John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Hi Mark - Yeah - I haven't followed your earlier posts so thank you for updating me - my comment still applies to the left side of your control room. the extra depth lowers the slot resonator frequencies which is well worth exploiting.

That's about it. Develop (if at all possible) a room footprint based on good ratios then proceed from there. You break up the wall plane when you splay which translates to room diffusion. This action (splaying) if done correctly will eliminate paralleled walls which produce flutter echo. So the benefits are gained immediately

Then you have to test...you should test it at every stage really. From nothing to something to know where you are when you start to have a base line to work with towards the end of the build.

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate your input; it's invaluable.

So xSpace, it sounds like you're saying I'm on the right track, but that I just need to proceed knowing that I can't predict at this point what sort of issues I'm going to have as I build the room. I'm thinking that some of this can be addressed by building my resonators and traps specifically for my room, trying to compensate for modal problems that I discover when testing, is that correct?

And John, could you give me a little clarification, please:

Are you saying here that I should make the left side of the inner leaf of my control room straight, and then angle the resonator as I've pictured in my design to accomplish this? If I do this should I not build the right wall the same way so that the left and right walls are the same? I'd prefer to keep the right wall the way it is, giving me a splayed wall in the live room (not to mention a little more precious space in the live room, as well!) but if I'm better off basing the control room on a rectangular design and then splaying the resonators on both sides, then I'll do that.

One last thing, more generally speaking: does this control room appear workable? Is it big enough that, with proper treatment I can expect to like what I hear?

Thank you!
Mark

Yes - what you said Mark - it doesn't matter that the two side walls are different as their fronts are the same and that's what matters.

Thank you, John. That's what I'll do then. I'm sure I'll have more questions when it comes to actually designing the resonators.

Getting back to my most basic question: does this control room appear workable? Is it big enough that, with proper treatment I can expect to like what I hear?

I guess my biggest concern on this topic is the ceiling height: Is it worth the volume in the room that I lose in order to angle the ceiling the way I'm doing? I'm inclined to say "yes," but I see quite a few small room designs that don't bother angling the ceiling. Just to refresh your memory, below are the dimensions from my earlier post:

"I’ve tweaked the angles in the room. Since my soffits are at 38°, I’ve set my walls at 7.62 °. I came to this number using a little algebra: 12°/30° = x°/38°. This is how I came up with 15.24°, or 7.62° for each wall. As I mentioned in my introduction, math is not my strong suit, so if anyone sees any holes in my logic, please let me know, and I’ll go back to the drawing board.

"Using my new angles, I set the ceiling to 15.24° up to the halfway point of the room, behind my listening position, then I leveled it off a bit to 7.62°. I did not have room to maintain the 15.24° across the length of the room, so hopefully this is a good compromise (right, Stuart?).

"The new angles give me the following room dimensions:
Height (inside-out ceiling)
Front wall: 66.25”
Middle of room: 92.75”
Back wall: 100.5”

Width (inside-out walls)
Front wall: 85”
Back wall: 115 ½”

Length (inside-out walls):
121” "


Thanks so much for your help!

Mark

Hi--
I'm hoping one of you can reply to my last post. I've gotten great guidance along the way as I refine my design, but I'm still a bit insecure about the most basic question: will it work o.k. given the dimensions? Should I assume that silence means tacit approval? I will soon be at the point where I begin making construction decisions based on my design, and I don't want to start off on the wrong foot

As always, thank you for your input!

Mark

"I guess my biggest concern on this topic is the ceiling height: Is it worth the volume in the room that I lose in order to angle the ceiling the way I'm doing? I'm inclined to say "yes," "

I would keep the room volume, it is worth it. Thing is if you leave it and have to add an overhead cloud, you still have room. But if you remove the height...it is difficult to get back. 12 degree (total)is all I have seen suggested for splayed walls. So if you do this to the ceiling you start at the highest position available to keep as much room height as possible.

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Thanks, Brien--
So, just to clarify, you're recommending that I do not angle the ceiling, instead keeping it parallel to the floor, thus maximizing my height (and room volume). This would throw off my room ratio, but, as you said in an earlier post, those ratios are based on rectangular-shaped rooms. So really, I'm only guessing anyway when I try to apply them to a room with splayed walls.

In this scenario, like you suggested, I should expect to add a cloud over the listening position, thus mitigating flutter between the floor and ceiling. If I'm going to do that, do I still need to build the ceiling inside-out?

Thank you!

Mark

Start from the highest position possible as dictated by the room and slope the ceiling 12 degrees if possible. Or not. If your ceiling height is high enough you can install a cloud and slope the cloud. Or not. The largest volume you can get out of the room gives you room to treat if needed and reduce. If the room is already reduced and you need to treat...it gets even smaller.

Are you talking about both rooms, the control room and/or the tracking room?

I do not recall immediately an inside out ceiling that really needed to be constructed when the boundary could either be sloped or a cloud could be installed to reduce the hard boundary potential for flutter.

I would get the maximum amount of mass I could in the ceiling area, maximum height and maximum mass. This is the place that most external sound gets into from the building venting and overhead airborne sounds.

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Great--Thanks, Brien.
I think I'll go ahead and build the ceiling flat and not inside-out. Done that way, I will have about 8' of height. I was concerned with how cramped the room would feel when I angled the ceiling (5'6" at the front wall, , so I'm glad I asked. As you say, I will then have room to treat the ceiling, but if I angle it and it still needs treatment, I won't have any more room for that.

As far as the tracking room goes, I still want to explore the idea of converting the existing structure to scissors trusses so that I could vault the ceiling. I'll need to talk to an architect/engineer about the practicality of that, though.

I decided to nail down the exact design of the control room first, as I keep making adjustments to it that affect the live room. Now that I have a design that I think I will go with for the CR (unless someone tells me I shouldn't), I'll finish the design on the LR.

Thanks again for your help; I really appreciate it!

Mark

It may not be the best help but it is the best help I can produce on such short notice.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Well, I'm on the home stretch of the initial design phase (I hope!!!) The following design is what I will use to begin my build, unless someone says "No!! you fool!!!"

As a refresher, here are my dimensions:
Since my soffits are at 38°, I’ve splayed my walls to 7.62 °.

The new angles give me the following room dimensions:

Height (normally-built ceiling--not inside-out): 95"
Width (inside-out walls)
Front wall: 85”
Back wall: 115 ½”
Length (inside-out walls): 121”

With advice from xSpace, I've decided to build the CR ceiling normally, and make it flat, for maximum height, and install a large cloud sloped at 12 degrees over my listening position to take care of the potential for flutter. I'm still willing to build the ceiling inside-out, but I feel that if I angle it will just make the room feel too cramped.

For the LR, I'm really thinking of converting to scissors trusses and vaulting the ceiling as much as possible. Still talking with my architect friend about the practicality of that idea. The wall next to the CR will be splayed by 7.62 degrees, and the opposite wall of the LR will be the mirror-image of that. I'm planning on building slot resonators as pictured along one wall, with the opposite wall being cloth-covered and inside-out.

The "wall" directly to the left of the listening position will not have a leaf attached to it; it will be there only to support the slats; the real inner leaf is behind it, parallel with the outer wall of the building. I made this adjustment in response to John's advice that deeper cavity behind the slats could help take care of low frequencies. Please tell me, John, if I am approaching this aspect correctly.

Well, I think that's it. I can't wait to get started...or not, if I still need to refine this....

As always, thanks so much for your input,
Mark