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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:24 am 
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Location: Perth, WA, Australia
Hello, Brett here from Little Rascal Records, Perth - Western Australia.

First - many thanks and much respect to the pros and the various producers, musicians, bands and music freaks using this forum which is a wealth of knowledge. I have been researching for some time now, awesome resource here. I have also got my hands on a copy of Rob Gervais book Home Recording Studio, which i am also studying and reading and re-reading.

Ok - I am building a music studio in our back shed! I have attached sketchup file, a jpeg file, some photos of the shed and its dimensions and included details about location of our noisy neighbors. I have also started to create the design for the actual studio. I copied the small studio design John Sayers posted to this section of the forum to my original sketchup file - i can now copy and paste and resize components to fit my shed. (not sure if im getting ahead of myself here?)

Goals: Im keen to build using the room within a room, MSM method using double leaf walls. I intend to have just one room with a vocal booth section.
Question: Is there some treatment that can be done to the existing corrugated iron walls and ceiling, and roller door?

Specs: I have JBL 620B Bi-amplified Reference Monitors, plus nice Marantz and Akai HiFi speaker systems. I like to be able to switch between systems when mixing and mastering and was wondering if possible that all these can fit into the room of these dimensions? I would like to soffit the speaker systems!. The room will be mostly used for producing, mixing and mastering of electronic music and dubwise musics like; dub, reggae, ragga, drum'n'bass, jungle, hip hop from myself and sometimes other LRRecords producers. I also anticipate getting other jobs and collaborations on the go, so maybe even the odd folk, acoustic, solo, singer/songwriter, rnb, pop and shoegazing type artists.

The studios main equipment is: Roland electronic drum kit, Roland DAW, full DJ system, various samplers, drum machines and outboard hardware, computer music system with Alesis firewire mixer, massive bass rig, bass fx & synth, double bass, gtr & fx, Rode Mics for vocals. So as you can see from the type of music we produce there will be allot of bass action (sometimes produced using MIDI on computer and sampler, sometimes using electric bass gtr and 700W Peavy bass rig, sometimes double bass, mostly DirectInput, sometimes clean full and wholesome, sometimes totally synthed or totally fuzzed out, combos, sometimes tracked sometimes live) and some vocals from time to time.

The Back Shed: Is a typical Aussie corrugated iron backyard 'garage' on a decent concrete pad. Dimensions = L 6.15m W 4.63m H 2.83m. It has one strip of resilient channel on all walls in the middle, a big roller door, and a section of the corrugated roof is a skylight. Currently it has a power outlet on the north and south walls and two fluros on the apex of the roof for lighting. The actual walls of the shed do not sit on the concrete pad (but up against its edge?), therefore the concrete pad does not seem to be taking much weight? In the middle of the roof/structure is a A-frame type section of aluminium framing heading north<>south spanning the width of the room (better shown in sketchup), which may seem a challenge to build around when it comes time to do the ceiling? The one door is on the south wall closest to our house. I will have to have some sort HVAC system as it gets very hot here in summer (Perth is the hottest capitol city on average in the world, with many days over 35'C in summer). We have moderate winters with an average of about 8'C min to 19'C max in August, southern hemisphere winter. If i need to install HVAC anywhere on the actual building, it would be on the panel above the door.

Other Factors: Im looking for best isolation as possible. The neighbors have their out-door setting approx 3 to 5meters from the north-east corner of the shed where they regularly have evening meals, guests and family(including children) gatherings/piss-ups which usually get quite loud. So i do not want to disturb and intrude on their life and also do not want their life disturbing me (or being recorded) whilst trying to work and focus in the studio. I got to get me one of those Sound Level Meter tools asap.

I have some keen help. My sista'rascal Skahna is passionate bout beats! She DJs, MCs and is getting into producing, she has also been working for a established local AV company for some time and has good skills with hooking up cables, electronics, soundsystems, as well as access to many materials at discount prices. Shes hell keen to help out where-ever she can on this build, I can tell she is a good worker.
Also my friend next door is willing to help. He has experience with sound isolation builds in industrial applications, such as isolation of large motor generators in rooms at industrial plants/complexes. I rekon my ol'skool friend Ryan will also be keen to come help on working bee's!

I receive a pension and occasionally I do AV and Roadie work as well. I am currently estimating the budget to be $10 000, Money is prioritised for the studio build materials and acoustic treatment materials as I already have the gear from the past 10yrs recording, producing and playing music. (although any spare money to invest in some new studio gear would be great, I do need a new amplifier and some maintenance on my Novation ReMOTE 25SL). I must invest in a new Macbook computer, as I have hi-jacked the missus Toshiba Satellite with Vista OS for long time now, so would be good to have a inside house PC and studio Mac!

I have some prior experience with 'soundproofing' old band jam rooms. Looking back in hindsight they were all very amateur, and I wish I had known about this forum or even had the knowledge i had access to now and maybe some of these efforts in sound isolation would of been more effective and not such a painful ordeal in trying to 'soundproof' for the neighbours.

My most recent experience was a different story tho. It was building bass-traps in late 2009. This time i took the time to study and research all the info i could find online about building DIY bass-traps and it was also a shared project between myself and friends Adam & Sal. Myself and Adam did the research and material sourcing, and Adams dad Sal did the actual building of various sized rectangular bass-traps/acoustic panels for both mine and Adams studio spaces. Whilst Sal did these, I made two half cylinder and one full cylinder bass traps using polystyrene pipe covers filled with rockwool and covered with various layers of cardboard, carpet underlay and felt material. It was rewarding to actually hear the changes the different bass-traps made in both our home studios.

So I hope I have everything covered and I haven't rambled on too much. Keen to utilise the professional advice and maybe even design services of some of the top studio pros on this great forum.

regards,

Brett Caporn,
Little Rascal Records
www.lrrecords.com.au


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Last edited by LRRecords on Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:08 am 
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Sorry - i may have to resize those pics!! I thought i read somewhere that between 700-750 px wide is ok?
:|

edit: All cool the pics are under 700px wide and less than 155kb...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:37 am 
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any thoughts on how much weight this structure can actually support? even with the inside room, you will have to beef up those exterior walls with a couple layers of 16mm drywall. another option with less isolation might be to spray the inside with a heavy [rubberized] boat interior hull coating to dampen it, then build block walls internally and put your framed ceiling on those. it's effectively a single leaf and 1/2 but it might be enough. otherwise you might just contemplate taking it down and building a "replacement shed" which has the stronger frame to support the mass and so on. perhaps even a bit taller than the existing one to accommodate the large mowing tractor :wink: :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Thanks for your reply and advice Glenn. Correct, at present the structure is very basic and 'light weight', and on closer inspection the walls do actually sit on the edge of the concrete pad which is dropped down about 18mm on its edge. Possibly I could reinforce and strengthen the structure with vertical steel beams, maybe two on each wall? Then possibly a combo of what you suggested - rubberized boat interior and a single layer of 16mm drywall (would this be lighter and possibly cheaper than putting up a couple of layers of drywall?). I do recall my neighbour talking about a similar industrial rubberized material. Or do you think that once the walls are strengthened I can get away with more layers of drywall and that this is recommended? I dont think pulling down the shed and building a new one is an option (my father-in-law owns the property - i rekon i'm lucky enough to convince him that i'm building a studio 'in' the shed).
Once I do this, then I could build a single leaf interior 'room within a room' wall and put the ceiling on this - as per your suggestion. I was originally thinking of building a double leaf wall system for the 'room within a room' - do you think this may be a bit 'overkill' and compromise studio space and precious dollars? By build block walls, do you mean a single frame of timber studs with the drywall attached either side and insulation in-between? I am currently studying the chapter on walls in Rob Gervais book.
Once again, thanks for the reply and the knowledge you share here.
respect,

B.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:23 am 
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If it's an option to build a strong steel frame inside, then you might consider 2x layers on the outside of that, and isolation clips and hat channel inside with 2x or 3x drywall. I'd still dampen the metal but maybe a spray cellulose or other green compound would suffice. I'd frame each room separately so maximize isolation between each.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Yes, that is the idea - to build a 'room within a room' independent of the original steel shed structure.
You suggest to use steel as opposed to timber to build the frame of the 'room within a room', what are your reasons for this? Is it cheaper, easier to work with, stronger, lighter/heavier? Also, would you fill the inside of this wall/ceiling with insulation such as rockwool? How far from the shed wall is recommended to build the 'room within a room, frame?

cheers,
B.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:26 am 
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Have been studying acoustics, but also getting distracted with other things. Will be getting back into finishing studio design in sketch.up asap....gotta focus on this, get the design and construction aspects fully solid and understood.

will be back with updates and hopefully a few steps closer soon!!

update01: fired up google.sketchup today.! I made a good start when first learning and designing the existing building/layout, got back into it again today. Made little progress, but still I made progress, mostly getting used to the program functions again. Found gullfo searching on the components and models section, awesome>>> downloaded gullfo steel framing component, cheers >> now to design framing of the studio.
Will have to treat the existing corrugated shed walls with something, then go for a double leaf wall structure inside. Gotta get maximum sound isolation.
Also checked out http://gullfo.wordpress.com and http://www.runnel.com/, where I found the studio design checklist, which I will fill out. Checked out your excellent studio design articles too Glenn., cheers..

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:22 pm 
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the framing (my preference) would be wood (or reinforced concrete :wink:). however, to be truly effective your outer shell needs to be massive as well so structurally, the exterior walls are important to consider how to improve their ability to support the necessary mass.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:27 am 
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Ok - been mucking around with different designs. I found John Sayers Small Studio Sketchup file, which is great for checking out the different layers involved in the studio walls. I copied and pasted the design into my own sketchup design of my back shed. After adjusting the scale function I found that this design layout almost perfectly fits, almost!

Here is the link to my sketchup file at lrrecords.com.au:
http://www.lrrecords.com.au/Studio2011/LRR_studio_p2.skp
- As you can see the control room east wall doesn't quiet meet up flush to the sheds existing door! If I was to angle the wall a little more to meet flush with the door, would this cause problems to the overall acoustics of the control room? I've also realized that the speaker framing dimensions is a equation based on the width of the speaker front faces, so will I need to correct this dimension to my own speaker measurements - am I correct?

Also, you can see I have designed the double leaf wall inside the existing shed structure, using timber on the inner wall and steel on the outer. I would put drywall layer on both. I can then treat the existing corrugated shed walls with something like carpet underlay or maybe a spray cellulose or other green compound to dampen? Im trying to achieve maximum isolation and using the double leaf wall as compensation to the weak and low mass of the existing corrugated metal shed walls? I'm Wondering if I'm gonna blow the budget ($10K) doing it this way? Would your suggestion be a cheaper way to go? I'm thinking - Is your way with one leaf wall and 2x or 3x layer of drywall on either side give enough isolation compared to double leaf wall frames with only one layer of drywall?
Your suggestion: 'If it's an option to build a strong steel frame inside, then you might consider 2x layers on the outside of that, and isolation clips and hat channel inside with 2x or 3x drywall. I'd still dampen the metal but maybe a spray cellulose or other green compound would suffice. I'd frame each room separately so maximize isolation between each.'
Which is cheaper? (just thinkn about trying to save some $$$ to maybe get a new MacBook Pro in this 10K budget!?).

As you can see I have started adding in studio furniture and equipment (that trestle table is the actual dimensions of a similar table I will be using for my mixing, sampler and computer equipment, as well as the other table which is the dimensions of my current dj table). I am finding that there is not enough room to comfortably fit a DJ setup (which is integral to the LRRecords studio) in the control room, where the monitors are! Alternatively I can have a second set of speakers in the Live room and set up the dj desk in the Live room. I actually have 3X nice hifi speaker systems: Marantz, Bose, Akai - would be great to incorporate these into the studio as well. I was thinking the 4 Marantz LS100's also built in the soffits next to the JBL's studio monitors (is this possible?), the small Bose cubes as desk monitors with their subwoofer under the desk and the Akai SW-157's in the Live room.

Alternatively:
I have also been considering a one room studio design with the speaker soffits on the western side of the building facing east (which will give me more width to install two speaker systems?) and the couch bass trap at the other end (eastern wall - roller door face), with the DJ table in-between the mixing position and the couch, and the electronic drum kit and bass rig on north and south walls. I will post a design very soon. This seems to be a more practical set up, except for bleed/spill into microphones. I will have to research and design a small vocal booth or a acoustic wall for recording vocals and microphones, otherwise most production will be direct input with the electronic drum kit, bass/guitar, samplers, synths, MIDI and electronic music on computers - so maybe a larger room may be more comfortable, practicle and better acoustics?!?! I feel this is the better option for music making comfort and not feeling so cluttered and pokey.
Update 08/07/11: check this design out below:
Attachment:
LRR_studio_4a.jpg

Download sketch.up file here (right click 'save as'):http://www.lrrecords.com.au/Documents/LRR_studio_4.skp

cheers for your precious advice :)

ps - ...need to get the dbA meter asap and do the tests, neighbours were 'going off' the other night!, be interesting to see whom is the loudest? LRRecords deejaying bass, playing drums, bass and/or all of the above, or the neighbours being drunken yobs? otherwise hardly ever hear them besides the occasional gathering. Get more of an idea on how much isolation is needed (I'm thinking allot, hence the double leaf wall system)

pss - another big post for another big project.....


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Last edited by LRRecords on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Ok,, after much pondering. I have dedicated to going ahead and focussing on the one room studio design..
I have made initial floor plans and downloaded and made actual dimensions, components such as my couch, mix table, dj table, Roland drumkit, producers chair and the speaker soffit framing (which I will have to adjust to suit my JBL's and Akai SW-157's.)
Download sketchup file here:
http://www.lrrecords.com.au/Documents/LRR_studio_3.skp
Update 08/06/11:This is the new work in progress file:http://www.lrrecords.com.au/Documents/LRR_studio_4.skp
Keeping LRR_studio_3 as a original template file.


Of course more questions I have, of which I must seek answers!..
Im hoping that Im on the right track here with the double wall and two layers of different sized drywall on the outside framing. Would a drywall layer be needed on the inside of the inner walls?, or would treating with cloth, slat resonators, diffusion and acoustic traps suffice? Im hoping all this mass will not be too heavy for the concrete slab? How does one test/measure if your slab can take the estimated mass? How can we measure the mass of the walls we plan to construct?

alrighty... time to get into making this plan 3D in sketch.up
-) B


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Last edited by LRRecords on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:47 pm 
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Update: after re-reading Home Recording Studio - Build It Like The Pros, Im sure i am on the right track with the double wall framing design. Looks like im best (and most economical) to have a double leaf system with the drywall on both studs (inside and outside walls).
Still wondering what would be the best material to dampen the existing shed walls with?
Also the air gap between the walls >>> what is the recommended measurement for this? At the moment I have it at aprox. 96mm, too much?, "save some real estate dude">> is there a recommended minimum?

Also been checking out the manuals at the Aussie gyprock (drywall) website:
http://www.gyprock.com.au/resources/fil ... uides.aspx

They seem to go for the use of Resilient mounts and furring channel on their wall system, whereas Rob says it is not necessary when doing double framed/double leaf wall systems.

charge on :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:34 pm 
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in this case you may be better served with a rectangular isolation wall setup to get the isolation you need, then build the treatment walls - angled slats, soffits, bass traps etc within that room. this way you maximize the amount of space available within the room (important for small rooms) and the construction is simpler as well. do you need an isolation ceiling as well?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:10 am 
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gullfo wrote:
in this case you may be better served with a rectangular isolation wall setup to get the isolation you need, then build the treatment walls

Thanks Glenn.!! So from what you are saying, - I am on the right track here? You are basically saying here: a double framed wall system. Iso wall, airgap, then treatment walls. (Mass Spring Mass)

So really what I'm after (according to your advice too) is like in my latest design:
Existing wall (dampen with rigid insulation),
Air Gap
ISO wall - (2X15mm drywall, 90mm studs, fill with R2.0 insulation)
Air Gap
Treatment Wall - (Barrier Board(?), 90mm studs, fill with R2.0 insulation) and/or (not sure how to finish the treatment walls? Do I still put up drywall layer, or something like Barrier Board, then acoustic treatments like cloth and slats - or will just cloth, angled slats and bass traps suffice)
Acoustic treatment - slat resonators, bass traps, etc..

gullfo wrote:
as well. do you need an isolation ceiling as well?

Yes!! and its only 2.28m high to the bottom of the steel frame in the middle of the room! Maybe I can work around this?

thankful for your input :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:50 am 
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the treatment walls can support a variety: slats, cloth absorption, polys, membranes, perforations, etc. no drywall or other significant (and sealed) mass or you start to get into significant 3rd leaf effects.

on the ceiling - it will be tricky since it is low. but if isolation is a primary concern it will have to be done...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:23 am 
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Thanks Glenn!

Have made some progress on the design. Still need to draw in the back wall (couch wall) Bass Traps, the Peavey Bass Rig and the acoustic door/s. Not to mention ceiling design and the HVAC system - have been researching both.. Looked at the Origin Reverse Cycle split system tonight.

Also got to suss the electrical situation out there...I know this so far: Mains power, 2 power points on two adjacent walls (north/south), with 4 power plugs/outlets, looks like on the same circuit, including two large fluros lights on the roof with two tubes each. All fed to the shed via the laundry at roof height in a pvc tube/pipe. Will look into this more.

Still trying to figure out the best material to dampen the existing corrugated steel walls with? Anyone got any suggestions? I have made a rigid insulation at about 30mm in my sketchup design, >> then airgap, 2Xdrywall, Isolation wall framing, airgap, treatment walls framing, cloth, slats, etc..

Have also tightened up my gaps between walls to gain some extra real estate. And marked the position for the acoustic curtain, which I plan to hang down from the ceiling for a temporary vocal recording isolation zone and roll/fold up and store away on ceiling when not using.

Question: What acoustic treatment for the back wall behind and above the couch? So far I have downloaded an excellent diffussor from gulffos components, or should I be going for a more bass trap style panel?

Update 08/06/11: spent time today tightening up the soffits and 30degree slot resonator walls, also downloaded a nice double bass, put in framing for bass trap near the door and played around with the acoustic panels on the walls behind and opposite the drum kit. >>> Next: Bass Rig and its Bass Trap, and no doubt more...
Attachment:
LRR_studio_4a.jpg

Attachment:
LRR_studio_4f.jpg


Check out my post on the soffit design progress here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16096
Attachment:
LRR_studio_4e.jpg


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