John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

very good! carry on then!

_________________
Glenn

I hope you took my previous message with a bit of humor

OK then .... we have ceiling insulation installed ! It has been difficult to get any good
photos of this ... but here are a couple ...




Lighting & angle have been tough on the iPhone camera ... hope you can make it out

Besides the ceiling area, I have finished up both 'kick-in' corners. The one by the sump pump
need blocking up in the joist bins for the outer wall drywall. Blocking and insulation are in.
Even harder to get pics of that ... but I'm both glad I got it in ... all sealed with caulking, and
insulated. Here's one pix of just the blocking ...



Other things ...

Awhile back, I was looking into the isolation sway brackets ... anticipating the need to
stabilize the inner wall build. In doing so, I talked to Kelly at PAC INTERNATIONAL with a few
questions. She said that she would have someone call me back ... and someone did. His
name was a bit hard to catch, but I got it down as 'Elzo' ???!? The conversation started
off on the difficult side as I tried to explain what I was doing and looking to resolve. Well,
Elzo started asking a whole bunch of direct questions ... and even, kinda, painting me into
a corner [not in a real bad way], but I was definitely sensing that I was undergoing a test.
All I had to go on was the teaching/guidance I've gotten from Glenn & Stuart [at that time].
Once I was able to defend all the direct questions he put to me ... and then explain the
design ... everything started taking on a whole different tone He started talking to me
about isolation stuff [in a friendly] ... but very serious/passionate way. He asked more
about what I had been doing in the music field ... which he said he had already Google'd me
on ... ok .... but the conversation then went on for over an hour, as we talked about
all things music, recording, acoustics and science. It was a facinating conversation.
He also talked about some very special people here [Glenn] ... and mentioned that multi-talents
they have ... besides designers ... I hear we are also in the company of accomplished
musicians !! Anyway ... he expressed HIGH compliments to you!
I told him I felt very priviledge to be under your design & implimentation guidance.

Well ... we talked over many things, so the specifics I relayed may have jumbled a bit ...
but it was wonderful. And to the main reason, Elzo said that I could use the RSIC-DC04 HD
decoupling sway brace clips. Strategically placing 2 per wall, and specifics on the door hinge
section. Sending me all the data sheets too !!! Done as he instructed, he said less than 1%
transmission. OK. order a dozen clips.
NOW that all the walls and joist are assembled ... the inner room structure is very sturdy.
Attempts to push/pull on the structure yield maybe 1/16-> 1/8" movement ... if that.
With that in mind ... I went ahead and installed the clips. They are 'lightly' touching the
outer wall surface. My thinking was to provide a fail-safe security brace that would prevent
the inner walls from moving ... if someone fell into the wall ... or more so, the possible stress
from the super door opening & closing. Maybe this is extreme overkill ?!?
What I DIDN'T do was install a connecting pin/screw through the center of the isolation
rubber section.
Here's a pic showing the inner wall to foundation contact.

With 2 clips positioned on each of the 4 inner walls the movement is restricted in all directions.

Let me stop at this point ...

There are some questions coming in ... especially on the electrical runs into the room that I
would like to bounce around.

very good move on the clips since the room is going to be several tons when finished and having it topple on you would not be good. on the electrical, i'd penetrate the room once, put in a box in the room if you need to, and route all electric ducts on the isolation surfaces, you can use absorbers and treatments to hide most of it. put the room electric on a single leg from your main power and ideally a separate leg from your inductive equipment.

_________________
Glenn

Hi Glenn !

Thanks for the confirmation on using the clips ! I will now go ahead and finish stapling in
the insulation in those areas.

Da 'Super Door'.

OK ... after hitting several auto stores & dealers, I finally found a, somewhat, nearby
place that ordered the seal for the door. What came in does NOT look quite as beefy as
in the catalogue


Did I get the right stuff ????

Electrical feed into room.

Might be getting ahead of myself, but trying to get some kind of a 'fuzzy' plan together

The requirements:

The 'hardware' will be computer based. I currently use a 1500VA battery back-up regulator
that handles the 'puter, screen, & misc. For the 'near-future", I will be adding additional
computer server(s) that will be networked to the main system [LAN - most likely].
Whether these 'servers' will be physically located in the control room is yet to be determined.
They may end up outside the front wall, with cable runs into the CR. Noise & heat will help
in that decision.
Beside computer needs, I plan to switch over to 2 or 3 LCD widescreen monitors. My 2 CTR
20" ones are just to bulky.
Additionally I have a synth & drum machine that would be nice. It would be prudent to
have headroom for expansion

Lighting for the CR has been on ongoing search. With concerns over heat along with the
limitations in the ceiling height, I've been searching out the LCD track lighting, and some
form of sconce lighting on the walls [dim-able].
I tend to work in low-level lighting normally. Bright lighting needed to clean & vacuum.

Along with electrical, I'm trying to plan a way for future 'data' lines that I would like to keep
separate from the AC feeds.

The idea I've been toying with goes something like this:

Using PVC tube. Cut it in half. With the use of a rubber 'coupler', connect the 2 pieces into
one that would penetrate the width of both 2x4 walls. Using some type of large grommet
sleeve that would be mounted in the drywall hole to pass the tube thru. Caulk edges.
At the ends of the PVC tube I would cut a notch that would let the cable 'hang' down
from. INSIDE the tube ends, put some heavy electrical putty inside a heavyduty baggy, and
stuff that into the end of the tube, covering the wires going into the slit. THEN ... cover the
end of the tube with a rubber cap.
Something like this:


Now ... this is just an idea.

The electrician is thinking of just punching a hole for the electric wire ... caulk it, and mount
a box inside. I don't know.

After all the warnings about putting ANY holes in these walls ... and seeing what others have
done to seal electrical boxes, etc ... I'm really thinking of going the 'conduit' lines throughout
the room. Like you would see in one of those modular office partitions.
The issue with those [besides cost] is HOW to actually MOUNT the conduits ! Are we
talking liquid nailing wood to the drywall, and then screwing conduit, boxes, and light switches
into the wood??? Track lighting too
This is ALSO going to be THE issue when it comes time to mount the acoustic panels on
the walls and the ceiling clouds. Maybe the electrical and DATA ports are handled differently?

Well ... I've probably driven you crazy [a long time ago] with all these nit-pic questions, I
apologize for that ! .... but I need to know the best way to implement this

Once again ... thank-you thank-you !!!

the seal looks right. you use 2 set of seals to ensure proper operation. this way if a seal starts to degrade or otherwise fail, you have the second set to back that up until you can replace it.

on the electrical - use a split on the conduit for the power to decouple it. use an entry on one space within the studs and the exit on another - this way you don't have back to back holes. seal thoroughly and seal the ends of the conduit when done wiring. use multiple circuits for the lights. i like to run track lights off switched outlets so i can vary the lamps that are on for a given switch setting. low light - 3-4 lights up front, medium front + 3-4 lights in the back, full, 4-6 more lights around as needed to see everything as much as possible. if you need to go dimmer - use variacs not electronic dimmers. http://www.variac.com/staco_variable_tr ... _500_s.htm (note these are for incandescent and LED which can use voltage levels for dimming)

_________________
Glenn

Alright !!! Understood on the double seal. One seal hits the door proper, the second seal
will be landing on the 1" plywood board [offset ~1" from door edge]. I'm temp holding on
the 3rd magnetic seal ... if I gotta do it ... we'll know

Electrical ...


ahh ... this may be the tough part.

Here's what we have ... between the 2 double walls, there is about an 1-1/2" gap between
the plates. The 'total' thickness of the 2 walls span ~8-1/2".
Based on the way the 'room-inside-a-room' laid out, the studs are offset about an 1" apart
between the 2 walls.

WOW ... trying to visualize how this is to go is makin' the head hurt

alright ... I need to think this through, cause so far I'm seeing many issue about this.
1st being ... running conduit into and across wall studs. Are we drilling holes into the studs
too ?!?!?
2. certainly the conduit cannot be allowed to short circuit the 2 walls.
3. bending wire at 90 degree turns ... especially if the conduit is sized to be minimal.
4. This goes in BEFORE the drywall goes on ... then we have to cut to locate ?!?

OK ... and probably I'm just not following this correctly ... maybe some pics or an example
link would help.
The other question ... how much would the difference be as opposed to the straight through
tube thats properly sealed & decoupled ???

Sorry ... the head is spinning ... please help me see !

you might drill through one set of studs or the other if the conduit doesn't fit between them. this shouldn't be different than normal wiring tactics in that regard.

_________________
Glenn

Progress report ...

Well ... took a little break after getting all this insulation installed.
It's been fascinating to hear the sonic changes that have evolved... going
from a huge echo chamber now to this 'dry/deadish' sound. The ears kinda 'pop' when
I walk into room

All of this is about to dramatically change now that the 1st layer of inner room drywall
was just delivered today. Also grabbed a few pounds of both 1-5/8" & 2-1/2"
coarse drywall screws along with several drywall countersink adapters for the drills.


And of course ................. more CAULK

Due to storage restrictions, I figured that I would get materials to deal with only the 1st
layer of 'skin' for the inner room. This way we can get a good feel for how this goes AND
I won't feel rushed when I go in to seal all the seams and caulk perimeters.

Right now I'm trying to plan the best layout for the drywall, since this is going to be the
'base' layer ... I'd like to ensure that the seams for the final second layer overlap correctly,
and that the 'cuts' required are minimized for this final layer. Remembering that we'll be
using 2 cartridges of GreenGlue/4x8 sheet 'sandwich'.

Have some important playing gigs coming up with the band, so we are looking at the
schedule to start the drywall.

Order of procedure ....

Glenn [or anyone else who may be following this ] ... I'm thinking through the various
issues that will be coming up when we'll need to penetrate the room for electrical, HVAC,
fresh air, and possible 'data' lines. To these particular issues, my thinking is that I will hold
off drywalling the outer walls [which currently have insulation just placed into the wells].
With that, I'd still have some access to get at openings, and be able to properly seal them
from the 'inner side'. I realize that the outer skin needs to be in place before I can do any
routing of conduit etc ... but at least I wouldn't close myself out till the last moment !

When we do get to drywalling ... I've been reading through many of the other builds here,
but one question still lingers.

Since we will start with the ceiling ... does this 1st layer ceiling get mounted 'tight' to the
corner of the top plate & joist ???

I understand that the walls will be offset from the floor, the ceiling, and corners.
For that I grabbed a handful of paint stir sticks. The small ones have a 1/8" thickness, while the BIG STICk
has an 1/4" thickness. I planned to place 2 spacers on the floor an temp tape 2 to the
ceiling ... which thickness should I use ?

Again ... thanks for keeping me on the straight & narrow

make your conduits into the room big enough to feed the wiring through. same approach for the AC unit plumbing. then seal those conduits when done.

_________________
Glenn

Which 'spacing' would you want me to use ??

Also ... the 1st ceiling layer ... is it OK to to a 'normal' install of drywall tight to the plate
and joist corners? I understand the 2nd layer ceiling will be offset from the 1st wall layer by
whatever gap you say.

Thanks!!

ok ... more reading of the forum ...

Thinking through my last question ... it seems to make more sense to
go with the 1/4" spacing on the perimeter [big stick] so as to enable
sufficient space to insert caulk.

To the mounting of the 1st ceiling layer, the initial concern was generated by the
discussion of 'flanking' into the surrounding walls ... however, with ceiling joist resting
on the inner wall top plate, the connection has been made. No doubt that the surface
area of the drywall will respond to sound pressure to a much higher order than the
framing could.

The initial conclusion seems, installing the 1st layer ceiling as any 'normal' install. That is,
allowing the edges to touch the side top plate. The 'best' that can be done is to 1/4" gap the
wall perimeters, and seal with caulk.

I hesitate to draw these conclusions. Maybe just yielding to practicality

basically leave the 1/4" gap wherever - on the edges of the ceiling, between layer edges etc. this allows you a margin of error to avoid contacting the surfaces.

_________________
Glenn

It's all about contraction and expansion...and reducing hard connections.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Alright Glenn ... I'll follow your instructions on the gap ... although I admit, I'm not fully
understanding the implications of the 1st ceiling layer touching the top plate.
Other than the 'safety margin' for the side walls ! No doubt, assembling something with
actual materials can bring out the challenge To 'that' concern, I do have to be ever
mindful that my construction crew is sensitive to the build criteria. OH .... did I just make
an insinuation about the 'crew' Strike that


other events ...

Yesterday a meeting with the contractor and an excellent finishing carpenter.
SUBJECT: The DOOR.
I'll pulled out all the charts, graphs, & diagrams ... and even had a 'building block' display
going. They said it was quite the show ... I try

The original slab of door has been questioned, as I find out that there are 'panel' design
that have been routed into the solid core door I'm NOT sure what issues this would
cause with the added 'beef-up' that need happen. Kinda disappointed to now hear this, as
there was a sentimental factor influencing this piece.
Once they understood that a layer of 3/4" [as req in Rod's book], or maybe 1" finished
plywood was being added ... we may have to just buy a raw, solid core door.

QUESTION ... the 'lead' that is asked for in this door sandwich brought out the stare from the
crowd. Like ... where the heck are we to get something like that ! The last news on LEAD
was that they were looking to ban it from human contact .... or something like that.

Substitute ?!?! would a 1" plywood layer with Green Glue be any type of substitute ?
.... just asking.

All of this plays into the next bit of ordering, and that be the hinges. The contenders are
the ZERO Z950 or the Z955. [500lb & 300lb load respectively]. The carpenter has indicated
the preference for using 3 hinges whichever.

Of course ... this is in a basement and we have a slope in the floor. [particularly just where
the door has to go ... ] So, the plan is this ... for not much $$$, we will have a
'mock up' door and frame built and test installed to see what we really have to deal with,
before we go hitting the expensive stuff. Sounded reasonable ...

well ... before you are bored even further beyond tears ... I say good nite as I prep for
tomorrows out of town gig.

As always ... Sincere THANK-YOU !

The gap around the drywall on the first layer isn't critical if the top plate and joists are in full contact anyways but it sets the stages for all the other gaps and trains the 'crew' to adhere to the remaining layers where it is important. On the door, the routed areas should be filled. Sheet lead is available and after it's installed it is away from human contact. You should be able to locate a supplier locally. Balancing your costs and proper support will decide on 3 or 4 hinges.

_________________
Glenn