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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Location: Devon, UK
Firstly hello everybody!

My name is Tristan and im based in North Devon, UK. I have been reading this forum for the last 6 months or so. The time has come that my wife and i have found our dream home and have just be given full planning consent for our proposed development!! so chuffed all round, whats better is that i have managed to blag the other half to let me have a room to build a studio.

I have no neighbours at this property

After five years of using the most horrid sounding room above a double garage im looking forward to starting on a poject studio. I have took alot of time to read the forum, order rods book etc etc in preparation for the build. My knowledge of studio construction is minimal but am aware of the key requirements. Its a learning curve which im looking very much forward to!

I produce electronic music, mainly Tech house and minimal techno so am making alot of bass heavy, warm soundin tracks. I dont record vocals or live instruments and am based pretty much in the box along with hardware synths and a desk.

As explained earlier i have had years of using a rubbish sounding room, v long, no insolation, poor acoustics with not alot of effective treatment, but cant complain as a rubbish room is better than no room hey!

So this time i want to get it right, my aims are to have a good sounding room, decent levels of isolation from the rest of the house to stop me getting screamed at and maximise studio use, and last but not least a comfy working environment.(No diff to anybody else i guess then!!) and the biggie to make it all happen...a reasonable cost!!

I have considered going down the route of using a specialist deisgner such like who lou has used on this forum, however i would like to see if i with alot of guidance people like yourselves and my personal research that i can acheive this myself, i feel that i would overall learn a huge amount and personally take alot more out of the project.

The room which i have choosen is a long rectangular ground floor room, which i intend to split into two areas, the main workstation control room ande the second room a dj mix and vinyl storage area.

The ceiling height is approx 2.4 Mtrs and the room next to it is a guest bedroom, the entrance to the propsed studio is accessed via a corridor from the lounge area.

The small recess on the right of the picture is intended for structural steels to rest on.

The priority space area is the main workstation control room.

I tend to work in the studio all different hours of the day as i use it as much as possible when not working. I tend to monitor at medium levels but do like to playback loud as and when required.

Im using ADAM P11s as montiors if that helps.

Im lucky that im building this part of the building which has a master bedroom etc above it from the ground up as the existing barn has been removed. So i wanted to start my project now to ensure that any building work which would be required such as isolation measures concrete base etc can be added to the build to ensure i get it right.

My initial thoughts are to have the main workstation room on the right handside of the room with a dividing wall leading to the mix room.

My budget for the build which i intend to do alot of my self is approx £5000.00-£8000.00 gbp max

Image

i have attached the plan with measurements in meters and would appreciate any guidance and help you guys can give. I have been practising my sketch up skills and am ready to start experimenting. It would be great to see what you guys can come up with

My initila questions are.

1. what type of dividing wall between the studio and bedroom would you advise, at present its been designed with a 100mm brick wall, considering overall effective isolation whats best?

2. The room base will be concrete is this advisble and if so i persume a floating floor is not needed?

3. Can you suggest some layouts/poss sketch up ideas

4. Im not fussed about having the windows and have no worries to blank them internally, is this advised?

right......page 5 of rods book!

Thanks

Tristan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:22 pm 
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Location: Embra
i should probably leave the 'answering questions' part to the experts, but here goes! lol

id suggest a cavity wall construction with an internal timber leaf to the studio with an isolated ground bearing slab.

also, i dunno if youd want to use resilient bars to the ceiling (and walls) with double plasterboarding as a minimum requirement?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:22 am 
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Location: Devon, UK
Hi elektrasoul

yeah was thinking along the cavaity wall route to split the studio from the bedroom, what thickness would you recommend?

I have been researching the use of resilient bars with double board and matting i have been on http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/ who give good visual demos online of how to acheive this.

Its is correct that i need the room with a room walls to not touch the main room flooring?

an update has come in the form of stuctural designs which has affected the small 1.3 mtr long wall on the left its now slightly thicker also on the far right hand side square plynth coming out from the wall as they need to rest two steels on these areas.

Im updating the plans which i will upload soon.

Im hoping the plynth on the right hand side can be hid as i plan to build framework down that end to house soffit mounted speakers etc.

can you guys give me some approx suggested measurement for a good shaped studio area with the remeinder of the overall room to be used for a mix room?

Tristan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:08 am 
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here i go again, trying to advise people! lol

TristanGr wrote:
Hi elektrasoul

yeah was thinking along the cavaity wall route to split the studio from the bedroom, what thickness would you recommend?


it depends on the construction of your bedroom partition, is this to be built in blockwork as per the hatching on your attached drawing? id recommend to build the party wall as thick and insulate it as dense as you can but someone else will probably give you better advice.

TristanGr wrote:
I have been researching the use of resilient bars with double board and matting i have been on http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/ who give good visual demos online of how to acheive this.

Its is correct that i need the room with a room walls to not touch the main room flooring?


ideally you want a cavity around the whole of your studio. you dont want any vibration shaking the room upstairs or next door.

TristanGr wrote:
an update has come in the form of stuctural designs which has affected the small 1.3 mtr long wall on the left its now slightly thicker also on the far right hand side square plynth coming out from the wall as they need to rest two steels on these areas.

Im updating the plans which i will upload soon.

Im hoping the plynth on the right hand side can be hid as i plan to build framework down that end to house soffit mounted speakers etc.


some sections through the building would be good. upload more drawings!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:58 am 
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The dividing wall is to be handbuilt yes, i think they specified standard 100mm blockwork for the wall. im not sure any insulation is going between .I dont want to loose any more room width at all considering what im going to further loose with the room within a room method.

Where we are talking about the vibration i persume that i need to leave gaps between the rb/plaster board and the flooring which needs sealing?

im nearly there with more drawings to be uploaded, the entrance to the studio is from a corridor and upstairs in the master bedroom.

I have been following lou's thread with alot of detail and whats great is that he built from the ground up like i am. One detail i want to clear up from the off is the floor construction method, refering to rods book did he start with a simple slab method and then used isolation materials?

im not jumping the gun but i need to get things like the slab and room walls (cavity insulation)sorted fairly soon as the build is commencing and it will be a while off before actual studio design is let alone started!

Tristan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:41 am 
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Hi Tristan, and welcome!

Maybe you could build a simple SketchUp model of your space, and post it here? It would be a lot easier to understand the existing structure, and also for you to plan out your construction carefully. SketchUp is free. It takes a while to get used to, but once you do it is a very powerful 3D modeler.


Regarding your wall construction: let me just repeat the mantra that you'll hear chanted over and over again on this forum, and in may other places too: Basically, what you need for good sound isolation, is: MASS - AIR - MASS. Also referred to as "two leaves".

In other words, to build your walls you want one bunch of mass (such as a couple of layers of gypsum board) attached to one side of a stud frame, then an air gap of a few inches that is mostly filled with insulation of some sort, then another bunch of mass, such as another couple of layers of gypsum board attached to a second stud frame. Everything sealed up air-tight. Period. Same for the ceiling. It's that simple.

Each "chunk of mass" is referred to as a "leaf", and you want ONLY two leaves, never three or four. Just two. And there must be no mechanical connection at all between the leaves. Meaning that the two leaves do not touch each other anywhere. So basically, you want to build a room within a room.

In your case, it looks like your "outer" leaf is already in place, with that brick wall, so all you need to do is to build the "inner" leaf, which could also be brick if you wanted, or it could be a stud wall with layers of GB. Or something else, as long as it is very massive, sealed, and has insulation (fiberglass or rock wool) in the gap in between it and the outer leaf.

Of course, you do need to check that your floor can take the weight of all that extra mass that you are going to load on top of it.

That's about as far as my current level of knowledge takes me! Hope it helps-



- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:54 am 
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sketchup is in hand and hope to do the simple plan later this week along with proximity plans

Tristan


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:31 pm 
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Location: Devon, UK
Hi Guys

Been busy with work so haven't had alot of design time

I have attached a sketchup file of the exact room dimensions now including the structural support plinths to be made of masonry blocks. Two steels will sited on the plinths running the length of the room. these will be house within the joists so will not interrupt the room ceiling

The odd shaped section behind the structural plinth by the doorway is an existing support.

I have tried to be exact as i can with my limited sketchup knowledge.

I will be having a play with layout ideas that i will post, would love any advice on layouts etc, especially advice on the floor/slab construction as that will be happening early next year

Cheers

Tristan


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:22 pm 
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Anybody??

I would like to have a crack with the layout and would like any advice on the suggested size of them main control room i have been thinkin approx 3.4 by 5.5m which takes me away from the cube.??

Tristan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:11 am 
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Hi Tristan. One thing I've learned is that to get answers here on this forum, you need patience! I think most of the folks who post here also work, so sometimes it takes days for your thread to get noticed.

Anyway, from my non-expert point of view:

Quote:
My initila questions are.

1. what type of dividing wall between the studio and bedroom would you advise, at present its been designed with a 100mm brick wall, considering overall effective isolation whats best?


First, make sure your brick wall is sealed. Plaster it or paint it, or both, but you do want it sealed airtight. It is part of your MAM system, so if must be hermetic. Then, I'd go for a stud wall set as far as possible away from your brick wall, at least four or five inches, if you can spare the space, if not the even one inch is OK. But more space is better. Then stuff that space full of insulation (fiberglass or rock wool), put a couple of layers of thick gypsum board on the outside of the studs, with a layer of green glue in between, caulked all around the edges, and make sure to seal each layer of gypsum board (backer rod in the gaps, then tape and mud). Search the forum, or check Rod's book, and you'll find the details on the best way of building stud walls.

Quote:
2. The room base will be concrete is this advisble and if so i persume a floating floor is not needed?

Yup, a concrete slab is good, and floating your floor is probably a bad idea anyway: you need a LOT of mass to do that properly (several inches of concrete over an air gap), and if you calculate wrong, you will make it worse, not better. And with a good slab, you probably don't need to float anyway.

Quote:
3. Can you suggest some layouts/poss sketch up ideas

Perhaps later. Busy day. How about if you sketch in roughly what you have in mind?

Quote:
4. Im not fussed about having the windows and have no worries to blank them internally, is this advised?

Personal choice, if you ask me. If you want to keep them because you have a really great view outside, or because you like daylight in your room, then sure, keep them, but be prepared to do some tough work on isolating them, and have lots of extra money on hand! If you want to do it right, you'd need to replace the outer glass with thick laminate glass, sealed in tightly to the frame, then build an inner window frame lined up with the outer one, also with thick laminate glass carefully sealed in place. It's practically the same as building a window between a CR and LR. But if you don't need the windows, then get rid of them and close up the gaps tightly. Lots less work!

That's my $0.02. Maybe others can offer better suggestions.


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:05 am 
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Thanks, ok so as far as the concrete slab are there any methods i should follow, i noticed in lou's thread he used timber against the structure to ensure that the concrete doesnt touch the house walls?

he also used a layer of isolating board, what is that method and do you have any guidance on it.

I tried to attached a rough style of layout that im looking to achieve for both rooms. but my sketchup file seems to big, is there a way to lower the filesize in sketchup?

Tristan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:15 am 
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Quote:
I tried to attached a rough style of layout that im looking to achieve for both rooms. but my sketchup file seems to big, is there a way to lower the filesize in sketchup?


Yeah, those files get pretty big real fast. The best idea is to "export" images of your sketchup model that show the details you want us to see, and just post the images here.

Regarding Lou's floor: Why don't you ask him about it? If I recall correctly, he built a timber framework on the floor, filled it with sand, then laid sub floor and finish floor on top of that. I'm not sure how that works acoustically, but as long as there is no air gap and it is all well coupled, then I guess it just acts as extra mass, not as a second leaf. But like I say, he's probably the best one to ask about how and why he did it, and what the results were like.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:08 pm 
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TristanGr wrote:
Thanks, ok so as far as the concrete slab are there any methods i should follow, i noticed in lou's thread he used timber against the structure to ensure that the concrete doesnt touch the house walls?


Standard building practice when a new slab is poured against an existing slab/barrier to allow for movement due to temperature/ seasonal change.

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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:30 pm 
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Hi Tristan - How ya doin' buddy?

You wrote:

Quote:
i noticed in lou's thread he used timber against the structure to ensure that the concrete doesnt touch the house walls?


No I didn't dude. :wink:

If you go back over that section of my thread you'll notice that there is absolutely no timber in my floor anywhere! It was all built to standard U.K. regs. I.E. 40mm down rejects (sea based pebbles) on top of hard ground, then 2" of sand followed by d.p.c. sheeting (1 large hell of a sheet of plastic), followed by 75mm celotex, then 6" steel reinforced concrete, and finally 4" screed. The material you see around the perimeter that runs vertically up the walls is celotex again. This configuration is what is known as 'upstands' and, as Brien correctly points out, is standard practice to allow the slab to expand as it dries. More importantly from our point of view, it perfectly decouples the slab from the house structure and works a treat! :D

Any main concerns, by all means call me (07880 516525)

Hope this helps dude and good luck with your project.

Regards,

Lou. 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Thanks guys, please find attached my rough idea of a layout for both rooms, the speaker soffit sections, cavity leafs, and bass traps are all just for an example of what i understand i may need, NOTE they are not the correct angles , height or positions just me playing with sketchup to give you guys an idea.

I haven't played alot of attention to the dj mix room yet as i will do that last, i do however intend to fit the same room within a room spec

the master file is earlier on this thread.


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