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 Post subject: Small Drum Practice Room
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:49 am 
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So my friend Darren needs a room where he can practice and film some tutorial type videos without having the cops come knock on his door. Of course, I offered to help him since he has been and will be some muscle for my personal studio build. Meeting noise bylaw requirements is priority number one. Number two is having it comfortable (HVAC). Number three is treating the small room acoustically as best as possible. Number four is having it look great for vibe and great video shots.

I went over yesterday for consultation session number one and after doing some SPL measurements, the project went from a simple beef up, tapping into his house HVAC, and acoustic treatment project to a full on room in a room, HVAC silencer, mini-split project.

Bylaws in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada are 65 dBA at property line. I initially measured C weighted and he hit 66. A weighted will read louder above 1kHz and as it was, I could damned near hear cymbals. I could hear the tone in his room, outside. Not good at all. That is what triggered him to say screw it, let's go all in.

Here is what I quickly drew up for him. We got a plan of attack for all of the HVAC including what units, we figured out silencer box dimensions and duct work.
Attachment:
Darren From Above.jpg

The dimensions of the room AFTER building the room in a room will be 11' 11" long (into the nook) or 9' 10" (to the door) by 11' 3 3/8" wide by 7' 1/4" tall. We will be doing an inside out ceiling, so that 7' 1/4" will be the bottom of the LVL stud. Acoustic ceiling height will be 7' 5 3/4".

Inner leaf stale air return will be run through 3 silencer boxes stuffed between floor joists on the far left side of the SketchUp render, overhead. Behind the nook inner leaf wall, we will situate the other 3 silencer boxes. The fresh air inner leaf supply silencer sleeves will penetrate through the nook wall up high and the mini split head will be underneath of it. This will provide fresh air into the top of the mini split head.

To the far right of the drum room in the SketchUp render, there is a storage room where we will penetrate his rim board with the return and supply ducts to outside. They will run through an HRV that has a fan in it. I haven't run the numbers for that yet (as I haven't drawn up the silencer boxes... and it's only been 1 evening since he decided this it route he wants to go), but I'm hoping the static pressure of the system will fall within the fan spec of the HRV. If it doesn't, we will probably just scrap the HRV and go with a strong inline duct fan.

Before deciding to use this room as a drum room, he had drywalled it as a bedroom. He had stuffed some Safe'n'Sound in the joists as his master bedroom is directly above. He used ultralight 1/2" drywall everywhere. He can re-use some sheets to finish his basement laundry room. The rest can go in the garbage. After deciding to go all out on the room, he immediately started unscrewing the drywall (luckily it wasn't mudded/taped yet). Here are a couple progress pics from last night.
Attachment:
Darren 1.jpg

Attachment:
Darren 2.jpg

So for now, I'm going to draw up the silencer boxes for him and we are getting a price on the mini-split from my buddy who runs an HVAC company. Darren will finish tearing off the drywall, extend the perimeter outer leaf walls to the foundation, beef up the sub floor above, and seal everything.

I'll try and get Darren on the forum so he can update this thread instead of me. But if he doesn't, I will, just so there is more content on the forum for you turkey's to look at. Hopefully something along the way can help someone. And as usual, hopefully one of you catch some mistakes and help myself and Darren out with his design/build!

Greg


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Okay, so I finished designing the silencer boxes minus the sleeves and some connections. That way Darren will know where to put his outer leaf wall separating his drum room and storage room. I was able to squeeze them into a 1 foot gap. He is pretty desperate to keep as much space in that storage room as possible. I've left a decent gap between the silencers and the studs to maintain a decent spring gap there (with the stud depth).

Here are the 3 silencers in that wall (I have the "lids" off of them). They are all the same dimensions. One is flipped as it is the inner leaf supply. The other two that we can see inside are the outer leaf silencers and are anchored to the storage room wall. They have some varying cross sectional areas throughout to help with static pressure and give that extra little bit of impedance mismatch.
Attachment:
From Room Looking Towards 3 Silencers.jpg

The inner leaf return silencers is where things got interesting. In order to have them on the opposite side of the room, we utilized the existing floor joists. In order to have the correct cross sectional area, it worked out that we have to feed 3 individual silencers with 3" round duct. Luckily, he had 3 available joist spaces. The math JUST worked out perfect for these. With these, I'm able to have the air velocity under 150 feet per minute.
Attachment:
Inner Leaf Return Below.jpg

Attachment:
Inner Leaf Return Above.jpg

I'm obviously not done, but it's coming along very quick. I made an algorithm to help me calculate silencer box dimensions fast. It sure does help. I think I'll let Darren catch up with the project before I go into much more design as I should be prioritizing my own for a bit here.

Here is the room overview thus far:
Attachment:
Room Overview.jpg

Oh, and an update on the heating/cooling aspect of the room. The LG mini split we want ends up being just over $3500 plus depending on how long the commissioning takes, it could be up to $1500 parts/labour. I said we'd mount it and energize it (Darren's brother is an electrician) to save some money. In the end, we found a $1200 no-name type brand that would work and we'd run all the lines and just have my buddy come and vacuum test it and charge it for $180.
HERE is the no-name brand one we found. I'm still thinking about the cheapest option for Darren. The HRV won't be super cheap either so we might ditch that for now. Either way, these silencer boxes are necessary for the fresh air insertion loss. Mounting a mini split head won't change anything of what we are doing right now.

Greg


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Darren has been working hard beefing up his existing ceiling -- subfloor for the main floor above him.

Here's a pic:
Attachment:
Darren Ceiling Beef Up 1.jpg

He is going to move his cleats over and seal things up better. For ease of construction he decided to use MDF.

He's been doing this all by himself! I wish I had time to go help him more!

Greg


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:38 am 
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So I devoted today to finishing up the mechanical side of things for Darren. I drew up the rough idea for the duct work. The dark duct is flex duct of some sort. I calculated the static pressure of his entire system to be ~0.184 in wg.

Bad news, the cheapest HRV I can find him that will suit his needs will run him $1263.68 + 5% GST. So for now, I think he will probably just go with an inline fan.

The fan I found him that would supply the around the correct amount of CFM at that static pressure will be the Fantech FG 4XL. I will call tomorrow to get a price on that unit.

I also drew a bunch more detail on his SketchUp like outer leaf drywall and things like that to make it more accurate for him to ensure his outer leaf is sealed.

I also found him a nice large grille for his supply sleeve that will keep the air velocity nice and slow with a large open percentage and minimal vane angle.

Here's the HVAC system:
Attachment:
Darren HVAC Done.jpg


Now, to get back to my stuff!

Greg


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Last edited by Gregwor on Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:07 am 
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I headed over to Darren's place the other night to give him a hand with his project. He has got a ton done. Beefing up and sealing up the outer leaf is a big job for one guy. The rim board along the top of his foundation was very tricky because the top of the foundation is very uneven and messy. So cutting pieces to fit in there was a pain. The outer leaf is on the home stretch. Next comes HVAC preliminary stages then the inner leaf and all the aspects that come along with that.

Here are some progress pictures.

Attachment:
image1.jpeg

Attachment:
image2.jpeg

Attachment:
image3.jpeg

Attachment:
image4.jpeg


Greg


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Gregwor wrote:
I headed over to Darren's place the other night to give him a hand with his project. He has got a ton done. Beefing up and sealing up the outer leaf is a big job for one guy. The rim board along the top of his foundation was very tricky because the top of the foundation is very uneven and messy. So cutting pieces to fit in there was a pain. The outer leaf is on the home stretch. Next comes HVAC preliminary stages then the inner leaf and all the aspects that come along with that.

Here are some progress pictures.

Attachment:
image1.jpeg

Attachment:
image2.jpeg

Attachment:
image3.jpeg

Attachment:
image4.jpeg


Greg


Greg,
Forgive me if the terms I use are incorrect, but this is pretty new to me and I'm looking to do something similar soon. Those blocks of wood on the sides of the joists, are those the cleats you're referring to? Were they always there, or were those added to the joists to put sheet rock above to beef up the ceiling as you mentioned? Are those two sheets of sheet shock in the ceiling with green glue in between them?
Thank you,
Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:14 am 
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Mark,

Those are his cleats, yes. They're rather large, but that's what he found the cheapest to use. I believe they were 2x3 dimenionsal lumber. They are screwed into the joists to hold up his beef up material. He will move them once his sealant dries and then apply more sealant where those cleats are. The sealant will have a total of two layers to ensure no leaks.

There is sealant around the perimeter of each layer of material. He sealed around the joists where the subfloor above connects as well. There is Green Glue compound between each layer of MDF as well. He added two layers of 1/2" MDF which is roughly equivalent to the mass of two layers of 5/8" drywall.

Greg

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:04 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
Mark,

Those are his cleats, yes. They're rather large, but that's what he found the cheapest to use. I believe they were 2x3 dimenionsal lumber. They are screwed into the joists to hold up his beef up material. He will move them once his sealant dries and then apply more sealant where those cleats are. The sealant will have a total of two layers to ensure no leaks.

There is sealant around the perimeter of each layer of material. He sealed around the joists where the subfloor above connects as well. There is Green Glue compound between each layer of MDF as well. He added two layers of 1/2" MDF which is roughly equivalent to the mass of two layers of 5/8" drywall.

Greg


Thanks for clarifying that. If he takes the cleats away, how is the MDF going to stay up? Is there sealant all over it between the top and the subfloor?

Thanks,
Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:38 am 
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Quote:
Thanks for clarifying that. If he takes the cleats away, how is the MDF going to stay up?

He will move one cleat at a time. But, in theory, the sealant up there will be dried enough to hold the wood up there. That, plus the Green Glue compound will have a suction cup type effect. Remember though, the GG compound is NOT glue.

Quote:
Is there sealant all over it between the top and the subfloor?

There is GG COMPOUND between the subfloor and the first layer of MDF. Then there is more compound between the two layers of MDF. The sealant is applied at the perimeter of each layer :thu:

Greg

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:58 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for clarifying that. If he takes the cleats away, how is the MDF going to stay up?

He will move one cleat at a time. But, in theory, the sealant up there will be dried enough to hold the wood up there. That, plus the Green Glue compound will have a suction cup type effect. Remember though, the GG compound is NOT glue.

Quote:
Is there sealant all over it between the top and the subfloor?

There is GG COMPOUND between the subfloor and the first layer of MDF. Then there is more compound between the two layers of MDF. The sealant is applied at the perimeter of each layer :thu:

Greg


Thanks.

I have OSI SC175 Draft and Acoustical Sound Sealant. Would that work at keeping pieces of sheetrock up if it was done in a similar fashion or is there a different type of sealant that would need to be used?

Thank you,

Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:52 am 
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Quote:
I have OSI SC175 Draft and Acoustical Sound Sealant. Would that work at keeping pieces of sheetrock up if it was done in a similar fashion or is there a different type of sealant that would need to be used?

I've never seen or used this product before. The only thing close to a consistency or shore rating on the website is listed as:
Sag or Slump 0.10 inches

The only way to know if this product will work good for the studio build sealant application will be to buy a tube and try it. See how easy it is to work with. See how clean it is to work with. And of course, see how flexible it stays after curing.

If this stuff is a nightmare and fails your tests, try some regular silicone. Green Glue Sealant is a breeze to work with, but it does shrink and it does crack. So you need multiple layers of it. Plus it recently doubled in price where I live. Probably because our trade deal with the United States collapsed.

Greg

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:56 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
I have OSI SC175 Draft and Acoustical Sound Sealant. Would that work at keeping pieces of sheetrock up if it was done in a similar fashion or is there a different type of sealant that would need to be used?

I've never seen or used this product before. The only thing close to a consistency or shore rating on the website is listed as:
Sag or Slump 0.10 inches

The only way to know if this product will work good for the studio build sealant application will be to buy a tube and try it. See how easy it is to work with. See how clean it is to work with. And of course, see how flexible it stays after curing.

If this stuff is a nightmare and fails your tests, try some regular silicone. Green Glue Sealant is a breeze to work with, but it does shrink and it does crack. So you need multiple layers of it. Plus it recently doubled in price where I live. Probably because our trade deal with the United States collapsed.

Greg



OK Greg, thanks for the reply. I think this is more to stop noise and drafts to go through than anything else. I'll probably have to try another sealant. I think they just signed something new so hopefully the price of the Green Glue will go down.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:17 am 
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Mark, would you mind filling out your profile more thoroughly? The mods are pretty strict about following the forum rules.

You can read the rules here:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7572

Thanks!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:42 pm 
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I swung by Darren's place today for a quick visit and was very impressed with his progress. Other than the small wall where we have to deal with the silencer boxes, he has completed his outer leaf. He is just re-using the old insulation which is a combination of Safe'n'Sound and some random pink fluffy. He's held it back lightly with string to prevent it collapsing over time and during the standing of his inside out inner leaf walls.

The reason his drums are set up in the picture is because the rest of his basement was being taped/mudded. He's been working lots at his job and is now going to paint the rest of his basement while everything is out of the way before he continues on the drum room. This will give me time to double check my HVAC calculations for him. Also, I'll be recording the drums for his solo project shortly so everything is happening at once.

Here is a progress picture in the meantime!
Attachment:
Darren Outer Leaf Done.jpeg


The next steps for him will either be door construction or silencer boxes/HVAC along with electrical prep.

Greg


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:02 am 
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Darren will be getting his door slab, 4731 door seals, some 4 ½” x 4” Hager BB1168 hinges, and duct liner soon. We picked up MDF for his silencer boxes and he has built and stood most of his inside out walls (one has to be built around his door jamb so until the door is ready he cannot do that one). I'm going to help him build his silencer boxes since I have the tools to do it.

Here is a pic of his progress so far. I haven't personally been there to see it, but he has done well considering he hasn't had any help from anyone!
Attachment:
Darren Inside Out Walls Up.jpeg

Greg


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