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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:30 am 
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Hello all, i've been reading up on the existing advice and designs on these forums and was happy to go ahead and use this advice to construct my own studio untill i came up against a construction problem which i'm hoping you could help me with.

I'm trying to build a studio just for making eleectronic music so a control room essentially. I will be playing loud occasionally but the studio space is on the top floor of a mill with similar studio spaces around it so it shouldnt be a problem.

Ive attempted a sketch of my studio in its present state using sketchup but please excuse my rudimentary skills.

Attachment:
studio-layout-plan_1.jpg


As you can see in the sketch there are 2 walls that come out part way half way down the room. When i agreed to take the space i was told these walls would be completely removed but as they are supporting the ceiling what you see in the sketch is as far back as they can go.

On the right of the image is a brick wall and my intention is to put another drywall in front of this and insulate with rock wool. I then intended to construct 2 corner walls at a 60 degree angle with the possibility of flush mounting speakers in them and bulding bass traps in the bottom. I was then going to bring the side walls in at a 12 degree angle between the sides of the room and these corner walls.

For the rear of the room I imagine i will just build broadband traps possibly at an angle.

My Question is how do i deal with these part walls in the middle of the room? should i just continue with my previous plan and ignore them? or can i cut the corners out by putting another drywall board from the edge of the part walls on an angle to meet the side walls so that it cuts out the frequency trap? Or my third option, should i just lose alot of room space and bring the side walls in to meet the edge of the part wall so that the whole length of the side wall is flush? i realise i will lose alot of space doing this but its quite a wide room to begin with.

Any advice on this is massively appreciated :) Thanks very much.

Matt


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:09 pm 
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Just an update. I've managed to figure out a way to invest in some larger beams and therefore remove the walls completely.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:02 pm 
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Hi Matt, and welcome to the forum! :)

Quote:
I've managed to figure out a way to invest in some larger beams and therefore remove the walls completely.
That's actually what I was going to suggest! There's no easy way to incorporate those "kinks" into a control room, either acoustically or visually. It is possible to build a room like that, but it won't be as good as it will be without the obstructions.

The other issue is that you say those walls are supporting the ceiling, yet normally when renovating a room for use as an isolated studio, one first removes the ceiling, since it will be replaced with a properly isolated ceiling that is supported only on the new inner-leaf. In which case you could take out that old ceiling, and the walls that support it, without needing any beams at all. However, that assumes that it really is just the ceiling that they are supporting, and not also the roof above, or the floor of the next level up. Are you sure it is only the ceiling that they support?


Quote:
On the right of the image is a brick wall and my intention is to put another drywall in front of this and insulate with rock wool.
Right, but that's only one of the five sides of the room. Acoustic isolation needs to be done on all sides of the room, not just on one side. The correct method for isolating a studio is to build a "room in a room", using the fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM method. That is by far the least expensive and most effective way of doing it. Anything else will either cost you more, or will not isolate well. Or both...

Quote:
I then intended to construct 2 corner walls at a 60 degree angle with the possibility of flush mounting speakers in them and bulding bass traps in the bottom.
Flush mounting your speakers as an excellent idea, and is in fact probably the best and most useful thing you can do to your entire room, since it eliminates many of the artifacts that plague rooms where the speakers are mounted within the room. So that's fantastic.

However, you do not flush mount (soffit mount) by just building walls across the corners and sticking the speakers in them. It's a bit more complicated than that. If you take a look at the forum you'll find many, many examples of how to do it properly, done by people who have done it successfully. I'd suggest you take a look at a few of those, then design your soffit-mount strategy and post the design here so we can check it for you.

Quote:
I was then going to bring the side walls in at a 12 degree angle between the sides of the room and these corner walls.
It sounds like you are aiming for an RFZ design for your control room, but 12° likely will not be enough to accomplish that. The exact angle that you need to create a true RFZ depends on each specific room: all rooms are different. But I normally find that I need a lot more than 12°. Maybe you are confusing that angle with the amount of splay needed across a room to eliminate flutter echo? That's a different thing.

Quote:
For the rear of the room I imagine i will just build broadband traps possibly at an angle.
For RFZ, the rear corners of the room normally have very large, deep bass traps, often of the "superchunk" style, and the rest of the rear wall is thick absorption at the very least, or if you have enough space, then very deep hangers hidden behind a fake fabric "wall" are even better.


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:29 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
Hi Matt, and welcome to the forum! :)



Thank you its a great forum!

Quote:
That's actually what I was going to suggest! There's no easy way to incorporate those "kinks" into a control room, either acoustically or visually. It is possible to build a room like that, but it won't be as good as it will be without the obstructions.


Great, the walls are gone now and its a nice symmetrical box apart from the beam in the middle of the room that protrudes down from the ceiling by about 20cms

Quote:
The other issue is that you say those walls are supporting the ceiling, yet normally when renovating a room for use as an isolated studio, one first removes the ceiling, since it will be replaced with a properly isolated ceiling that is supported only on the new inner-leaf. In which case you could take out that old ceiling, and the walls that support it, without needing any beams at all. However, that assumes that it really is just the ceiling that they are supporting, and not also the roof above, or the floor of the next level up. Are you sure it is only the ceiling that they support?


It is only the ceiling that they were supporting, the room is built inside the top level of a warehouse along with several other rooms so above the ceiling is a big empty space that goes up to the roof of the warehouse/mill

Quote:
Right, but that's only one of the five sides of the room. Acoustic isolation needs to be done on all sides of the room, not just on one side. The correct method for isolating a studio is to build a "room in a room", using the fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM method. That is by far the least expensive and most effective way of doing it. Anything else will either cost you more, or will not isolate well. Or both...


unfortunately the space is rented off the guy that owns the top floor of this mill. Hes quite helpful and has put another wall in for me opposite the brick wall to help block sound from the studio next door. Full isolation is not going to be possible financially as i dont really want to invest too much into a space that i may have to leave at some point. So full isolation is out of the question. i can get materials from time to time so may be able to extra soundproof the remaining 2 walls and ceiling at some point but i will be going forward with just one layer of isolation at this point. Despite this i hope you can still help me with getting the best out of the space with these limitations :)

Quote:
Flush mounting your speakers as an excellent idea, and is in fact probably the best and most useful thing you can do to your entire room, since it eliminates many of the artifacts that plague rooms where the speakers are mounted within the room. So that's fantastic.

However, you do not flush mount (soffit mount) by just building walls across the corners and sticking the speakers in them. It's a bit more complicated than that. If you take a look at the forum you'll find many, many examples of how to do it properly, done by people who have done it successfully. I'd suggest you take a look at a few of those, then design your soffit-mount strategy and post the design here so we can check it for you.


Thats great to hear i've never attempted anything like this before but i'm quite handy so i'm looking forward to giving it a go this week hopefully. I've read up quite a bit on it and the clearest design i've seen so far is this image

Attachment:
speakerbox.jpg


One thing i'm unsure about is how to figure out the 60° angle from the listening point i assume i needa big protractor or something?

Quote:
Quote:
I was then going to bring the side walls in at a 12 degree angle between the sides of the room and these corner walls.
It sounds like you are aiming for an RFZ design for your control room, but 12° likely will not be enough to accomplish that. The exact angle that you need to create a true RFZ depends on each specific room: all rooms are different. But I normally find that I need a lot more than 12°. Maybe you are confusing that angle with the amount of splay needed across a room to eliminate flutter echo? That's a different thing.


Hmm ok, i'd just seen designs incorporating soffit mounting that had the walls splayed off them at 12° so was blindly going to follow this i'm not too sure what flutter echo is exactly. Would you suggest that i soffit mount the speakers first and then run some tests or can i work this out in relation to the room dimensions?


Quote:
Quote:
For the rear of the room I imagine i will just build broadband traps possibly at an angle.
For RFZ, the rear corners of the room normally have very large, deep bass traps, often of the "superchunk" style, and the rest of the rear wall is thick absorption at the very least, or if you have enough space, then very deep hangers hidden behind a fake fabric "wall" are even better.


The room is fairly deep at 6 meteres but i would like to get a sofa in there a fridge and an armchair also along one wall i intend to put some tables with decks on for recording mixes. I thought i would have ample room but had not considered going too deep with the bass traps. I'll have a look at some superchank bass trap ideas as deep hangers may take up to much room. In respect to bass traps when i'm working out the right listening spot i've read its 40% of the room depth. Now is the room depth considered front wall to back wall or for example the front wall to the edge of the bass traps that protrude from the back wall?



Thanks for your help as always! Massively appreciated :D

Cheers,

Matt


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:38 am 
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Heres a few pics of the place, the walls are gone but its still very much a shell, I will be putting an insulated dryboard wall infront of the brick wall over the next couple of days. Then I'll be starting on the soffits

Attachment:
FullSizeRender.jpg


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Okay, update:

I've put in a wall in front of the brick wall to help with acoustics and soundproofing.

Attachment:
FullSizeRender (11).jpg

Attachment:
image1.JPG

Attachment:
image2.JPG


As my room shares the same concrete floor as a few other studios and a couple of very loud bands i'm getting a lot of noise travelling through the floor. I'm going to attempt a floating floor to rectify this.

The landlord has previously achieved this in another room using old pallets on rubber pucks and stuffed with insulation so i'm going to give this a go. I realise this isn't as ideal as studs but for my budget i think it could be a good alternative (i've read up on calculating the estimated weight etc so going to give this a go and get as close as possible).

1/2" neoprene sheets aren't the cheapest so i'm hoping since the floor wont be supporting any walls etc i'll be able to space the pucks quite sparingly.

Looking forward i've posted in the speaker section about which speakers i'd be best to soffit mount: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19782&p=135215#p135215


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:28 am 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
As my room shares the same concrete floor as a few other studios and a couple of very loud bands i'm getting a lot of noise travelling through the floor. I'm going to attempt a floating floor to rectify this.
:shock: :ahh: Are you SURE you want to do that? You might want to read this before you embark on such a huge, complicated, expensive endevour... :

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

Also, it looks like your room is already built as a proper "room within a room", so you don't need to build any more in there! If you did, you'd actually make the low frequency isolation WORSE, not better, as you'd be creating 3-leaf systems. If you want to get two rooms out of that place, then the logical thing to do is to split it in two right where the beam is: build a single-leaf wall on each side of the beam, then take out the beam and cut the ceilings and walls at that point. Bingo! Two rooms, properly isolated.

You should also break the connection between your room and the brick wall, now that you built a new wall there. If you built the wall correctly then it is already supporting the ceiling, so you should be able to just cut the mechanical ties where the existing walls and the ceiling were attached to the brick wall.

Quote:
The landlord has previously achieved this in another room using old pallets on rubber pucks and stuffed with insulation so i'm going to give this a go.
Well, he mioght THINK he did something useful like that, but I can assure you that he actually did not. Read though that tread I linked to above, to understand why. There's nowhere near enough mass in that to make it float. all he really achieved was to build a drum: in effect, the floor became resonant system that absolutely and without any doubt messed up both the acoustics and the isolation of that room.

Quote:
so i'm going to give this a go.
That would be a bad idea! There are much better ways of dealing with isolation issues. Once that are based on the science of acoustics, not what the guesses of a landlord... :)

Quote:
(i've read up on calculating the estimated weight etc so going to give this a go and get as close as possible).
Did you also read up on how to calculate the resilience, deflection and MSM resonant frequency? What frequency will you tune your system too? What is the resilience of the rubber pucks you mentioned? How much deflection would you need on those in order to get the correct resilience? How thick would they have to be to get the correct frequency? Did you also consider the coupling of the air resonance, which is also an MSM system? With a floated floor you have to consider both springs: the pucks and the air. They are both resilient, yet have very, very different characteristics. Did you figure out both? What are the two resonant frequencies that you calculated, and how do they compare to the lowest frequency that you need to isolate? Is the higher of the two at least 1.414 times lower? How did you calculate the locations of the pucks? Did you allow for the fact that a floor is an uneven planar load, with concentrated loads in some places (point loads) and widely spread loads in other places? Did you place extra pucks at the highest load areas, and fewer at the lowest load areas, by carefully calculating the area, mass, loads and deflections on each puck? Did you allow for the fact that the loads will change as people and equipment enter and leave the room, and move around the room? Don't forget that if you got the math for even one single puck wrong, and it bottoms out or tops out, then the entire floor stops floating and it becomes a coupled system, with no isolation.... Floating a floor in real life is a lot harder than it looks on a YouTube video.


Quote:
1/2" neoprene sheets aren't the cheapest so i'm hoping since the floor wont be supporting any walls etc i'll be able to space the pucks quite sparingly.
How do you know that you need 1/2" neoprene? Are you sure that is the correct thickness to get the resonant frequency that you need? Will just 1/2" give you enough deflection for the loading at each point? What type of neoprene? What resilience? Are you sure it really is Neoprene, which is a brand name, or is it just some other type of cholorprene or chlorobutadiene rubber? What type of neoprene is it (G, W or T)? What Shore hardness (durometer), and on which scale? You can't calculate how to space the pucks unless you know the characteristics of the exact type of rubber you are using. What is the shape factor of the pucks you are using?

You might want to read this, to get a better handle on the math: http://www.earsc.com/HOME/engineering/T ... asp?SID=61

Floating a wall, floor or anything else is nowhere near as simple as it sounds. Getting it wrong is very, very easy, and getting it right by sheer luck and guessing is extremely unlikely.

If you really do need to isolate your floor in some way, I'd suggest a "drum riser" type floor is a lit easier and cheaper to do, and can be quite effective. It might even be worth your while to build a few drum riser platforms and give them away for free to those noisy bands around you: much cheaper than trying to float your own floor, and it would do wonders for improving your social standing among your new neighbors!

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:39 pm 
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Thanks for the advice Stuart its really appreciated.

Re: Floating the floor.

I read all the threads in the 'useful threads' section before i attempted it, unfortunately i'd already finished it before reading your warnings. In hindsight maybe it was a mistake, however it has definitely helped with the isolation, its also made a much neater job of hiding cables etc. My only fear is that it will resonate in a detrimental way, or the the sacrifice in height of the room will now create problems with nulls. But its done now so we'll see i guess.

I also raised the rear of the floor even further with a platform for the couch etc which will be carpeted in contrast to the laminate flooring in the rest of the room.

Here are some pics:

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The holes cut into the sides are for speakers that i am going to sink into the floor that will point up to the position of where my decks and mixer will be. This is a separate thing completely to the monitoring position and speakers at the other end of the room and is purely for Djing.

Now from here i was going to splay the walls following a design something like these:

Attachment:
11020936_10152789236903460_1405522417_n.jpg

Attachment:
10952457_10152789236953460_2115418845_n.jpg


but you suggested i'd need a lot more than 12 degrees and from reading further on it it seems that my room may be to small for this to be beneficial? would you agree?
To be honest not splaying the walls would save a lot of time and money and would leave me with more space for analogue gear/racks etc

So before i proceed with building soffits i think it would be wise to build the rear super chunks so i can tweak my LP before calculating the soffit position.

I intend to go 19 inch deep floor to ceiling rock wool in the corners tapering down to 10 inch and running across the rear wall at 10 inch thickness before tapering back up to 19 inch at the other corner. Would this be thick enough do you think? i hope so because at 19 inch it comes slightly across the door way but enough to live with.

Should i be worried that my room is becoming to square if i implement the super chunks at the rear?

The new dimensions (in feet) with the floor in before adding the super chunks are: depth 18.53' width 11.9' height 7.3'

Thanks again for your help.

Matt


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