John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Thanks for taking the time to read my (first) post on this forum.

After much searching of relevant info scattered across the net I happended to stumble across this site and haven't really left it since! It really is a great site so thanks in advance to John and the good members of this site for making it the great resource which it is

Ok I've read forum rules, photos etc so hopefully I comply with all of those I'll try to keep my post as concise as possible and supply as much info as I have to hand so far.

Objective: build a home studio in a brick shed in the backyard of a house I just bought. I'm a guitarist so it will be used for rehearsing/jamming with another guitarist mainly as well as some basic recording/tracking/mixing (hobby). No acoustic drums or live band recording. Some vox perhaps every so often. Music I play/record/listen to is mainly hard rock/metal but I don't plan on playing it deafening/mega loud volumes (I plan on doing this for a few more years yet!). Due to the size, single room only. May build an amp box/riser for isolation that.

Main Challenges:

It is right next to a train line! (Approx 20m away) - single line, trains every 10 mins
It is about 100m from a level crossing so the alarm for the barriers to go down is quite audible
Neighbours dog next door has a decent bark on it
I need to split the shed in "half" (the other half is for storage) so the room available is relatively quite small

Constraints:

Studio dimensions: 3.70m long X 2.46m wide X 1.94m high (total length of shed is 7.17m)
Budget: £4K approx
Distance to house: 15-20m (first baby due any day!)
Distance to neighbours - 20m approx, terraces both sides, both have quite good (and audible) singers in the household

Existing structural features:

Single skin brick exterior (some gaps, brick quality not great, overall build quality average at best)
2 fixed windows (1 glass left, 1 perspex right)
Concrete floor
Exposed joist ceiling
Signs that damp proofing exists and no signs of water/rain leakage/damp issues
Tar/felt roof - slanted (i've not quite shown this in the sketchup - rear wall is 2.02m high against front wall 1.94m)
Single airbrick - front wall (may use this for inlet acoustic vent)
Hollow main door

Improvements/prep work to date

New fuse box installed - 5 circuits free
New uPVC "silent" glass window ordered

Materials to hand:

Plenty of 2 X 4 studs
Dozen or so rubber carpet tiles (20" square approx)

Design aspects/considerations:
Isolation - aiming for room in room (MAM/MSM) but am very concerned about losing room size! Concrete floor is good but am concerned about low freq vibration/noise from train line. Not sure what to do with floor (rubber) or floating floor but again concerned about room size. Rubber floor I've read will kill acoustics but I read a post John wrote saying that I need as much absorbtion as possible in a small room. Not sure whether to use clouds for ceiling.
Need to build new partition wall to split shed. Staggered stud approach with new solid core door and seals. Will consider second solid core door for exterior with seals if required after initial build.
Overall I'm doubtful about approach for ceiling/floor given room size? I don't aim to play that loud at all so am more concerned about sound coming in than out. There is flexibility in the iso design given what I'm doing but don't want to box myself into a room I can't use!
A few queries also:
Is the new inner leaf wall anchored directly into the concrete floor?
I've seen variations of the inner leaf design but not sure which one to use? (assuming this is appropriate given my concerns re size?)
Brick-> Air gap->Drywall->Stud wall inner leaf->Insulation->Cloth
Brick-> Air gap->Stud wall inner leaf->RC->Insulation->RC->Drywall
Is there any different to having the drywall on either side?

HVAC - plan for one centrifugal extraction fan with ducting in new partition wall with outlet via rear brick wall. Acoustic vent to be installed where airbrick is now in front wall. Both with home made baffles. Fan to be speed controlled.

Electrics - planning seperate circuits for (1) fan (2) lights (3) amps (4) computer/outboard gear. All star grounded.

Window - new uPVC double glazing silent glass to be installed soon. Single pane can be opened for fresh air. I plan to install secondary glazing on the new inner leaf wall which can also open to access exterior window (air through both). This is to allow this room to be used for other stuff when not actually playing so I can enjoy the garden and fresh air at other times. I realise this is somewhat of a compromise but I'm happy with this given I compensate it to a degree in the design.

Mixing/recording desk location - have not yet shown this on my diagrams however I was originally aiming to place desk at the east facing wall as would be expected in this rectangle, however as the roof is slightly slanted I read a post stating that it would be better on the front wall due to better acoustics (i.e the higher rear wall behind me). Good aestheticallly as I would be facing the window?

Acoustic treatment - do I need bass traps? I've read small rooms need a fair amount of acoustic treatment to avoid being boomy? I'm considering soffit mounting my Wharfedale near field speakers but from other designs of this size, small studios like this tend to recommend to use heavy stands behind the desk instead?

Basic studio dimensions (note I'm using the right hand side of the shed with the larger window)


Sketchup (very basic!)


Photo of shed


I have a sketch pad (a paper one!) where I've written down all the interior dimensions (windows, ceiling joists etc). I could convert this all to sketchup but it's taking me some time to come up to speed with the tool (i'll learn as I go) but was keen on getting feedback early in the design process.

Sincerely appreciate any tips/advice on the overall approach. I don't want to launch myself into this until I've got a good understanding of what's actually required and the amount of work involved (I plan to do the building work myself and a mate to help where needed). Also realise it's next to a train line so wondering if this is actually all worth it!

Hi Axeman, and Welcome!

It looks like you have identified the issues pretty well, so I'll just try to fill in some of the details for you.

That can probably be improved considerably with a good coat of plaster (stucco, render, etc.) That will fill the gaps, add mass, and provide a good seal.

The perspex is not much use, acoustically. Mass is too low.

Good!

Aslo good!

That can be replaced easily.

I'm not sure what "uPVC silent glass" is. Do you have a link or data sheet? If it is thick laminated glass, that should be fine. If not... maybe.

Probably not much use, but you'd need to know what type of rubber, or at least be able to determine the characteristics, to see if it is any use. Good types for use in studios are: Sorbothane, EPDM, and neoprene. But being carpet, it probably is not any of these. Most types of carpet have no use at all in studios.

Then you'll need to use materials with very high mass for your inner leaf, and the parts of the outer leaf that don't have enough yet.

Your ceiling is already VERY low: not enough space for a proper floating floor, or any other type of floor. I think your options are limited to leaving it as it ism and making the best use you can. True floating floors are very expensive to do properly, and would eat up a large chunk of your budget. I'm not sure if you have seen this thread, but if not it should help get your head around some of the issues:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

If you want all the technical details on how floating floors work, then this is an interesting bedtime read ( ) :

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/p ... /ir802.pdf

... and do very little (if anything) for isolation.

Yes, but rubber carpet is not what John was talking about there!

Absolutely, definitely, and without any doubt. It is a small room, and with a concrete floor you will need a "soft" ceiling. Very absorbent. Something like 4" to 6" of fiberglass or mineral wool. Perhaps not covering the entire ceiling, and thicker in some places (perimeter) than others (center). Maybe.

Any chance you could take the roof off, add a few more courses of brick to the walls, and put a new roof on?

That will, indeed, be your largest problem, and mostly it will be the trains. Having tens of thousands of tons of mass rumbling around on the ground just 20 meters away is a major issue. It isn't even the sound that is the problem, but rather the vibration in the ground itself. The only real solution to that, is to float the entire building, but that is prohibitively expensive.

I guess the real question is: how bad is the problem? When trains come past, can you live with the rumbling and other low frequency sounds? How intense is that? It would be good to put numbers on the problem by measuring it with a sound level meter, and trying to see where the problematic frequencies are with a spectrum analyzer.
Most definitely: Especially considering the amount of vibration that will be there from the nearby trains.

That is usually known as an "inside-out" wall here on the forum. It is one good way of doing things.

The RC would only be needed if the stud framing were attached to the outer brick walls, or to the ceiling. If it is only attached to the floor an nothing else (the way it should always be), then you do not need the RC. And you NEVER need it twice! I guess the first one of those in your sequence was a mistake?

From the point of view of isolation, no. No difference. What matters is that you have your outer leaf (the brick wall) and your inner leaf (the drywall) isolated from each other with a sufficiently large air gap, which is filled with insulation. It does not matter which side of that drywall you have the stud framing on. You can have it on the inside, or the outside. The decision on which side to have the framing is more of a practical one, not so much an acoustical one.

That should work for the "V" part of "HVAC", but what about the "H" and "AC" parts?

You mean "double pane" is in two layers of glass made together with a thin air gap between them? That is not much use for isolation of a studio. Works fine for mid and high frequencies, but not for lows. I would not use that.

Operable windows are not recommendable for studios. The issue is seals: if it opens and closes, then getting a good seal is really hard. Also, opening a window in an air-tight room will not ventilate it: air needs a reason to move, so unless you increase or decrease the pressure inside the room, air will not move in or out. And even if you can do that, you would also need a second window somewhere, so that the air can move through the room.

I don't see that as a viable plan at all, for the same reason as above: operable windows have issues with seals. You won't be able to get good isolation if you don't have good seals.

I'm not sure how you can compensate for lack of seal on your leaves! If there is no good seal, then there s no good seal! The only way to compesnate for that is to fix the poor seal.

You don't show any compass directions on there, so it isn't clear which one is the "east facing wall".

Ditto regarding which one is the "front" wall. Maybe you could put a couple of labels on your SKP, to show which is which?

Oh yesss sir!! Absolutely, unequivocally, and without the slightest doubt.

Exactly, but it isn't just an issue of being "boomy". It is also the issue of taming the modal behavior of the room. It is a very small room, so it will have lots of modal issues that need taming.

Good idea!

You can, but you'd suffer SBIR and all the other artifacts. It all depends on how far you want to go with this. The room is not big enough to allow you get the speakers far enough away form the front wall to avoid the worst artifacts, so you'd need to put them up tight against the front wall, and compensate with EQ adjustments. What model of Wharfedales do you have?

Yes, it does take a while, doesn't it?! It's a great tool, but some of their concepts and methods are a bit quirky, and it ain0't easy to get your head around that. But once it "clicks", then you start realizing what a powerful tool it really is. It's worth the effort!

There's a saying around here about living with what you've got, and doing the best you can with it. Put it this way: if your choices are "1) Not fantastic but also not too bad studio in my own back yard" and "2) No studio at all", then which one is better?

You already know that there are serious limitations with the size of the room, and the railway line so close at hand, so you understand that this won't exactly turn out like Abbey road, but it will be YOURS, and it will be available 24/7, and you will be able to do whatever you want in there, whenever you want, so that in itself is a pretty big incentive. It won't be perfect by any means, but it can be usable, within the limitations imposed by the building itself, and the surroundings.

My US$ 0.02


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Hey Stuart,

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly with your detailed response! Greatly appreciated.

I've done a little more research and updates to my sketches in response.

Walls
I plan to visit the hardware store and stock up on some plaster to seal and add mass to the interior brickwork

Floor
Obtaining quotes for concrete polishing as it looks like a dog's breakfast at the moment

New Window
It is a uPVC Casement double glazed window with 10mm "silent" glass (it has been used on houses near London Heathrow airport). The unit is 10mm glass->Argon filled airgap->6.4mm glass with estimated dB reduction of 39dB.
Technical specs I obtained from the supplier here:


HVAC
I plan on getting a small radiator heater for winter. Aircon I anticipate won't be required given London weather most of the year. I plan on using the ventilation only at this stage. I can always revisit this later if I have to re-using the in/out vents that I'll use.

Recording desk position
Have added compass north to the sketch. My initial thinking was to place the desk on the north facing wall. My concern was the (slight) slant of the ceiling but I'm not sure if this is sufficient to warrant placing the desk on the east facing wall instead (below the window)?

Soffit mounting
I have a pair Wharfedale Diamond IV's Yes there old. There also rear ported so I guess that means there out for soffit mounts. Most studios seem to have near field speakers on desk + soffit mounted speakers in the walls but with a room this small do I really need both? That is, if I need to invest cash for new speakers could I use soffit mounts as near field speakers too? Or is that not quite right and I need to get both? Possibly using the Wharfedale's as near field for example? Given near fields are used 90% of the time (?) then it is possible for me to add Soffit mounts later or do I need to build this into the design up front?

Wall Framing
I've added this into the sketch as a first draft . One thing I'm not quite sure on is the new partition wall design. I've designed at the moment not touch the brick work so as to not compromise the MAM design. Do I actually need a second layer of drywall that sits on the exterior of the partition stud frame which extends right up to the brickwork?

The trains
The noise/vibration does not bother me that much. I've spent quite a bit of time in that shed as I've been checking it out. The noise is worse at peak hour (to/from London) due to the full carraige weight. Luckily I won't be using the room then! At other times it isn't so bad. I plan to get a sound meter and do some analysis of this which I'll be able to post. Have been checking out some spectrum analyser software too.

Thanks Jason

Update sketchup export attached...

Hi,
Congratulations for putting some thought into placing your house correctly. Most people find the house they want and fit it on the block of land rather than designing the house for the block of land.
Check out the government site on their take on things. Have to find the link.
Here are my take on things:
Firstly find out where your prevailing winds are coming from, so you can place your windows correctly. Keep your house narrow for the cross breezes.
I like the master bedroom facing east as I like to wake up when the sun comes up; the sun usually doesn’t hang around for too long.
The house should be narrow on the western side with plenty of wall insulation and small windows to keep the hot sun away however I am building a house myself and have decided to put two large sliding doors in the western side of the house to harvest the western sun in winter. This means I have to put in extra sun protection solutions for summer.
I see many houses that have verandas’ on the northern side of the house; what a waste of winter sun access.
Wet areas are supposed to go to the south side of the house because no sun enters that part of the house
The rooms you spend most of the time in should face north.
If your design is two storeys you should be able to face all bedrooms and main living areas north; it would be difficult to do that with a single storey unless you have lots of land available.

"House"??? What "house" are you talking about? If you think he is building a HOUSE, then you are really, really confused!

First time I ever heard of a studio with a "master bedroom" in it! Nice concept, though...

Maybe you got the wrong forum? Or maybe you are just another spammer? Either way, you are in the wrong place.

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Well given the amount of time I plan to spend building the thing maybe that's not such a bad idea!

Stuart - latest update, new window installed, now looking to render internal brickwork.

One question has been troubling me though. For the partition wall I assume that needs two leafs? One that is the inner leaf which connects to the rest of the new stud wall inner leaf. The outer leaf being a separate stud frame which connect directly to both brick walls and has a separate layer of plasterboard?
I think this is right from the reading I've done but wanted to double check. I only plan to have one solid core door however, I assume this is framed against the outer leaf?

I've not shown this in my latest sketchup above yet however.

Thanks Jason

There won't be any partition wall as such: just build each room as you show in the diagrams above, and the "partition wall" between them will appear by magic! Each of your two rooms is built as a separate stand-alone "box", consisting of four walls and a ceiling. Both of them are next to each other, inside the existing "shell" of the building, but not touching the shell, and not touching each other. That's all you need. The partition wall between them is now the two-leaf system formed by the walls of each of the rooms. Nothing more required.

sketch out the other room as outlined above, and post it here to double check.

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.