly efficient? Quoting Rod Gervais from his book "Home Recording Studio - Build It Like the Pros", page 36: "Every assembly essentially creates a panel that will have it's own center frequency... ...A resonant frequency will pass through a wall like a hot knife through butter... create assemblies with resonant frequencies below 10Hz..."

OK, first stop, Resonant Frequency. After a bit of searching I found the formula that calculates the resonant frequency of a double wall assembly (it was in one of the document that AVare throws out occasionaly :wink: , the NRCC-44692. After some formula substitutions (pages 4-5), the equation for
the mass-air-mass resonance of a double wall with it's air cavity filled with sound absorbing materiali is the following:

Fr=1900*sqrt((m1+m2)/(m1*m2*d)) where

Fr is the resonant frequency in Hz
1900 is the constant factor for a cavity filled with sound absorbing material
m1 is the mass of the first surface layer in kg/m2
m2 is the mass of the second surface layer in kg/m2
and d is the depth of the enclosed air cavity in mm

m1 and m2 actually denotes surface densities

In my design, I'm using two kinds of wall assemblies, concrete-air-drywall for the perimeter wall and drywall-air-drywall for the walls between rooms. Fortunately for me, I didn't have to search around for concrete blocks and drywall panels surface density values, there is a table on page 6 of the NRCC-44692 document showing the surface densities of wall materials including CB and GB.

In Greece, typical thickness of concrete blocks used is usually 150mm. Surface density for those is 116,25 kg/m2. Surface density of the typical 16mm gypsum board that is used here is 9,84 kg/m2. When I substitued these values to the above equation, having d, the air cavity, varied from 10mm to 200mm, the table attached below was formed. If it's too small to read, you can get a larger version HERE.

f(x, y) is the resonant frequency of the various combinations of assemblies I calculated with varying d. t is the overall thickness of that particular wall assembly in cm. For example, f(16, 32) is the resonant frequency of the wall assembly with a layer of 16mm drywall on one side and two 16mm layers of drywall on the other.

I have to get some office work done for tomorrow now :evil: , so, I'll leave it like this and come back later to continue this study. In the meantime, pleeease, tell me your opinion of this study and give me any comments based on the data showed in the table.

Thank you very much for your time and patience.

John


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:29 am 
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OK, where were we? Oh, yes, resonant frequency of a double wall assembly (I should have started with the soffits... :roll: ). Well, since noone offered any opinions on the calculated data, I'll give it a shot... :wink:

Let's start with the drywall-drywall assembly. No suprises here, frequency drops if we increase the mass on each panel or the cavity between them. Frequency drops from 270,9Hz to 60,6Hz for a single drywall layer on each frame, from 234,6Hz to 52,5Hz for a single drywall layer on one frame and two layers on the other and from 191,5Hz to 42,8Hz for two layers of drywall on each side. An interesting point here is that, if we decide to use a drywall-drywall wall assembly, we could have a 60,6Hz resonant frequency with a 23,2cm thick wall (single layer of drywall on each side) OR have the SAME frequency, DOUBLE the mass (that's gonna be helpful when we get to the frequency region controlled by Mass Law) with two layers of drywall on each side and 6,8cm thinner wall. 6,8cm is not such a huge difference I hear you say, so get the cavity back to where it was and you'll have a resonant frequency of 42,8Hz with 26,4cm wall thickness (less than a foot).

Not bad for my wall separating the Control Room and the Live Room, not bad at all! Unfortunately, resonant frequency at 42,8Hz for my perimeter wall is TOO high (Harley Davidnson parking, remember? :roll: ). I have to get much lower than that AND much higher for mass... :(

Introducing... the concrete wall! Now it gets really interesting! Compare the f(32, 32) and the f(16,150) data sets. The single layer of drywall on one side, concrete blocks on the other has a HIGHER resonant frequency than our two layers of drywall on each side champion we discussed! Even if we replaced the 3,2cm thick double layers of drywall with 15cm concrete blocks, we decreased the thickness of the other side! Conclusion: BOTH panels' thickness should be equally considered on our walls. Same conclusion applies if we compare f(32, 150) with f(16, 300) data sets. Stick with two layers of drywall on one side of your wall boys and girls... :wink:

Another interesting point arises when we compare f(32, 150) and f(32, 300) data sets. Even if we doubled our concrete block wall, the difference in resonant frequency starts at only 5,4Hz for 1cm of cavity depth and reaches... 1,2Hz for 20cm cavity depth (lowest frequency at 32,7Hz and 31,5Hz respectively)! Have we just sacrificed 15cm of space for 5,4Hz or 1,2Hz difference in resonant frequency? :shock: I don't think so! :evil: Hold your horses, I hear you say. You forgot about Mass Law. Well, a 15cm thick concrete block wall is pretty massive, don't you think? And according to Mass Law, I'm gonna get a 6db TL increase. Does it worth it, considering the additional cost? IMHO, no way! On my last design, I used the two drywall layers - 20cm cavity - 30cm side of concrete blocks assembly. Watch me how fast I'm gonna modify this to 15cm concrete blocks wall side... Unless, someone has an objection that would like to share... :wink: Seriously, 32,7Hz (the resonant frequency from the f(32, 150) data set with 20cm of cavity depth) is pretty low but... is it low enough for my situation? I honestly don't know... What do you think?

Only with the last three data sets, concrete blocks on both sides (I'll finish this soon, I promise! :oops: ) we have a resonant frequency lower than 20Hz. Since we can get that frequency range from the f(150,150) data with less wall thickness than the other two data sets, I'm not going to further elaborate on those. If we compare the f(32, 150) with cavity depth 20cm (32,7Hz, lowest frequency) and the f(150, 150) with cavity depth 16cm (19,7Hz, first frequency below 20Hz), we get a 6,8cm wall thickness difference, which is of little importance in comparison to the 13Hz difference in resonance. Cost of construction on the other hand is of huge importance to me... :(

Conclusions from this study? I'm all ears (or eyes :lol: ) for comments but from my point of view, I cannot determine the wall assembly I'm going to use unless I determine the sound level and frequency range of sources resiting outside the studio. Theoretically speaking, if I can afford the 15cm concrete blocks - 15cm cavity depth - 15cm concrete blocks wall assembly, I'll use that, if I can't, I'll use the 3,2cm two drywall layers - 20cm cavity depth - 15cm concrete blocks assembly. I think I can afford that... :?

Now, excuse me but I have to break a concrete wall down in half... :mrgreen:

Respect,

John


Last edited by jlemon on Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:19 am 
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Hang on, John! One quick question: have you actually MEASURED the spectrum of the Harley's (and other offending vehicles!)? If that is your major concern, then why not do some real measurements on real offenders, to find out where your real problem will be.

Just a suggestion.

Or did you already do that?


- Stuart -

PS. Thanks for figuring all the numbers! Very useful info there!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:10 pm 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
have you actually MEASURED the spectrum of the Harley's (and other offending vehicles!)?

jlemon wrote:
I cannot determine the wall assembly I'm going to use unless I determine the sound level and frequency range of sources resiting outside the studio

In simple words, no... :) But it's right at the top of on my check list, as soon as the two garage floors are build.

Soundman2020 wrote:
Thanks for figuring all the numbers! Very useful info there!

I hope I didn't make a fool of myself for using the wrong equation or substituing the wrong data... thanks man! :thu:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:50 am 
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Hello friends, I hope you are doing fine with your lives!

Searching through this forum for soffit designs that I could study, I realised that there weren't any that offer the kind of detail I need. John's and Barefoot's designs are excellent to get you started, lots of work-in-progress/finished photos to give you the look&feel of the project but that's about it... Since I never did any major carpentry (building my dog's house doesn't really count, does it? :roll: ), I felt the need for 3D implementations. I searched for sketchup designs but the only decent one I found was John's Small Studio design. JohnS was generous enough to give us a great soffit design to work with and that's exactly what I did.

I designed the soffits based on my Control Room's dimensions, front wall is a bit narrow but I managed to sqeeze them all in there. For speaker dimensions, I used the Genelecs 1032A model, although I read somewhere that they are too big for a small Control Room like mine. Any thoughts on that? Any other models that I should consider? Monitor soffit should be big enough to hold a 32" flat monitor/tv.

You can check each individual component of the soffit design (frames, insulation, plywood etc.) by using the appropriate tabs (it was about time to start using components and layers :roll: ). I didn't use acoustic hangers like JohnS did, I used corner superchunck bass traps instead.

If you check my design out (I wish JohnS or Barefoot would comment on this one), and you think that I missed or misplaced something, anything, please, tell me about it, so that I could fix it.

Until next time,

John


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