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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:54 pm 
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Hey guys,

I think it is now time for me to start a new thread (you can find my first one HERE). Since I have started the first one a lot has changed.. I have changed work, i moved to another city, i have developed some great skills in engineering and desing which has let me to start thinking about serious investments into things I LOVE. First of them being MY STUDIO. So this thread will reveal the design path i am taking and with your help, hopefully, complete it with perfection.

I am now finishing the process of signing a long term rental contract in an office building i live nearby. It's an industrial area with pretty quiet surroundings and almost free of people 24/7. The only neighbors are a small construction company office and two other studios on the same floor which have no problem with the sound since they are also well isolated. I myself tend to get a bit loud, but on a reasonable level (mostly electronic music).

The building is a brick wall structure with thick walls (~350 mm) and i am renting a room with dimensions of: W8500 mm x L5800 mm. It has sloped ceiling thus the lower end by the windows is H2830 mm and the high end is H3820 mm (you can see the image below):
Attachment:
20160206_RoomView+DIM.jpg

My idea is tu build a CR in this room because the style of music is mostly electronic and there is already a well treated recording room in a neighboring studio if I need it. I will use 50x100 mm wooden slabs to do the framework, add fireproof gypsum to the outer leaf of the room.

Since I first started surfing this forum Ive developed a model using some of the examples and designs of existing studios. You can see my CR concept here:
Attachment:
20160206_IdeaCR+DIM.jpg

The room ratio i have chosen is as follows: 1:1,5:2,13 and equivalenting to: 2667 mm : 4000 mm : 5680 mm.

I have done a room modes analysis and the Bonello diagram comes out as follows (which to my knowledge is pretty fine):
Attachment:
20160206_ModesBonello.JPG


I am dedicated to spend around 15-20k euros. Maybe more if needed, but nothing very crazy.. I want to do all the labour myself as well as the complete design.


At this point i am struggling with several questions:
1) Am i calculating the room dimensions correctly? What i mean by this question is: which dimensions of the outer leaf are used to calculate the ratio correctly? The outer gypsum finish or the wooden slab framework that the gypsum finish is going to cover up? Because the gypsum walls will be 25 mm thick and i want to know weather their thickness has to be taken into account or not (at this point i made the outer gypsum finish as the dimensions of the room).

2) What do you think about the square niche in back side of the CR? I was thinking about a couch over there, but maybe I should extend the side frames to add more space for absorptive materials?

3) The speakers will be soffit mounted, but I have concerns weather the front soffit panel will be large enough for the speaker? My speakers are PSI audio A-21M's (400x250x300). I have read that the soffit panel should be 0.25 of lowest wavelength the speaker produces. PSI says the speaker has a response of 32Hz to 23kHz at ‑6dB and 38Hz to 20kHz at ‑1,5dB. The calculator says:
32 Hz => 10,75 m wavelength, which comes out to around 2,69 m soffit front panel from every side of the speaker and
38 Hz => 9.03 m wavelength, which comes out to around 2.26 m soffit front panel from every side of the speaker.
Do they really have to be that large from every side? I am not sure if only the front soffit panel is considered as the baffle or the whole interconnected framework if it is connected together?

4) I am not sure if i should angle my inner leaf walls or not. I have read different opinions about angled walls.. I might have misunderstood some other posts maybe, but John has stated in some of them that he is not opting for angled walls anymore, some other guys say that too. I understand modes are much harder to calculate with angled walls, but then again - i dont know much about that and im not sure if i really MUST calculate them very extensively?

5) Is the approach Ive chosen correct? Maybe I should choose some other design with the room i have? The reason behind this design is because i am still planning to leave a small space in the front for my mersonal office where i would do my engineering work.

I would add the SKP, but the file size too large. If anyone wants - PM me and i will send you a copy.

Thank you in advance and have a nice weekend!
A/M


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:49 am 
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Quote:
i am renting a room with dimensions of: W8500 mm x L5800 mm. It has sloped ceiling thus the lower end by the windows is H2830 mm and the high end is H3820 mm (you can see the image below):
Sounds like a very nice sized place! Good possibilities... :thu:

Quote:
and two other studios on the same floor which have no problem with the sound since they are also well isolated.
... "on the same floor" ??? That implies that you are not on the ground floor? You are on an upper floor?

Quote:
add fireproof gypsum to the outer leaf of the room.
I don't understand: you already HAVE the outer leaf! you said it is brick and measures 8.5m x 5.8m x 2.8-3.2m. That IS your outer leaf. You don't need another one!

Quote:
You can see my CR concept here:
Why are you cutting off the corners like that? Corners are excellent places for bass trapping: by eliminating the corners, you are wasting a lot of space, and throwing away great opportunities for treatment.

I keep on seeing that shape, but I'm not sure where it comes from: Either it is being totally misused, out of context, or it is just one of those infamous Internet myths that carries on circulating but refuses to die the death it deserves...

Quote:
The room ratio i have chosen is as follows: 1:1,5:2,13
Louden's third ratio? Why did you choose that one, when you have so much space available, and opportunities for a better ratio in a larger room?

Quote:
1) Am i calculating the room dimensions correctly? What i mean by this question is: which dimensions of the outer leaf are used to calculate the ratio correctly?
Imagine that you are standing inside the room, right after you finish building it, but before you put in any furniture or acoustic treatment. The hard, solid, massive, rigid walls that you see around you, are the ones you use for calculating the room modes.

However, with the sixteen-sided room shape that you are showing, you cannot use Bob Golds' calculator, nor any other simple calculator. All room mode calculators assume that your room has only six sides, arranged as a rectangular prism, with three pairs of parallel boundary surfaces, at right angles to each other. Those calculators will not produce valid, realistic predictions for your multi-walled, multi-angled non-parallel room.

Quote:
I have done a room modes analysis and the Bonello diagram comes out as follows (which to my knowledge is pretty fine):
It would be, if your room was a 6-sided rectangle. But that's not the case, so your predicted Bonello chart is pretty much meaningless.

Quote:
2) What do you think about the square niche in back side of the CR?
I am thinking that it creates a wonderful resonant cavity, where bass will build up fantastically, without any damping at all, totally messing up the room acoustics, and making the rear 3 meters of the room unusable for critical listening.

Quote:
3) The speakers will be soffit mounted,
How? You are cutting off the front corners where the soffits need to go.

Quote:
but I have concerns weather the front soffit panel will be large enough for the speaker?
Assuming that the small angled "cut-off" walls at the front left and right are what you are referring to as "soffits", the answer is no: they are likely too small to be of much use.

Soffit mounting is an excellent concept, and very much recommended... but it has to be done right.

Quote:
I have read that the soffit panel should be 0.25 of lowest wavelength the speaker produces.
I have read a LOT of things about sound on the internet: only a small fraction of them turn out to be true.

In reality, the concept of soffit mounting is to create an "infinite baffle", meaning a front surface that appears to be infinitely large to the sound waves emanating from the speaker. That's a lofty goal, as theoretically it would have to measure hundreds of meters in all directions to do that. Happily, it isn't necessary to do that. One full wavelength in all directions will do the job reasonably well: Sadly, that still means that you'd need a soffit a dozen meters each way: hard to do, realistically, in most real-world studios. So we have to compromise, by going smaller. The smaller you go, the less effect you get. A quarterwave is a good compromise, but even that isn't achievable in most studios. So you have to go smaller still. In the real world, as long as you can at least double the width of the speaker cabinet itself, you are doing well. If you can go more than that, then excellent. Vertically, you often can get close to a quarter wave, but horizontally, that's tough, unless you have a very big room.

There are also other issues: with small sizes vs. wavelengths, you start getting "focusing" or "lobing" effects, and to compensate for that, you need to offset the speaker so that it is NOT in the middle of the soffit. On the plus side, you can blend the soffit wall into the front wall and side wall, increasing the effect. On the down-side, that creates a sort of horn-loading shape for the speaker, which might or might not be good. On the up-side....

As you can see, there are lots of "up" sides and lots of "down" sides to designing a soffit. The basic plan is to make it as big as you possibly can (by eliminating the unnecessary angled side-wall cut-off thingies, for example) and to offset the speaker form the center as much as you reasonably can do. The rest can be done at the stage of room tuning, to a certain extent.

Quote:
4) I am not sure if i should angle my inner leaf walls or not.
Yes and no. "Yes" if you have the space to do so without unduly affecting your room volume, and if you need to do that for treatment reasons. "No" otherwise. "Yes" if the design concept you are following requires that, "No" otherwise.

Quote:
but John has stated in some of them that he is not opting for angled walls anymore, some other guys say that too.
Yep. Count me in. I only ever angle walls these days where it is absolutely needed to create an RFZ, NER, CID or similar room, and even then I only angle as much wall as is totally necessary. The rest I leave parallel then treat accordingly, unless there is a powerful overriding reason to do otherwise.

Quote:
I understand modes are much harder to calculate with angled walls, but then again - i dont know much about that and im not sure if i really MUST calculate them very extensively?
Correct! Modes are a fact of life, and ALL rooms have them regardless of shape or size. You should go with a basic rectangular shape that has a set of overall dimensions that show no major modal issues, then work from there. By angling the front part of the room, you will be "softening" the effects of the axial modes, and also adding tangential modes. That's a good thing. But you are right: as long as you have a fairly decent basic shape, you do not need to go crazy about modal response.

Quote:
5) Is the approach Ive chosen correct? Maybe I should choose some other design with the room i have? The reason behind this design is because i am still planning to leave a small space in the front for my mersonal office where i would do my engineering work.
Move the entire structure over to the left wall, and up against the back wall, so that you can eliminate those parts of what you are showing. In other words, use two sides of the existing room as two sides of your outer leaf, then just build the other two sides to complete the outer shell.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:19 am 
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Hey Stuart,

You are a treat, like always.. Thank you for your input. Lets go through some replies:
Quote:
... "on the same floor" ??? That implies that you are not on the ground floor? You are on an upper floor?

You are correct. It is a 2 story building and the room is in the 2nd floor. The first floor are technical areas and storage.

Quote:
Why are you cutting off the corners like that?

You mean the corners in the sides? I should extend the studs instead of cutting them with the square outer leaf, right? Would you say the attached below image doesnt have its corners 'cut off'?
Attachment:
20160206_IdeaCR02.jpg


Quote:
Why did you choose that one, when you have so much space available, and opportunities for a better ratio in a larger room?

I have chosen this ratio, because there is a door in the left back wall.. This limits the width of the room.. It is also why i cant design the room in the side next to the brick walls..

Quote:
... totally messing up the room acoustics, and making the rear 3 meters of the room unusable for critical listening.

Noted, thank you.

Quote:
You are cutting off the front corners where the soffits need to go.

I have attached the image above with the studwork. Would you say i fixed the issue or at least went in the right direction?

Quote:
The basic plan is to make it as big as you possibly can and to offset the speaker form the center as much as you reasonably can do.

Noted. I will definitely go for soffits. I did not show them in the drawings because i have not yet investigated enough. I will read the forum more and when i have a soffit concept i will post it to the forum.

Quote:
Move the entire structure over to the left wall, and up against the back wall, so that you can eliminate those parts of what you are showing. In other words, use two sides of the existing room as two sides of your outer leaf, then just build the other two sides to complete the outer shell.

As i mentioned before - there is a door in the back corner. The only way i could do what you offer is to remove the door and rebuild the wall, take down the wall in another spot and put the door there. I did not plan for that, but it is a viable option nonetheless. Would you say that is the approach i should go for?

I have modeled another possible design:
Attachment:
20160206_IdeaCR03.jpg

I dont want to loose the windows and natural lighting.. Especially when the windows are large and spacious.. I also dont want to loose the rear end absorption, because the door would have to be there.. I will study the forum a bit more to maybe search for a more similar situation..

In any case - thank you Stuart, you are a gem!

Take care!
A/M


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:07 am 
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Hey guys,

A little update on the build. I have talked to the company who rents the place to remove the door and they agreed on it. So instead of a door right in the corner there will be a solid brick wall.

I have gone with the idea Stuart has offered and will put the CR in the corner like this:
Attachment:
20160213_IdeaCR+DIM-2.jpg


I have remodelled the room to have a ratio of 1:1,61:1,91 which corresponds to 3106 mm x 5000 mm x 5932 mm. I will go for the STC69 build.

One question i have is:

Should i keep the CR strictly rectangular or should i angle it to the ceiling? I assume angling would provide more possibilities for treatment, correct?

On my first post i did not add a download link of the SKP file so im adding one HERE.

What do you think about the geometry of the CR? It is a rough sketch at this point and i dont really like how it came out. I want to narrow the walls and add more space in the back for treatment.

Any ideas and offers are welcome.

Thanks.
A/M


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:04 pm 
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AntonMcmillan wrote:
Hey guys,
I have gone with the idea Stuart has offered and will put the CR in the corner like this:
Attachment:
20160213_IdeaCR+DIM-2.jpg



Looking at the design above, I'd say that half of the rectangular frame is unnecessary. In particular the two 'walls' you have along the brick walls (top and left in the diagram above). The other two walls are essentially the continuation of the two brick walls to complete your outer leaf. The RFZ design inside is your inner leaf and should be structurally independent of the rectangular room.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:47 pm 
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rockindad wrote:
The other two walls are essentially the continuation of the two brick walls to complete your outer leaf. The RFZ design inside is your inner leaf and should be structurally independent of the rectangular room.

Thnaks for the input - i had doubts about that. Would you say i have to angle the ceiling or continue with a completely rectangular design? I also thought i need the frame there to put insulation into. But im not a professional on this topic.

Also, not having a framework might present problems when trying to completely seal the outer leaf for air tightness.. Is that right?

Thanks for your input!
M


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:27 pm 
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Sorry for bumping the thread so often guys, im not doing this on purpose. Since im a professional engineer and most of my time is dedicated to electrical, fire and security alarm projects and designs - I have limited time to do stuff like this and want to develop this design ASAP. Thus so much posts, especially during the weekend.

I have redesigned the CR framework and i think i will stick to this one:
Attachment:
20160213_CR_Studwork.jpg

One question i have: since the speakers will be flush mounted - the areas where the speakers are (red) have to be sealed airtight from the sides where other treatment will be (green), right? I am studying the Simo studio build and found that should be sealed airtight likewise:
Attachment:
pic5.jpg


I am now studying how to properly flush mount the speakers. If you want to check out the design or want close up details - you can find my SKP in a dropbox link HERE

Cheers,
Mario


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:20 pm 
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Quote:
You mean the corners in the sides?
No, I mean ALL of the corners! And the sides. You are slicing off huge chunks of your room, unnecessarily.

You later fixed the front by turning the "cut-off" corners into soffits, which is great, but the sides and back remain sliced and diced...

Quote:
I have talked to the company who rents the place to remove the door and they agreed on it.
Excellent! That's good news.

Quote:
I have talked to the company who rents the place to remove the door and they agreed on it.
Great. So now you can lose the two framed walls on those two sides, as rockindad said. That's just wasting space, time, and money.


Quote:
I have gone with the idea Stuart has offered and will put the CR in the corner like this:
Yes, but you are still using that very weird, "chopped-off" shape. Just extend the soffits all the way out to the inner-leaf side walls, lose the strange angled things on the side, and at the back.

Quote:
I will go for the STC69 build.
STC is a useless measure for studio isolation. It is meaningless. The STC system does not take into account the bottom two and a half octaves of the musical spectrum, and it does not take into account the top two and a half octaves of the musical spectrum. It only takes into account a thin sliver of the spectrum in the center, which is roughly where human speech and typical office noises occur, but totally non-representative of music. Forget about using STC rated construction for studios. I can build you a wall rated at STC 40 that is really lousy at isolating loud music, and I can build you another wall rated at STC 40 that is way better at isolating loud music.

Also, the above notwithstanding, STC-69 is pretty hard to achieve... you must have a very good budget, and lots of time to spend on this!

Quote:
Should i keep the CR strictly rectangular
I don't know why you are asking that, because what you are showing in all of your diagrams so far is NOT rectangular. It isn't even close to rectangular. A rectangular room has six sides: 4 walls, 1 floor, 1 ceiling. Your diagrams show TEN sides: you have eight walls, one floor and one ceiling.... Why are you asking about a "keeping" the room rectangular when your room is not rectangular anyway? Are you planning to remove all the strangely angled walls and go back to making it purely rectangular?

Quote:
I have remodelled the room to have a ratio of 1:1,61:1,91
No you haven't for the same reason above: your room is not rectangular. Room ratios and simple room mode calculators only apply to six-sided rectangular rooms. They do not apply to rooms that have more than six sides, or less than six sides, or where the walls are not parallel.

Quote:
should i angle it to the ceiling?
What basic design philosophy are you following? Of that philosophy calls for an angled ceiling, then angle it (or hang a hard-backed angled cloud). If not, then don't. And once again, if you angle your ceiling then room ratios and room mode calculators are out the window again, since they only apply to rooms with parallel surfaces.

Quote:
I assume angling would provide more possibilities for treatment, correct?
Not really. It would provide different possibilities for treatment, yes, but not necessarily more possibilities. Whether or not those differences are useful for your room, depends on the basic design philosophy you are using.

Quote:
What do you think about the geometry of the CR?
I think you should fix it to remove the chopped-off corners, to do the soffits properly, and to show the location of the drywall and initial treatment. Right now, it is just framing so one can only guess at where the drywall goes, how thick it is, which way it faces, where the treatment goes, what type it is, what its purpose is, etc.

Quote:
I want to narrow the walls and add more space in the back for treatment.
The room is already VERY narrow! Why do you want to narrow it even more? Also, you WOULD have a lot more room at the back for treatment if you would just get rid of the chopped-off angles....

Quote:
not having a framework might present problems when trying to completely seal the outer leaf for air tightness.. Is that right?
No. Your concrete will need sealing in any case, with a good quality masonry sealer, and your framing will butt up against that tightly, with abundant caulk in between to seal the gaps and cracks. No problem.

Quote:
I have redesigned the CR framework and i think i will stick to this one:
Going the wrong way: it went from ten sides to ELEVEN sided! :ahh:

Also, your soffits cannot and must not be air-tight: How would you vent them, if they were hermetically sealed?

Quote:
the areas where the speakers are (red) have to be sealed airtight from the sides where other treatment will be (green), right?
No. Why would you want to seal up that area? See above: if it is sealed, then you have no way of providing the needed ventilation for the speakers...

The inner-leaf MUST be sealed, yes, absolutely, but the soffit cavity must NOT be sealed.

Also, why do you want slot walls so close to your ears, and at your first reflection points? Slot walls are tuned resonant devices. They change the frequency response curve of what you hear....


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:23 am 
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Stuart, let me apologize for the confusion. It bothers me when almost everything I have gone with was rubbish. Thank you for your insight and for straightening things out for me. Right away I would like to ask you a few questions:
Quote:
You later fixed the front by turning the "cut-off" corners into soffits, which is great, but the sides and back remain sliced and diced...

I have left the rectangular room as it is. Heres the example:
Attachment:
20160213_CR_Studwork-Update.jpg

1) I should still put some studs in the back and side walls near concrete for support of the ceiling, i just dont put gypsum there and anchor it to the concrete walls, right?
2) I want to design hangers for the corners in the back of the room. As i understand, i need to make a framework to put the hangers in, but this framework is not sealed from the inner side of the CR, right? I have mistakenly assumed that all the treatment was sealed off airtight from the inside of the CR as well..
Quote:
Excellent! That's good news.

There are some bad news too.. I today discovered there is a truck repair company in the first floor and they have heavy machinery, lifts and other apparatus that produce quite a bit of noise and some vibration. I think i should do some sort of floor isolation too, dont you think? Before i only wanted to put wooden floors, but now im afraid that wont be enough..
Quote:
Just extend the soffits all the way out to the inner-leaf side walls, lose the strange angled things on the side, and at the back.

Are the soffits ok now? How about the back side?
Quote:
If that philosophy calls for an angled ceiling, then angle it (or hang a hard-backed angled cloud). If not, then don't.

I was going to design a cloud, but i thought if i angle the ceiling i automatically win that and have more space to add treatment in the top of the room. I will go for rectangular and put an angled cloud in the room.
Quote:
Right now, it is just framing so one can only guess at where the drywall goes, how thick it is, which way it faces, where the treatment goes, what type it is, what its purpose is, etc.

I will update the SKP with walls, treatment and other stuff as soon as im sure im going the right direction.
Quote:
Also, why do you want slot walls so close to your ears, and at your first reflection points?

Soryy, i did not want that. For some reason the Simo studio build has confused me. I found that HERE - 4th post from the end of the page. Maybe you can clarify the concept there for me?

Thank you for your input again. Youre a gem!

Best of wishes!
M


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:41 am 
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Hey,

I have came up with some updates and i want to clarify a few things before i go further (You are all free to assume all kinds of kinky stuff about my Valentines day activities :twisted: ).

First off - I have remodelled the stud framework to allign with the gypsum boards. The idea is tu build a sort of a modular frame system that consists of 5 pieces (ceiling and 4 walls) that will be screwed together to form the room. The pieces are the following:
1) CEILING PIECE - 50x100 mm pine studs with intersections to screw GKF gypsum boards onto (2000x1200 mm). Dimensions - 5932x5000 mm:
Attachment:
20160214_StudworkCeilingPiece.jpg

2) LEFT WALL PIECE - 50x100 mm pine studs with support studs to hold the ceiling framework. This piece goes directly to the concrete wall. Dimensions - 5732x3056 mm:
Attachment:
20160214_StudworkLeftWall.jpg

3) REAR WALL PIECE - 50x100 mm pine studs with support studs to hold the ceiling framework. This piece goes directly to the concrete wall. Dimensions - 5000x3056 mm:
Attachment:
20160214_StudworkRearWall.jpg

4) RIGHT WALL PIECE - 50x100 mm pine studs with intersections to screw GKF gypsum boards onto (2000x1200 mm). Dimensions - 5732x3056 mm:
Attachment:
20160214_StudworkRightWall.jpg

5) FRONT WALL PIECE - 50x100 mm pine studs with intersections to screw GKF gypsum boards onto (2000x1200 mm). 5000x3056 mm:
Attachment:
20160214_StudworkFrontWall.jpg


The whole idea of the build is:
A) Level the floor to be as even as possible.
B) Plaster the walls to be as even as possible.
C) Build the CEILING panel and add gypsum boards to it.
D) Build the REAR WALL panel.
E) Build the FRONT WALL panel.
F) Anchor the REAR WALL piece to the wall.
G) Put the CEILING piece onto the REAR WALL piece and while adjusting to the room measurements - add the FRONT WALL piece and anchor it to the concrete wall.
H) After the CEILING, FRONT and REAR pieces are in place - remeasure (in case of structural differences) and build the RIGHT WALL and LEFT WALL pieces.
I) Put these pieces into place and start adding GKF gypsum boards.

As you can see - I have not made any door holes as of yet. I am holding on that for now, because I want to clarify a few things.

If you look closely - the number of intersection studs is different for every piece. That is because the gypsum boards will have uneven distribution throughout the frame. To clarify - here is how gypsum will be layed onto the frame:
Attachment:
20160214_GypsumLayout.jpg


So far there is only a single layer of gypsum boards that are 12,5 mm in thickness.

My questions are:
1. Is one layer of 12,5 mm gypsum enough? I was planning for 2 layers and a total of 25 mm of drywall on the CEILING, FRONT and RIGHT panels.
2. If 2 layers are the right way - I assume intersections where the gypsum boards meet should not overlap at the same exact places for the 2 layers? What i mean is: once the gypsum boards are done for the first layer, do I need to make the second layer in an exact opposite order so that the intersections do not meet at the same spots?
3. As i have mentioned before - the room is on the second floor and the first floor is a truck repair dock that has large apparatus, lifts and other machinery that generate noise and vibrations. I am pretty sure i should add some kind of insulation to the floor. Im not sure how much and how complex that insulation should be? AND IF YES>>>
4. I was planning to utilize the 50 mm thickness of the floor stud to add some insulation and make the CR floor leveled to the stud height, putting electical heated pads and parquet (wood tiles). If floor isolation is the case - I was afraid a single stud wond be sufficent and i should add a double stud which would provide 100 mm for adding floor insulation. Is that a valid concept or should I just drop the idea of floor isolation? I dont know if i should worry about this a lot, because i will mostly work there after work hours when the truck dock doesnt work..

I have updated the SKP's if you wish to have a closer look HERE.
Thanks for your insights once again (Stuart)!

With love,
Forum's Valentine :love:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:24 am 
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Quote:
I have remodelled the stud framework to allign with the gypsum boards.
Ummmm.... if you just use normal conventional framing at either 16"OC or 24"OC, (or 400mm OC / 600 mm OC for metric) then that would work out automatically! I'm not understanding why you had to do something "special" to make it work out... are you SURE you are correctly following standard framing principles?

Quote:
The idea is tu build a sort of a modular frame system that consists of 5 pieces (ceiling and 4 walls) that will be screwed together to form the room.
Sorry, but that is NOT the correct way to frame a room. You should probably buy a book on basic framing and construction techniques, and learn how to do it properly.

Quote:
2) LEFT WALL PIECE - 50x100 mm pine studs with support studs to hold the ceiling framework. This piece goes directly to the concrete wall.
If you already have a concrete wall there, then why would you need to attach framing to it? I'm not understanding this design at all.

Quote:
3) REAR WALL PIECE - 50x100 mm pine studs with support studs to hold the ceiling framework.
As above.... The stud spacing looks to way too far apart for proper ceiling support us ONLY 16"OC or 24"OC for that. On the other hand, if the purpose of this is ONLY to support the ceiling, and and it is directly attached to the concrete anyway, then why not just use a ledger board for that, anchor-bolted into the concrete, and of sufficient dimensions to provide the needed structural integrity?

Quote:
A) Level the floor to be as even as possible.
How? Using which materials and which techniques?

Quote:
B) Plaster the walls to be as even as possible.
Which walls? The existing concrete walls do not need plastering: they just need sealing, with good quality masonry sealer. You COULD plaster them, but that would be added expense, and since the won't be visible, they don't need to be particularly smooth or even.

Quote:
C) Build the CEILING panel and add gypsum boards to it.
How are you going to do that when the walls are not up yet? :shock:

Quote:
G) Put the CEILING piece onto the REAR WALL piece and while adjusting to the room measurements -
I'd really like to see your detailed plan for doing that: the ceiling will way many hundreds of kilograms, and will be LARGER than the size of the walls, so it will be very interesting to see your plan for carrying the finished ceiling into the room and raising it above your head....

Quote:
H) After the CEILING, FRONT and REAR pieces are in place ... build the RIGHT WALL and LEFT WALL pieces.
How do you plan to prevent the unsupported ceiling from collapsing while you are in the process of building those two walls?

Quote:
I) Put these pieces into place and start adding GKF gypsum boards.
How do you plan to prevent the wall framing from collapsing sideways (in sheer) before you put the structural sheer panels on?

I think you have no idea how dangerous this plan is, and how many different ways it could kill you or seriously injure you as you try to implement it: I think you should NOT try to do this yourself, and instead hire a competent, qualified contractor to do it for you.

Quote:
To clarify - here is how gypsum will be layed onto the frame:
I do not understand the reasoning behind that sheathing plan at all. It makes no sense. Why do you not want to use the conventional, traditional approved, safe, proven framing concepts? What benefit do you think you can gain with this strange system you are inventing? Is it even allowed by your local building regulations? Did you get a qualified structural engineer to check your calculations, and make sure that your framing really can support the huge dead load and live loads that you will clearly be imposing on it? I find it hard to believe that a structural engineer would approve that....

Quote:
there is only a single layer of gypsum boards that are 12,5 mm in thickness.
12.5mm is not thick enough for good isolation. Use only 16mm drywall.

Drywall in general does not provide much strength in sheer. Since your walls are structural (load-bearing) you WILL need to provide sheer resistance. Drywall by itself is no good for that, and probably is not permitted by your regulations.

Quote:
1. Is one layer of 12,5 mm gypsum enough?
Enough for what?

Quote:
I was planning for 2 layers and a total of 25 mm of drywall on the CEILING, FRONT and RIGHT panels.
Why only on those ones?

Quote:
I assume intersections where the gypsum boards meet should not overlap at the same exact places for the 2 layers?
Correct.

Quote:
do I need to make the second layer in an exact opposite order so that the intersections do not meet at the same spots?
Correct.

Quote:
3. As i have mentioned before - the room is on the second floor
Did you get a structural engineer to check that you will not be overloading the floor with too much weight? You will be placing hundreds (maybe thousands) of kilograms of extra mass on the floor, concentrated in linear loading. You MUST get a structural engineer to confirm that it is safe to do that. If you cause the floor to collapse due to overloading it without authorization, YOU will be responsible, both financially and criminally if anyone is injured or killed.

Quote:
the first floor is a truck repair dock that has large apparatus, lifts and other machinery that generate noise and vibrations. I am pretty sure i should add some kind of insulation to the floor. Im not sure how much and how complex that insulation should be?
You do it like this:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

http://archive.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/d ... /ir802.pdf

Quote:
I was planning to utilize the 50 mm thickness of the floor stud to add some insulation and make the CR floor leveled to the stud height,
Why? What is the reason you want the floor level with the sole plate? If you do conventional walls (not "inside out" walls), then the sole plates won't even be visible when you put your final flooring down, as the sheathing will have covered them: If you do inside-out construction (which you seem to be doing) then it also doesn't matter.

Before you go any further, I'd suggest that you buy and carefully study two books: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. You need to read and fully understand all of the concepts described in both of those, before you can carry on designing your studio. The way you are going right now is dangerous, and probably illegal.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:39 am 
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Hey Stuart,

I think you might have misunderstood the concept..
Quote:
Ummmm.... if you just use normal conventional framing at either 16"OC or 24"OC, (or 400mm OC / 600 mm OC for...

I am using normal conventional framing (the gypsum boards are 2000x1200 mm) and i am adding studs every 600 mm with small offsets at the corners of the frame.
Quote:
Sorry, but that is NOT the correct way to frame a room.

Modular systems are very common here.. Houses are build using modular systems, not just rooms.. I dont understand why its not a viable option to design a studio CR from modules?
Quote:
If you already have a concrete wall there, then why would you need to attach framing to it? I'm not understanding this design at all.

The idea of the frame is to support the ceiling module and help fix acoustic treatment when it is added later on.
Quote:
On the other hand, if the purpose of this is ONLY to support the ceiling, and and it is directly attached to the concrete anyway, then why not just use a ledger board for that, anchor-bolted into the concrete, and of sufficient dimensions to provide the needed structural integrity?

Valid point here.. I was thinking the frame would also help when treatment would be applied to the room. What i mean is - the studs would keep mineral wool in place. I agree that spacings for the rear and side walls might be too big.
Quote:
Using which materials and which techniques?

A thin layer of cement throughout the whole room. A friend of mine has a construction company and they do floors who already looked at the place and agreed to do it.
Quote:
Which walls? The existing concrete walls do not need plastering: they just need sealing, with good quality masonry sealer. You COULD plaster them, but that would be added expense, and since the won't be visible, they don't need to be particularly smooth or even.

I found out that the room has a plasterboard leaf around it already. After taking that down i do not know how even the walls are. I was thinking i need to make the room as even and symetrical as possible, thats why the plastering.
Quote:
How are you going to do that when the walls are not up yet?

Quote:
I'd really like to see your detailed plan for doing that: the ceiling will way many hundreds of kilograms, and will be LARGER than the size of the walls, so it will be very interesting to see your plan for carrying the finished ceiling into the room and raising it above your head....

Quote:
How do you plan to prevent the unsupported ceiling from collapsing while you are in the process of building those two walls?

Heres how i will do it:
Once the floor is leveled - the ceiling piece will be made right there in the room as follows:
Attachment:
20160220_BuildProcess01.jpg

After that - two layers of gypsum boards will be added to the module and it will be moved to the front of the room like this:
Attachment:
20160220_BuildProcess02.jpg

After measuring and calculating - the REAR WALL piece and the LEFT WALL piece will be made right on the spot and anchored to the wall like this (or maybe just the ledger boards, like you mentioned before, Stuart. I am not yet sure if the framework would later serve other purposes when adding treatment..):
Attachment:
20160220_BuildProcess03.jpg

Then the FRONT WALL and the RIGHT WALL pieces would be assembled on the spot and once they are done - a team of around 8-10 people would lift the CEILING PIECE and put it on the existing framework, while another team would put the FRONT WALL and the RIGHT WALL pieces for support (visually removed the gypsum):
Attachment:
20160220_BuildProcess04.jpg

Once this is all done - TWO LAYERS of gypsum boards are put around the FRONT and RIGHT panels (600 mm studs):
Attachment:
20160220_BuildProcess05.jpg

Quote:
I think you have no idea how dangerous this plan is, and how many different ways it could kill you or seriously injure you as you try to implement it: I think you should NOT try to do this yourself, and instead hire a competent, qualified contractor to do it for you.

Yes Stuart, I would not do this whole plan on my own at any circumstances. Like i have mentioned before - my friend runs a construction company and he will aid me in all the ways needed. Construction, manpower and technology etc.
Quote:
I do not understand the reasoning behind that sheathing plan at all. It makes no sense. Why do you not want to use the conventional, traditional approved, safe, proven framing concepts? What benefit do you think you can gain with this strange system you are inventing? Is it even allowed by your local building regulations? Did you get a qualified structural engineer to check your calculations, and make sure that your framing really can support the huge dead load and live loads that you will clearly be imposing on it? I find it hard to believe that a structural engineer would approve that....

I went with the modular path because building the CR with the dimensions i have chosen and adding gypsum to the ceiling would be impossible due to low ceiling of the initial room itself. I have not yet done calculations for the structure. I will ask colleagues to make these for me and if the structure is not efficient - I will update the framework with added support.
Quote:
12.5mm is not thick enough for good isolation. Use only 16mm drywall.

Do you mean I should use 16 mm even if i plan to add 2 layers of 12,5?
Quote:
Why only on those ones?

Because other walls face the concrete walls of the initial room and I thought i dont need to add gypsum to those.
Quote:
Did you get a structural engineer to check that you will not be overloading the floor with too much weight? You will be placing hundreds (maybe thousands) of kilograms of extra mass on the floor, concentrated in linear loading. You MUST get a structural engineer to confirm that it is safe to do that. If you cause the floor to collapse due to overloading it without authorization, YOU will be responsible, both financially and criminally if anyone is injured or killed.

The company that rents the premise has approved the concept. Generally the structure was a soviet built storage facility, using VERY massive monolith plates for ceilings and floors. Adding a ton or two to the floor will not make much difference.
Quote:
What is the reason you want the floor level with the sole plate? If you do conventional walls (not "inside out" walls), then the sole plates won't even be visible when you put your final flooring down, as the sheathing will have covered them: If you do inside-out construction (which you seem to be doing) then it also doesn't matter.

I have no intent for the sole plate to be visible. The only purpose was to put wooden tiles and have electrical heating pads underneath them. Also, I wanted the door of the CR to be as close to the floor as possible (I though they operate better and longer when closer to floors).
Quote:
Before you go any further, I'd suggest that you buy and carefully study two books: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. You need to read and fully understand all of the concepts described in both of those, before you can carry on designing your studio. The way you are going right now is dangerous, and probably illegal.

Just got the copy of Rod Gervais book, thanks for the advice. I might come here with questions from the book that i dont very much understand.

Anyway, thanks for your insights Stuart! You are great..

Have a nice weekend,
M


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:02 am 
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Quote:
I am using normal conventional framing
No: Sorry, but you just aren't. That is NOT conventional framing. You should buy a book about construction techniques, and learn how to do framing properly.

Quote:
I dont understand why its not a viable option to design a studio CR from modules?
How will you ensure that the mass (surface density) remains constant throughout the construction? How will you ensure multiple hermetic, air-tight seals at each joint between modules?

A studio is NOT built the same way as a normal house, office, school, shop or church. Same materials, different techniques. Very different.

Quote:
The idea of the frame is to support the ceiling module and help fix acoustic treatment when it is added later on.
Acoustic treatment goes inside the INNER leaf room of the studio, NOT in between the inner leaf and outer leaf. What use is treatment that is not inside the room?

You have not yet shown your design for the inner leaf.

Quote:
I found out that the room has a plasterboard leaf around it already.
that will be your outer leaf. It will NOT be visible once you build your inner-leaf. Therefore there is no need to plaster it, or do any other finishing treatment. That surface will be inside your wall cavity, so it will never, ever be visible to anyone. There is no need to paint it, plaster it, or decorate it any way, nor to put any treatment on it.

Quote:
After that - two layers of gypsum boards will be added to the module and it will be moved to the front of the room like this:
At that point, it will weigh roughly 800 kg. Eight hundred kilograms. Roughly one thousand seven hundred pounds. How do you plan to move that across the floor?

It seems to me you don't have a clue about the weights, stresses, tensions, and structures involved here. ow do you plan to move something that weights over 800 kilograms?

Quote:
I am not yet sure if the framework would later serve other purposes when adding treatment..):
It wont. It will be INSIDE the wall cavity, between the two leaves. It serves no purpose at all.

Quote:
a team of around 8-10 people would lift the CEILING PIECE and put it on the existing framework,
People in Lithuania must be a lot stronger than I thought! Are you all professional weightlifters? Olympic champions? You say that each of those people will be capable of dead-lifting over one hundred kilograms, and raising it a meter above their heads, steadily and safely, then positioning it carefully, with accuracy, then holding it in place, while other people build two more walls under it....

This is NOT going to happen. You are NOT thinking this thing through. You have no idea what is going on here.

For example, you show the ceiling framing turned SIDEWAYS! :shock: :!: :roll: It is FLAT in all of your drawings. It will NOT be capable of supporting the huge load of two layers of drywall spanning 5m. Do you REALLY think that 40mm of wood can support that? According to standard span tables, you would need joists that are AT LEAST 190mm tall to support that load, provided that you have an excellent grade of structural wood, or 235mm tall for lower grades of wood. You are underestimating the structural strength of wood by a factor of nearly 600%.

If your team of Olympic weightlifting team did manage to lift that thing up, it would break and collapse on top of them, injuring or killing some of them as they tried. Having 800 kg fall on your head is not a good thing...

You CANNOT span more than a maximum of 1.3m using 2x4 joists on their sides, 600mm OC, with a dead load of 27 kg/m2, and deflection of L/720. That is the limit of the structural integrity of common joist wood.

I repeat: you have no idea what you are doing here. You should stop right now, and get professional help.

What you are suggesting is dangerous, illegal, and will result in injury.

Quote:
another team would put the FRONT WALL and the RIGHT WALL pieces for support
They won't need to, because the ceiling lift team will be crushed already: Better to use that wood to make stretchers to carry out the injured, and coffins to bury the dead.

Quote:
Yes Stuart, I would not do this whole plan on my own at any circumstances. Like i have mentioned before - my friend runs a construction company and he will aid me in all the ways needed. Construction, manpower and technology etc.
You have a friend who runs a construction company, and he told you that it was fine to use 2x4 joists laid 600mm OC on their SIDE to span a distance of 5 meters with a load of 800 kilograms????? And then he said it would be fine to have a few people hand lift that into place, and hold it there, by hand, while others build two more walls below it????? Really???? I find that very, very, VERY hard to believe.....

Remind me to never call your friend to build a house for me....

Quote:
I went with the modular path because building the CR with the dimensions i have chosen and adding gypsum to the ceiling would be impossible due to low ceiling of the initial room itself.
Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. It is NOT impossible at all! I did it a few weeks ago....

Here is a photo of a studio that I designed for a customer of mine in Australia. This ceiling was, indeed, built exactly the way you say it is "impossible" to build:

Joists going in:

Attachment:
CR-ceiling-main-beams-going-in-3-ROT-ENH.jpg



Cross bracing going in:

Attachment:
CR-ceiling-main-beams-going-in-5-ROT-ENH.jpg



In both of the above photos, there is a gap of just 4cm between the top of the inner-leaf joists and the bottom of the outer-leaf joists, which hold up the house above.


Here is the final completed ceiling:

Attachment:
CR-ceiling-up--Photo 29-01-2016 2 12 07 pm-CEILING-in.jpg


There's a layer of plywood on top of that framing, plus a layer of fiber-cement board, with a layer of Green Glue in between, for constrained layer damping. The total surface density of that is about the same as your two layers of drywall....

So tell me again how it is "impossible" to do this!!!!! . . .

Just because YOU don't know how to do it, and your "contractor" friend does not know how to do it, that does not mean that it is impossible. When done properly, not only is it possible, it is also simple and safe.

I do this all the time: It is very possible to do, and not that hard to do, when the studio is designed correctly and built correctly by people who know what they are doing.

It did not need a team of Olympic weight lifters to put that ceiling in: two man did it all by themselves, without any trouble, and without any danger. This is the final gap between the top of the inner-leaf ceiling, and the bottom of the outer-leaf ceiling.

Attachment:
Iso-ceiling-top-seal-from-above-with-silencer-Photo 8-01-2016 12 18 11 pm-SML-ENH.jpg


You can see the bottom edge of one of the engineered joists that holds up the house above, then the tiny gap to the top of the studio ceiling below.

It is NOT impossible: The proof is right there, in the photos.


Quote:
I have not yet done calculations for the structure.
That is obvious. And I doubt that you would even know HOW to do them. If you did know how to do them, you would never have designed a ceiling with the joists on their sides. Structural engineering is not something you can learn from a book in a few hours....

Do you ee the huge joists in that ceiling, in the pictures above? That's the size joists you need to support a modular ceiling that is designed and built correctly to isolate a studio well....

Quote:
I will ask colleagues to make these for me and if the structure is not efficient - I will update the framework with added support.
I would STRONGLY suggest that you should NOT do that! It is clear that you don't know what you are doing here, and you are just guessing. Hire an experienced studio designer to design te entire studio for you, and a qualified structural engineer to do the calculations and check the structures for you, and a qualified, experienced contractor to build it for you.

If you continue down the current path, your plan is doomed to failure. You might very well end up with seriously injured people, or dead people, if you try to do that. Do not try.

Quote:
Do you mean I should use 16 mm even if i plan to add 2 layers of 12,5?
Yes. Two layers of 16mm drywall, for a total of 32mm. of drywall, plus 235mm of joists to support it.

Quote:
The company that rents the premise has approved the concept.
Is the "company that rents the premise" a qualified structural engineering company? Will they sign in writing that they approve supporting a load of 800 kg on 2x4 ceiling joists set sideways and spaced 600 OC? I would REALLY like to see such a letter, signed by them....

Quote:
I have no intent for the sole plate to be visible.
Why do you think it would be visible???? Once again, it is clear that you have no idea about construction. The sole plates will NOT be visible, if the room is finished correctly... and if you cover them with cement, then you will NOT be able to finish the room correctly! How would you attach your wall covering, if there are no sole plates to attach it to???? :shock:

Quote:
Also, I wanted the door of the CR to be as close to the floor as possible (I though they operate better and longer when closer to floors).
Wrong again. This is a studio. You need multiple threshold seals under the bottom of the door. Like this:

Attachment:
door-threshold-Photo 16-02-2016 12 31 58 pm_ENH-SML.jpg


There are three complete seals around that door, one of which is a spring-loaded drop-down seal that is activated by closing the door.

So what you thought is wrong. That is not the correct way to build a studio door. It cannot be "as close to the floor as possible".


-----


My advice to you would be to STOP. Don't design any more, and don't build anything at all until you either fully understand the concepts, or have hired people who do understand them to do it for you.


- Stuart -


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:59 pm 
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Well damn..

That last post is quite a slap to the face, Stuart! But I guess I needed one :horse:

You are correct in most of the remarks and I admit - I did not fully think the framing through when I did it.. I do that sometimes because of impatience. And im very eager to go through this build ASAP, thats why I rushed to do the framing "just to do it"..

Like you mentioned - I did not get a contractors approval for the design, I just got the approval for the build concept of a room in a room and no other details were discussed (because obviously the design is not finished).

I am well into Rod Gervais book at the moment and once i finish that ill go on to something more detailed, because I still want to do the design myself (Im pretty stubborn about my goals, even if I underestimated the efforts I need to achieve them). One thing i know i will consult a structural engineer about framing techniques (I have watched several videos and read some rough specifications after your comment to get an idea of what im dealing with, but I wil definitely consult a professional. ESPECIALLY ABOUT MOUNTING DOUBLE GYPSUM IN TIGHT CEILINGS!!!)

At this point I finished (at least i think so) a super door design according to Rod Gervais book and once i further my knowledge on framing - I will continue with that part of the design.

I understand some of my ideas can be frustrating and some of your replies are frustrating to me too, because what I have in my mind is exactly what you mention, I just might not have the proper level of technical english to fully explain, but that is because I lack the experience on the topic.

I will spend some time studying and return with a revamped design within a month or two.

Thank You for your tireless effort dealing with us 'noobs' here, Stuart!

Cheers,
M.

P.S. I really appreciate the jokes about the stretchers and coffins as well as olympic weightlifters (even though yes, a lot of my friends are professional arm wrestlers and im not a very 'small' guy myself, so maybe lifting wouldnt be a big problem after all) :!: But I literally laughed out loud when i read those comments, thanks for some of the irony - it helps with overconfidence :cop:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Hey Anton. No problem! Glad that you took it with a sense of humor, and realized where I was coming from. I really am trying to help you, and trying to keep you safe (along with your Olympic weightlifters... :) ) I guess I just gave it out a bit too strongly there. Sorry if I offended you. But you did get the point I was trying to make!

Quote:
And im very eager to go through this build ASAP, thats why I rushed to do the framing "just to do it"..
Understood! Maybe you should call your place "Studio Nike" when it is finished... :shot: :)

Quote:
I am well into Rod Gervais book at the moment and once i finish that ill go on to something more detailed, because I still want to do the design myself (Im pretty stubborn about my goals, even if I underestimated the efforts I need to achieve them).
Rod's book is good for learning the ins and outs of studio construction, and the pifalls to avoid, and all the details that you need to get in to, but I'd still suggest you get Master Handbook of Acoustics ("MHoA") and work your way through that too. It gives you the acoustic background that you need to understand why things should be designed they way they are. It's an excellent book. Acoustics is not intuitive in many ways: sound does not actually behave the way we think it does. It's a lot more complex than most people think, so it's very necessary to learn about how it REALLY works, to take that into account in your design.

Quote:
One thing i know i will consult a structural engineer about framing techniques (I have watched several videos and read some rough specifications after your comment to get an idea of what im dealing with, but I wil definitely consult a professional. ESPECIALLY ABOUT MOUNTING DOUBLE GYPSUM IN TIGHT CEILINGS!!!)
Yup. That's a lot of mass. Drywall weighs around 12kg per square meter (16mm fire-rated drywall), so two layers of that covering 30 m2 really is 720 kg. I wasn't kidding bout that. Plus the weight of the timber itself, plus nails, insulation, Green Glue (if you use it), caulk, and everything else. 800 kg is actually probably on the low side. That's why I never try to raise entire ceilings at once. It's just too heavy ant too dangerous.

Quote:
I understand some of my ideas can be frustrating and some of your replies are frustrating to me too, because what I have in my mind is exactly what you mention, I just might not have the proper level of technical english to fully explain, but that is because I lack the experience on the topic.
Your English is pretty darn good, actually! It's one hell of a lot better than my grasp of Lithuanian, which is a bit less than nothing at all...

Quote:
Thank You for your tireless effort dealing with us 'noobs' here, Stuart!
:thu: Thanks for the kind words, especially in light of my previous post.... :)

I'm sure we can figure out how to make your place work. The best thing of all is that you got the message, and didn't go berserk: instead, you realized where I was going, and decided to take the time to slow down and do it right. I have a feeling your place is going to work out really well in the end. (but I do have my doubts about this other one... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20410& ) :)

I'm looking forward to seeing your updated design. Let me know if you need help with that.


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