John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

<snork>

You're asking ME?!? OOOF...

You're the qualified carpenter... I'm just the idiot with a hole in his pocket...


But having built 6 of them pretty much by myself, I can ASSURE you, that the backing between the door frames that appears to be quite thick... absolutely requires the hinge side to be firmly attached at every single level.

I took each slab door and put it on the floor. I built a frame with 5/4" stock, set the hinges and lifted the door square in the frame. Set the frame in the door, and packed the spacing with rigid foam, pink fluffy, then socked the hinge side down as level as I could, with 3" screws. Then I screwed the opening and top. Taking great care to check plumb, square and level. And even doing all that, I have one door that still needs a tweek... but taking that door off the hinge is out of the question. And all because of some minor warp in the framing I didn't catch.

I can't tell you exactly the number of nails and screws that are involved in the whole assembly, but I made damn sure that the inner most plates were attached to the actual framing, or at least the actual hinge plate. Which, in my case I chose 5/4" 4S kiln dried pine.

The rest of the framing is air dried white oak off the property.

The oak gives me a lot of added structural rigidity in the holding power of the door assembly... which you need, but not enough. Wood will always expand and contract. So, you have to add as much stability as you can, in how you nail the assembly together. I used 3" 16ga finish to attach the first 3 layers if the frame. It's only the 4th and final bank vault trim that got nailed with a 2" nail.

Four of my Superdoors, have a window consisting of two sheets of 3/4" glass. To make up for the additional losses of the opening, and any potential lowering of the f0 of the door, I added 1/32" additional sheet lead to what Rod calls for. (Call me paranoid... but mass is your friend.)

In the end, I'm gonna guestimate that the average door weight is 650lbs... if one were to let go, and fall on someone... it would most assuredly kill them.

Do NOT take it lightly in how you put your door assemblies together.

_________________
Good stuff ain't cheap and cheap stuff ain't always good.

Studio Build Insanity: DM Mobile/Dark Pines Studios
(A Rod Gervais Designed Room)

here's what i typically do on the door question. to Max's point, the mass of the door can be quite high - probably 300lb minimum.

_________________
Glenn

I am aware this is Rod's diagram, I have the book as well. What I was saying is that this overhead shot looses a lot in how it is being framed.

"you can bridge it like mentioned but the hinge side."

The hinge side has to be secured directly to the rough framing since it carries all the weight.

'sall I was saying...

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

First ... a big HELLO to 'MadMax' !

Thanks for stopping in and posting ... I had been to your thread to see your amazing project.
I need to go back and re-read !

But THANKS for sharing your experience & insights !
Will get back after the re-read.

Ahhh ... to Glenn. Thank-you.

Fate has once again altered things ... my finishing carpenter will be out of commission for
about a month Just confirmed this last night.

This afternoon I went to one of the top 'mill' companies in our area to present the design &
requirements for the door. I also had them look at the hinges I purchased ... got the BIG
nod of approval !

After the 'kidding' on a bullet proof door, or one that Superman couldn't peer into They
got down to the specifics and implementation ... in full agreement to the design and the
required 'break' in flanking. Needless to say that I was glad to see their cooperation with
this. [Maybe the $$$ my brother sends through them had a bit of influence]

So ... here's were I'm at:

1. Get final measurements verified.

2. Specify raw materials.

The 1-3/4" solid core door is Birch. [OK?]

The question raise ? What type of wood for the 5/4" jamb

Now ... without going completely off the deep end with some wild,exotic jamb lumber ... I
also want to avoid lumber that would have issues [basement, humidity, warp, split, and
whatever else can go wrong]. It would also be nice to be able to put a nice finish [stain] on
it.
The mill can get any type of wood wanted. The initial thought is possibly a hardwood,
rather than something like pine [soft]. The word 'Oak' was brought out. No mention of
price as yet So, GANG ... lookin' for some reasoned choice of preference !?!?!

Thank-you berry much and thanks for the diagram Glenn.

the jamb with the door could be oak and the jamb extension pine if you're painting or not worried about matching. the door core can be oak or other heavy hardwood.

_________________
Glenn

Thanks for your input Max...

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Wow ... Still so many things to do ....

Door ... getting it together ... slowly

Another question ...

I have the GM gasket for the seals ... but wondering ...

What suggestions for bottom threshold ???

I've looked at the various designs, and concerned about how they seal to the floor.

Wondering about the 'guillotine' style, or something by Zero International ???

Any recommends ?

Thanks again

I used a "standard" exterior adjustable threshold along with the Zero guillotine and Zero magnetic strips/gaskets.

Seems to be fine... pricey... but good stuff ain't cheap, and cheap stuff ain't always good.

_________________
Good stuff ain't cheap and cheap stuff ain't always good.

Studio Build Insanity: DM Mobile/Dark Pines Studios
(A Rod Gervais Designed Room)

Hi Max !

Finally found your 'build thread' ... [a different forum] ...

Yea ... I've been searching around, looking at different 'thresholds'. The thing is, many of
the designs I've seen, LOOK to be a massive sound leak. Sure ... we can get a sealing to
the back side of the door. But when I look at the bottom section of these plates, with their
slight rise, they are hollow underneath.

I even modeled one of the ZERO INT thresholds in SketchUP.

Hoping that I could get a virtual look to see how acoustically 'tight' I could get it. Of course,
NOT having one on site ... I STILL feel like I'd be guessing.

Too ADD to the issue ... I pretty sure that I need to submit the exact height of this door
to the Mill, Which means I need to know what GAP to have between the concrete floor
to the bottom of the door.

And to keep it all FUN ... I have to factor in a floor slope.

The 'plan' was to install the door, and then do a 'box-in' to add leveling cement.

A CRAZY thought [of mine] was to see if the Mill could build the jamb, mount the door
and hinges, and then square-brace the jamb. THEN, remove the door. We could then
installed the braced jamb, finish out the drywall, and then work an actual threshold in place.
Cut door to known height & install. yeah ... I'm sure that would work

Obviously more searching ... but I sure appreciate insights, comments, suggestions !!

Big THANKS!!!

---- EDIT ----

HAH ... just when you thought I couldn't ask another DUMB question

Do I even NEED a threshold

Can a 'guillotine' seal the door straight to the concrete ... if there is, say, a 1/4" slope in the
floor ??? Honestly, I would prefer NOT to have something to step over. My only concern
is maximizing isolation.

humble thanks

Progress report ...

Scoping out the door area.

Good meeting with contractor. Went through the door design & layout ON SITE.

Talked with the Mill guys ... they are coming in Monday afternoon to do an on site
verification of measurements & layout. PLUS ... they just want to see the place

I am looking at a potential issue.

Attaching the hinge.

Here's a SU pix:

OK ... we are looking face on to the hinge. I have temporally removed the jamb so that
the framing surface is exposed to hi-lite the issue.

The yellow-ish section is the 2x4 stud frame. Directly 'behind' the hinge you can see the 2
layers of 5/8" drywall.

THE ISSUE.

Of the 4 visible screw holes that mount the hinge to the jamb, we would like to get 2 of
the screws to fasten deep into the actual framing. Without splitting the frame wood.

From my virtual reality model ... it looks like we have very little meat to screw into. This
stems from the fact that the drywall forces the jamb edge to protrude 1-1/4" into the room.

Now these hinges are extra HD Stanley FBB199 5" x 4.5" 32D.

I don't know how, or if, the hinge can be set further back into the jamb, and STILL allow
the door to open properly.

Sure could use some expert advice !!!

Thanks.

Door hinge -> frame attach idea

OK ... putting an idea out there, welcome insights/comments, suggestions.

As mentioned, the issue of getting [at least] one screw through the door hinge that
would penetrate through the jamb INTO the framing.

Due to the two layers of 5/8" drywall, the jamb would have to extend 'into' the room by
1-1/4", whereby the drywall would flush-butt against it. [Glenn's detail] This puts the
hinge holes near the edge of the 2x4 frame.

The idea I'm throwing around is to use a 2"x6" as the stud that the jamb would contact.
[Maybe this is called the 'Jack or King Stud'] ?!?

I'm thinking that this 2x6 stud would extend 5/8" past the floor/ceiling plates.
Then, the first layer of drywall would butt up to this 2x6 side, and then the second layer
of drywall would butt to the jamb [thereby covering the 2x6] in a type of overlap.

Then we would use a 1x3[?] trim to cover the jamb/2x6 seam.

here a SU pix:


Again ... thinking that we need more meat area to screw into.

NOTE: if this changes anything ... the jamb material is slated as Red Oak.

Am I worrying for nothin' Do I need to get a screw into the frame, or is the jamb enough ?

Please guide me here.
Thanks!


OH ... the hinge is [obviously] open in my pix. It should be closed and connected to the
side of door ... but I've not had time to figure out how, in SketchUP, to do on moveable
part. Too many important things to do & learn.

if you consider the entire door and jamb as an assembly you can position the jamb flush to the framing (eliminating the meat issue) and you could use a bit of 5/4 to extend the jamb to the drywall face, or you could single layer of 5/8" drywall behind the trim board with a corresponding offset of the trim and drywall to allow the door to swing cleanly. this means the trim is slightly inset into the drywall level but if you have not other option then that will work. not different than typical door installation except you're working with additional drywall depth and a 500lb door use the door closer to control the range of motion or use a door stop. on the floor seal - if you find an adjustable seal which can be angled across the slope that could eliminate the threshold although the threshold will give you a more reliable seal.

_________________
Glenn

Not to 100% ignore other responses - but ignoring the other well qualified responses...

I built the doors exactly as Rod has them drawn... less the zero guillotine seal on three doors... and there are no major issues.

Rod's drawings are exacting in their detail and accuracy.

The primary thing you want to remember is that wherever air goes, so goes sound.... thus, caulking the bottom and edges of the jamb, threshold and similar edges will stop the MF/HF sound. The mass is there to stop the LMF and LF sounds.

If nothing else, take your time and build the frames with the threshold and door in place. Then, as you said, put the door in place - plum, square and level. Then seal the perimeter and then add your additional blocking and stops. That's the way I did it... except I left the door in position as I added the lead, plywood, windows and finishes. (I did cut the window openings prior to building the frame assemblies to make it easier to install the windows... accuracy of cuts and all that.)

_________________
Good stuff ain't cheap and cheap stuff ain't always good.

Studio Build Insanity: DM Mobile/Dark Pines Studios
(A Rod Gervais Designed Room)

Gentlemen ... thank you for your replies !

Just wanted to post an update here.

Had an on site meeting with the Mill company to look over the door build today.

The guy [Richard] was great. He was VERY interested with the entire concept & build that
we have going. He had a keen eye, and acknowledged the level and detail of work that has
already gone in. Specifically focused to the critical nature of the door, seals & entrance.
And particularly mindful of the weight. It was also nice that he had close relations to music
and studios, so we chatted across several topics Very nice.

He went through the entire door layout, diagramming the exact measurements for the split
jamb [by Glenn] that we want to implement.

When he gets to the office, they will draw up their own build detail ... but also, check further
into specific woods to use.

He mentioned that 'oak' is a hardwood, but that it is porous. Suggested were words like
maple & birch [i believe ?]. He said he would get me choices to use. Obviously, wood
properties is not something I that familiar with. Him being a master woodsman would heed
to his advice.

Richard also was concerned about keeping the door closed tight. He was not pleased with
the idea of using a dead bolt on the inside. The 'door closer' would NOT be sufficient to
keep a door sealed tight. Of course ... the LOOK I got from my Home Inspector brother told
me what he thought of the idea soooo .... Richard gave a name to a specialty
place that does things like freezer doors. He said they probably have already invented the
wheel for this, and would have a solution. They may also have a better 'sealing' material
or product than what I currently have ... hmm.

So ... this be all I know.

The WILL be a question about how to best mount the lead sheet & plywood face to the
door. I'm thinkin' bolting the 'sandwich' together. But here we go putting HOLES into it
What I was attempting to avoid with the door latch.

If anyone tells you that building an isolated controlled room is easy ... well don't believe
it.

As always ... Thank-you you for sharing and guidance!

Sincerely.

ok ... this question keeps coming up ... been reading searched threads here regarding
door latches.

The 'inspector' is frowning the use of a dead-bolt on the interior side of the CR door.

Here's the deal ...

I do NOT need to LOCK this door ... I only need to have a firm 'close' to maintain a solid
acoustic seal.

I a response, Rod says he used a dead-bolt ... but others have said 'ya gotta do what you
gotta do' ...

So I need to do something ... what of the idea of using one of the commercial latched door
handles that use a thumb trigger to release the door ?

I was trying to avoid open holes ... but ... if this is the ONLY way to go ... any insights.

I did see mention of using a magnetic grabber ... but I'm convince that breaking the magnetic
'lock' to open the door wouldn't be a PITA for daily use.

Thanks for sharing ideas, suggestions.


====EDIT ====

of course I find another thread.

Rod says ...

"if you never want to lock the door - then you really don't need a latch......

a closure will close and hold closed a door........ especially if you have magnetic weatherstripping..........

so beyon that all you need is a pull for the outside (door opens to you) and a push plate for the inside (a push plate is always nicer than getting your bodily oils all over a nice door finish).

Rod"

So I guess I won't know UNTIL I get the door completely mounted
I think I still should have a 'What-IF' plan ready.