John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Hi Everyone,

I am starting to design my new studio. I've read a lot on the forum and found the information invaluable. This forum is a great connection between literature on all the subjects related to the building of a studio and reality.

With that said, I still have a lot of questions that need answering hence this new topic.

So first thing first details : this is my new space approx 80 m2.[see attached docs]
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CR = control room
Studio = Live room
Iso booth = well iso booth =)

I plan to build a control room a studio and a small iso booth. I'm still in the "how much is this going to cost" phase but if it all plans out I guess I could start building in a couple of months. The focus is on the control room design as I probably will have a lot of mixing to do so this will have to be setup first. The roof is actually rotten so we'll have to completely redo that but we'll add a new floor so we can use the new 1st floor as offices maybe or for later expansion.

I've chosen the corner control room because I can arrange more different spaces and because this way I have less parallel walls. I'm opened to suggestions. Also there will be a WC to be added [see attached docs] but I don't really have an idea there.

The idea is that this area should be accessible from both the cr and the studio with minimum disturbance. I first thought of some sort of sound lock with three doors but I'm not sure how to draw this to avoid a 3 leaves system.

Questions (unsorted) :
1. I don't need windows to see outside in the control room, but i'd like to keep some of them in the studio and the iso booth. They need replacing so I will have to sort that out anyway. What do you think ? Should I brick everything ?
2. While I understand the principle of inside out walls I don't understand how they should be built in between rooms. once you have built one side how do you build the other ? (maybe this is a very stupid question but I can't figure it out)
3. About the MSM calculation I understand that you have to try and put the resonant frequency as low as possible preferably below 20hz ideally. I've tried using the fn=0.5PI*(K/M)^0.5 formula but I'm not sure this is right, I get very odd results
I'm hoping someone could explain to me how that formula can be used in our situation. Also in terms of units that have to be used. I have K in N/m2 and M in kg/m2.
From what I understand, K should be the stiffness of air over 1m2 K=1*1*(airgap between the two masses) and M is the Mass per sqm of one of the two masses considering the other mass as fixed. is that right ? Shouldn't it include the fact that the two masses are interacting with one another ?
4. I do not have the exact elevation yet I have a few ideas but I'l like to sort out the layout first. Although I can say that approx height should be around 3m
5. can you help sorting out this bathroom problem ? should it also include a small kitchen. In my experience it's best if the kitchen is separated but since it is a small studio it might be more convivial to have it in the studio (live room).

I hope I'm making myself clear, English is not my first language I do not know the terminology very well.

Ok so first post i usually the one that hurts the most, I hope you will find here enough information to help, if you have any questions please ask.

Matthieu

"The roof is actually rotten so we'll have to completely redo that but we'll add a new floor so we can use the new 1st floor as offices maybe or for later expansion."


What does the above statement mean? Are you attempting to build on an elevated/2nd story?

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Hi, thanks for your quick reply.

Yes, I have an architect helping me on that part to make sure it is possible. The idea is to build a second story on top after removing the actual roof. The weight will certainly be spread on a structure made with IPE beams that have yet to be dimensioned. I will probably know more next week after I meet with the structural engineer.

In the meantime,


I figured that one out, I should build the walls on the ground then get some help to lift them up into place.

Still need your help for the other questions. Thanks very much for your time.

Would you need anything else to help ?

Sir, you do not want to build this room in an elevated structure...you would be better off on the ground.

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Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Hi there again,

I may not have been very clear so I took the time to do a quick elevation drawing to give you a better idea of what's going on.



So the jazz studio will be on ground floor. Offices will be on the 1st on the elevated structure so I guess isolation between the two stories has to be very efficient.
The access to the 1st floor will be possible by an outside stairway.

What do you think of that ?

I think we are talking about the studio being on the first floor and the offices will be on the second floor.


But the recording room is on the ground, so that is a good thing

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Yes both control room and studio/live room + isobooth are on the same level that is on the ground and the offices are on the upper floor.

What do you think of the layout ? Do you think there is a better solution ? Once I'm sure this is the best layout I'll start drawing elevation.
Can you help or redirect me to a resource explaining in details how to handle MAM calculations ?

Thanks very much.

Matt

I like the control room, but I ain't in love with the overall layout, the tracking room, iso booth in the control room, etc.

But that's just me, it may be/look better in a bigger room.



"Can you help or redirect me to a resource explaining in details how to handle MAM calculations ? "
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/irc/c ... t-239.html

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Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

You build it lying down flat on the floor, then you lift it up to stand vertically. Of course, the frame with all the drywall on it is pretty darn HEAVY, so you need lots of strong arms when you get to the "lifting up" part...

Look around the forum: there are quite a few examples of people who have done this, and many have photos showing the sequence of how the did it.

- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Might be one of those cultural things: in some countries the ground floor and the first floor are the same thing, and the floor directly above ground is the second floor, but in other countries the floor directly above ground is the first floor!

When I moved from South Africa to Chile, it took me a while to get used to there not being any "G" button on the elevators, and figuring out that "1" means "G", while "2" really means "1"... if you get my drift!

Confusing....

- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

I get it...I think here in the portable city of Mobile Alabama, they have a "B" for basement in elevator shafts...

So call me before you come over here because it just gets even more weird

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Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Do you think I should make the control room a little bit smaller to allow more space for the live room and iso booth ? It is actually also one of my problem, I designed the control room dimensions according to the Auralex 101 and a few other tips I gathered on the forum and literature I could get my hands on, Do you think I could make it smaller ?


Thanks,

Matt

Actually Matt, I do not know what size it is now

You should make these things available in the print....often that is all I look at, I do not read this stuff...well, sometimes if it interests me, yours does, but still, what are the dimensions, I do not know.

I think for me, the control room chops up the live room area to the point of potential acoustic issues, just looking at it.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Matt, to be honest, I wouldn't go with that layout at all: it is going to be hard (and expensive) to build, the acoustic properties are not predictable at all (since it isn't rectangular), it doesn't seem to be making good use of space, and it leaves the LR with a rather uncomfortable shape with lousy sight lines!

Just to set the record straight about internet myths and legends for studio design: the widespread urgent need to have non-parallel walls is highly over-rated, and often arises out of a misunderstanding of the basic purpose of non-parallel walls. Put simply: it isn't that important. There are very, very different reasons for having non-parallel walls in CR and LR. In the LR you are most likely going for the "character" of the room, giving it some kind of signature, and trying to kill flutter echo, while in the CR you are aiming for a reflection free zone around your primary listening position, and also perhaps eliminating flutter. Two very different concepts. CR walls are splayed at specific angles for specific purposes, mostly based on mathematics/geometry. LR walls are angled for acoustic effect, and probably not based on mathematics/geometry.

And having said that, some great designers prefer not to angle walls at all, and just have plain old rectangular rooms with strategically placed treatment to take care of the issues that supposedly only angled walls can accomplish!

Anyway, that's my long-winded way of saying that you can probably come up with a much better design for that space! Just ignore the myths that you might have read on the internet about the utter importance of certain room shapes and rules, and simplify your design to something that makes more sense from a practical and acoustic point of view. Take a look at John's designs, for example, and I'm sure you'll be able to see how simple shapes can still make great rooms.

I'd also suggest that you post more info about your design goals, and your budget. Specifically: what are you going to do in this studio? Commercial or hobby? Styles / genres? How much isolation do you need? etc.

I reckon it's much more important to start out by defining what YOU want from YOUR studio, what YOU can afford on YOUR budget, what YOU need for YOUR isolation / treatment / lifestyle, rather than taking a nice looking but complex design that someone has on a web site somewhere, and trying to mangle and warp it it to fit your space.


- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Stuart, I love your post. xSpace, thanks for taking the time I really appreciate, the link you included is great, I did not have the time yet to review but I went over it quickly and it seems my questions are all answered, I'll post the calculations as I do them later on.

Sorry after Stuart's post I took a bit of time to think about the project and what I want. I don't want to rush into this and I have time to plan things correctly ahead. And I agree with you Stuart about rectangular rooms, I've worked in a few very good rectangular rooms but the ones I've been the most comfortable mixing were the ones with a RFZ design. And this is the heart of the problem, my main goal here is MIXING, this is why I've went with splayed walls and this is why I've come up with this design.
The corner room came from the fact that it seemed that I could use the space more efficiently that way but, and I agree with you both, the live room is only the result of putting the CR this way and not a real design intention, thus the weird shape.

Sorry I think I've sept the important part where I should have explained and detailed a bit more what I wanted to do.

So here are the facts :
- My first goal with that space was and still is MIXING. There is no proper facility to mix in the area, there are a few good/honest recording facilities around though. Most of them have very good equipment but very bad control room acoustics (i.e. one has a noise floor of about 50dB and another one has a cubic control room, you're not really sure what you're recording) but most of them have good acoustics in the live rooms and booths. I have to drive a few hundred kilometers to mix a tune properly.
- I need low noise in the control room 20dB would be a great (well not easy) ideal number I'll do with whatever comes closest in terms of quality/price ratio.
- I will be working mostly in the studio but I hope some other engineers will be interested tom ix in this room.
- The aimed STC is approx 60dB between the rooms, same or better between me and my only neighbor.
- As I said mixing is the priority and I have 15k€ to spend for that and I can probably get a bit more if I need to.
- Recording is a plus, at least if I could have a drum booth and another room that could fit a piano and a double bass that would be awesome. But I think I could make do with a single room in which I would build a few mobile absorbers probably.
- I haven't spent much time thinking about the live room and the booth, but the ability to record a few things like a jazz trio would be a cool thing.

Now I think you know everything what do you think ? Really I'm opened to suggestions.

Matt