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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Location: West Seneca, NY
OK ... playing around with cloud mount idea ...

Is this the way I should be hanging these clouds ?
Attachment:
Mount Ceiling Clouds - 1.jpg


Basically .... 1x3 wood strips that are drywall screwed to the ceiling joists, and then a 'butterfly bolt' through the wood & ceiling drywall.
Attach an eye-bolt, then an S-hook to a chain down to an eye-bolt mounted to the plywood/MDF board.
There would be 4 in the corners per cloud.

BTW ... I put the boards on a scale, and they clocked in at 50 lbs. With the addition of
insulation and cage [etc], should be another 18lbs ... so it looks like EACH panel will weigh
in at about 70 lbs [each]. Not as bad as I first thought ... still, not to take lightly.

How OFF am I in hanging idea :roll:

Is there a better way ???


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:43 am 
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if you can just hang then into the joists, best, 1x3 next best. the toggle is probably over doing it but if you feel safer that way then do it. you do want to get your friend caulk in there to seal that hole though.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Thank you Glenn!

I can tell that you must be very busy at this time, and I definitely appreciate your advice 8)

If I may re ask a question about the 'hanging' height of the wall broadband absorbers panels.

Due to the, still unknown, amount/placement of treatment that may be required beyond what
you diagrammed in your design for me ... [along with minimizing holes to the walls] ...

What recommendation would you have placing these wall panels. The panels are 2'x4'x4". The
walls are ~82" high. My 'tweets' are at 51" from the floor.

When sitting ... ear height is 50". Standing ear height is 68".

What height would be the best. Obviously, seated while mixing is priority ... but I'd like to
get a good standing listen too?

Thanks again! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:24 am 
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Gee ...

I HOPE all is well with our resident GURU and Guardian Angel, Glenn !!!

May he be busy creating someone another masterpiece ... and making a bunch $$$.

Sincerely.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:44 pm 
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You may be asking too much from a 4 foot tall treatment. You should consider the seating position first, and take care of that with your treatments. If, when you stand, your treatments are below or @ your ear level, simply construct a treatment extension that helps to reach both of your goals.

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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:46 pm 
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xSpace wrote:
You may be asking too much from a 4 foot tall treatment. You should consider the seating position first, and take care of that with your treatments. If, when you stand, your treatments are below or @ your ear level, simply construct a treatment extension that helps to reach both of your goals.


hmmm ... this is what I'm trying to figure out.

Absolutely the seating position in the critical [initial] treatment ... but here's the thing ...
I've not figured out how to temporarily place the panels in position to try an REW measurement. :?
When I refer to Glenns' design, he placed the panels, some, 19" off the floor. What I would
LIKE to assume, is that Glenn did this for a specific reason. Or perhaps, he was merely showing
the 'typical' idea of where the panels might hang.
I've been all over this site [and Ethan's site], and other than a 1st reflection zone calculator,
nothing seems to address the vertical placement issue.

Is there any available documentation that I could be directed to, to better understand ??

Thanks!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:24 pm 
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Progress Report ..

After several busy weeks with band, I was able to get some time in hanging my broadband
absorbers :yahoo:

After much searching on the height issue of hanging on the walls, I tried to figure a sensible
approach to this. Here was the thinking ... the height of my monitors have a 'center'
measurement of 45" from the floor to the 'point' between the woofer & the tweeter. I used
THAT point as my center of the absorber, going 2' above and below the 'monitor center'.

The then figured a distance to screw in a 1x3 into the walls that would hold the wall hooks.
Once I located the wall studs, using both a stud finder and a magnet, I mounted the 1x3
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000451.jpg

I then modified some wall hooks, cutting off the insert so that I can attach directly to the
1x3 with a 1" drywall screw.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000452.jpg

On the back of the absorber panels, I riveted hooks that allowed an S-hook and chain to be
attached.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000453.jpg

At the bottom of the panel, I'm trying out 4" bolts that are locked to the frame. I added a
sticky pad that should provide some vibration transfer attenuation.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000454.jpg

Some views around the work room. At this point I have the panels in a 'raw' state [no
fabric] until I'm certain the treatment is working and positioned correctly.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000455.jpg

Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000456.jpg

Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000457.jpg

Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000458.jpg


The placement of the panels ... hmmm.
Well ... the ONLY panels that got positioned SPECIFICALLY were the 1st panels on the
side walls in front of the main corner traps. For this I used the 'Wall Bounce Calculator' to
see how that worked ... but, with an assistant, we slid a mirror along the wall while I looked
for the 'opposite' side monitor to be visible. I moved back & forth in the chair to view at
close [leaned in] position AND back at the 'focus' behind the head position ... we found
a good balance point to position THAT panel. The next panel [directly at the main seating
position was also set with leaning back and forth in mind.
The front wall panels are basically centered inside the monitors.

The door panel still needs to go on ... AND the very back wall, but that is on hold until we
get the HVAC unit installed.

We are going with the MITSUBISHI MSZ-FE12NA and MUZ-FE12NA Mr SLIM ductless AC/HEAT
system, as it seems the only sensible option given the house and room layout.

Well, at this point, I can truly relay that a sonic transformation has taking place in this room!
I have yet to get new measurements ... but they are coming.

Also coming up will be the 'Hanging of the Clouds'.
I was reading in another thread, Brien discussing the hanging method, using 'buckles & eye
hooks, with threaded rods [I believe]. I'll be visiting our hardware stores to see what has
already been invented :wink:

So ... that 's it for the moment ...

Thanks for following along and comments critiques always needed.
Thank-you


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:58 am 
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Preparing to install the 3 hard backed clouds at the front of the room ... but I have
a question as to the spacing.
Attachment:
Cloud placement.jpg

In the design by Glenn.

The front 2 clouds are shown to be spaced 9-3/4" apart.

The cloud directly above the seating position is ~6" spaced from the pair in front.

With NO way to 'test' mount these [and having to drill holes into the ceiling] :|
I sure could use some confirmation that this is the layout to follow ?!?!?

Awaiting your guidance ... and THANKS !!!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:15 am 
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RJHollins wrote:
May he be busy creating someone another masterpiece ... and making a bunch $$$.


no more money i'm afraid, just the day job got very busy the past month with a lot of critical deadlines. a few more weeks and things should get sane again. :wink:

meanwhile... the panels on the walls - roughly 2' down from the ceiling which in an 8' high room means the center of a 4' absorber is about 4' - just a first guess really pending actual monitor placement. so a lower room with the absorber 2' down would be the 18-19" you mention. centering them on the acoustic center of the monitors works for me.

on the clouds, the multiple clouds lets' you have the front ones steeper and lower so there is a decent sized air space behind it (so later we can add more trapping if needed) and the second set covers any other ceiling reflections but also being angled provides some additional broadband effects. the remaining ones across the ceiling provide some absorption and control the floor ceiling reflections.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:15 am 
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Hi Glenn !!! So glad to hear from you ... and thank-you once again for the explanation with
the treatment.

Speaking of which ... time for a progress update !!!

Once the wall panels were mounted ... which had a dramatic effect [along with the corner
traps] in the acoustics of the room ... it was time to get these clouds installed.

Since all of my stud marking eventually got covered by layers of drywall, and then the
flooring ... it was necessary to verify the locations of the ceiling joists AND the, 'ever to be
avoided', original floor joists ! Should be simple :roll:

Well, armed with a new stud finder [which BTW can be somewhat embarrassing to ask for],
AND a decent magnet, I went scanning the ceiling to locate where the ceiling joists AND
the 2 schedules of drywall screws where ... and marked them with some blue tape.
Verifying against a few other measurements, we were cautiously optimistic :roll:
Since all the joists were 16" OC ... the plan was to insert 'toggle' bolts BETWEEN the original
floor joist and the ceiling joist. The eye bolt spacing, I figured, should also follow the 16" OC
spacing.
With that in mind, we began chalk lining the layout on the ceiling, both for the panel
spacing as Glenn designed, and then with the offsets as to where the actual bolts hit.

On the 2'x4' panel, we backed off 4" from the edge [short side] to give us a 16" spacing.
On the LONG side, I figured that 2" off the edge would give us enough support AND to be
able to get are fingers in there to hook the panels up.

Some pixs:

Here you can see the 'long legged' HD - 1/4" Snap toggles installed. The rating on these
guys is 265 lbs [in 1/2" drywall]. Since we have 1-1/4" drywall up there, these should be
plenty to handle these 70lb clouds [4 toggles per].
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000467.jpg

They don't look like much, but they were very easy to install, as you have to pull on the leg
to toggle FLAT the metal piece that the bolt goes into. Since we have insulation above
that is dampening down on this ceiling, I thought these would work better than trying to get
a 'butterfly' toggle to open without issue. Sure enough ... these all went in fine. AND ...
we did NOT hit any joists :yahoo:

closer peek
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000468.jpg

Once inserted and toggled ... you slide the retainer up into the ceiling ... then bend the legs
back and forth till they snap off. From there the eye bolt and washer were tightened.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000469.jpg


Next ... prepping the hardback clouds.

The 3/4" MDF and Plywood layers had earlier been 'LiquidNailed' and screwed together.
We then mounted the 4 eyebolts/washers/locknuts in place [plywood side facing the ceiling].
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000471.jpg

Adding 2 layers of 2" KNAUF rigid fiberglass [same from broadband and chunky corner traps]
positioned on the MDF side.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000472.jpg

Then set the open cage to hold the fiber attached to the wood panels.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000470.jpg

Using 1" drywall screws, the cage was secured to the boards.

To attach ... we used a combo of S-hooks and double chains for the eye-hooks.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000473.jpg

for the 'rear' attachment, I used J-hooks that I bent back to hook directly to the eyehooks
mounted on the panels.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000474.jpg

A view of the single panel above the mix position [from the side]
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000482.jpg

a view from the door area shows the 3 clouds mounted.
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000475.jpg

From behind the chair
Attachment:
PL_PID_1000000481.jpg

Tough to get decent pixs with my IPhone :|

Slope/angle distance ...

The 2 front panels are spaced 9 3/4" apart from each other.
At the 'leading edge', the space from the ceiling to the plywood is 6-1/4" giving an angle
of ~ 14*. The distance from top of monitor to the bottom edge of the cage is 14"

The 3rd panel [behind these] is spaced ~ 7" away.
It's 'leading edge' is 4-1/4" from the ceiling, giving an angle of ~ 6.25*

As mentioned, the addition, now, of these 3 clouds has brought a significant change to the
room acoustics. The sound stage is starting to come into focus
:mrgreen:

Last night I was experimenting with the projection depth of the monitors BEHIND the listeners
head. I was reading comments by Rod Gervais where he mentioned that he 'typically' uses
a 14" to 16" focus distant [behind] the listeners head. I'm still experimenting with these
distances. Right now I'm aimed at a 12" distance [using a 'marker' mic stand and a squaring
lazer beam to adjust the toe'ing angle. I'd be VERY interested to hear Glenn's views on
this aspect.

That's it for the moment ... oh ... we have an HVAC system in boxes in the garage 8)
pixs to come ...

I think, before going any further, that I should re-shoot the room and see where things are
at in REW. Try to get to that very soon!

Thanks everyone! Please let my know if you see issue or suggestions!

THANKS!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Tonite I had a chance to run an REW session to include the 3 hardbacked clouds.

Left monitor screenshot:
Attachment:
082911- left@mix pos with 3 hardback clouds.jpg

Right monitor screenshot:
Attachment:
082911- right@mix pos with 3 hardback clouds.jpg


I've also attached the .MDAT file from REW
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/300824 ... ouds_.mdat

Hope some sense can be made from this shoot ... I am still quite the novice at using REW.

Thank-you for your time and insights !!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:31 am 
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I tried downloading your mdat file to take a look, but REW tells me that the file is not the correct format. What version of REW did you save that with? I tried downloading the latest version of REW, and also downloading your mdat file several times, but it still works out the same: invalid format.

Anyway, what specific issues are you having with your room? The graphs you show don't seem all that bad, but I'd be very suspicious of the validity for those curves below about 50 Hz or so... I doubt your speakers go that low anyway, or your measurement mic, and even then data for the very low end is hard to measures accurately, and hard to a analyze.

I'd really like to take a look at that data, and see what it looks like.


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:02 pm 
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hmmm ... I'm going to check this out right now !!!

The REW version is: v5 build 2142 [Windows].

My file [here] loaded fine .... Maybe something wrong with the uploaded file ?!?!?

I'll DL it and see.

Thanks!

------------ edit ----
OK ... just dl'd the file from the link above.

It showed that it has NOT been downloaded before ... so I did.

Loaded fine here !

Let me know ... would much appreciate your observations !

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Quote:
The REW version is: v5 build 2142 [Windows].
Yup, same as my version.

Quote:
It showed that it has NOT been downloaded before ... so I did.
Figured it out! Stupid Firefox was downloading the LINK to the file, not the FILE itself! :twisted: Downloaded it manually... Seems to be OK now...

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:40 am 
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Here you can see the 'long legged' HD - 1/4" Snap toggles installed. The rating on these
guys is 265 lbs [in 1/2" drywall]. Since we have 1-1/4" drywall up there, these should be
plenty to handle these 70lb clouds [4 toggles per].

Should be fine. But just for future reference, that rating is performed on the downward thrust with the Snap toggle being placed on a vertical piece of sheathing.

The difference between the ability to "crush" the 1/2 sheathing in a vertical position versus the ability to pull it out of an overhead placement reduces these numbers.

Still, should be fine, but I do not know why people do not locate the over joists to attache to OR install a layer of OSB on the ceiling to eliminate this kinds of risky concerns.

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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.


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