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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:21 am 
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So, my noob assumption was that if the door is sealed, the MSM cavity is contained.
Well, yes, it is "contained", but it is not creating the proper "spring" for the MSM system...

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My wife is begging for some entry facing storage, and she's right, we need it.
The storage space is fine, and you could probably find even more space if you looked carefully... but the "sound lock" is wasting space.

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Another inexperienced assumption of mine was that having that small entry way be part of the live room would create a small sound "build-up" area that would hurt more than help. Is this not correct?
There will certainly be a different acoustic in that space, yes, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing! It might be useful. You might find that some instruments track really well when played in that area, or close to it... or far from it. It's a LIVE room, for tracking, so it does not have to have smooth, even, perfect response all over. I often design live rooms with different "zones": one end more dead, the other more live, for example. To have flexibility. Then you can move the instruments and mics around the room creatively, change the orientation too, to get the sound you want.

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Since I did not have access to a great LR up to this point, I got used to relying on vocal booths. After consideration, not having one really doesn't seem like it would effect my work flow at all.
OK; but you do have that nice little area off to the left of the CR that could be a vocal booth, or isolation booth (for re-amping electric guitar cabs, for example... ), or... :)

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So I went through the entire thread hoping to find a diagram for how his ceilings were done, to no avail. By inside out, do you just mean that the dry wall was placed on the top of the frame instead of the bottom?
That's the BASIC idea, yes, but the implementation is a bit more complex than that. Think about it: How did he get up there, inside a 6" gap, to nail the drywall on top of the joists? :) 8)

Here's a sequence of images from another studio, that show roughly how it is done:

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Quote:
I think I saw that he had a set of reference monitors, in wall, providing hear-back / sound to the LR.
Not in the Live Room, no. Only the speakers in the Control Room are soffit mounted (precision soffit mounted!). He does have speakers in the LR as well, yes, because he has a secondary workstation in there that he needs for his workflow, but the just sit on the desk.

Quote:
The reason why I ask is that I have a set of KRK's that are gathering dust, and I could see them getting some good use in that circumstance.
You could definitely use those in the LR if you wanted to, for playback to the musicians. But there's no point in soffit-mounting those, because there is no "mix position"! No sweet spot, no symmetry, ... just mount them on brackets, shelves, or arms attached to the wall.

Oh yeah, and take careful note of all Greg's pointers! That's the voice of recent experience speaking there... he's just been through all of that.... and still feels the pain, I think!


- Stuart -


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:12 pm 
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Perhaps you might be able to get some ideas from this overall general view of the corner control room:

Attachment:
FRANK--general-overhead2.png



Might be useful...

- Stuart -


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:21 am 
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Hey all. Thanks again for the feedback. After meeting with the designer, I found out a few requirements for my area, as far as building codes go, that changed a few things. Firstly, I was told that I need to have a higher slope on my ceiling to allow snow to melt properly. So, higher ceilings are incoming. Secondly I was told that I need to dig four feet to get below frost level for my foundation, so we’re probably going to add a basement, and just go down another 4.

Obviously these new developments change a lot of things. I’ll post back once I get more info, and with any luck, will have a design that features a larger studio block.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:28 am 
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Cool! Higher roof, and lower floor! That makes for an EXCELLENT studio.

Hint: Build the studio in the under-ground part, and keep the ceiling of that part as high as you possible can. The studio MUST be on a concrete slab that is "on grade" (directly on the ground, no other rooms below it).

So design the place to have the studio in the "basement", for sure. That's a no-brainer. The design whatever goes above that to be as high as possible, so that you get as much ceiling height as you can. 10 feet, 12 feet, more....

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:18 am 
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Interesting that you would say I NEED to have the studio in the basement. I can definitely achieve higher ceilings on the main floor, but doing it the basement will be trickier. It would probably end up looking like a split level house. What's the rationality behind that definitive statement? Thanks again for your help!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:53 am 
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What's the rationality behind that definitive statement?
If you build a studio on a floor that is NOT resting on the ground, then you have a resonant cavity below you. That makes it much harder to isolate the room start with, and very likely leaves you with impact-noise issues down below, as well as possible acoustic issues in the room itself.

Think of it this way: the three major ways of stopping sound are: Mass, Damping, and Rigidity. So, you can make a barrier that is so incredibly massive that no sound wave can make it move at all, or you can make a barrier that is so incredibly rigid that no sound can make it move at all, or so incredible damped that no sound can make it vibrate at all. If you have a floor over an empty space, you basically have a drum head: it isn't that massive, it certainly isn't rigid, and it even more certainly isn't damped! It's a drum: it resonates. On the other hand, if you have a concrete "slab on grade", then you have not just the mass of the concrete itself, but also the mass of the entire planet, you have not just the rigidity of the concrete itself (which isn't that good when supported only around he edges), but also the rigidity of the entire planet, and you have not just the damping of the concrete itself (which is negligible), but the damping of the entire planet. So, with your studio built on a "slab-on-grade" floor, you are basically using Planet Earth as your floor. It's hard to beat that! :)

Another way of thinking about it: Go find a nice big kick drum, and tap the beater head with your finger: Listen to the resonananananananncenenennece... Now press all the tips of your fingers on your other hand up against the drum head, gently, spread out a bit, applying just a little pressure... tap the head again, exactly the same as before. Greatly reduced resona..p! Because your fingers are damping the head, absorbing much of the vibration. Building your studio on a slab-on-grade is equivalent to having millions of fingers pressed up against the bottom of the slab: major big-time damping. And for free! (The government has not yet figured out a way to tax you for using the acoustic properties of the planet.... yet!) There is no easy way to damp a floor on the second story, or any other story.

So, if you want good isolation at low cost, then build your studio "slab on grade". Yes, you do need thermal insulation under the slab where you live, and gravel, and sand, and an impermeable membrane, but that does not negate the effects of the planet. Not a problem.

Look around the forum, and the world: the vast majority of studios are built this way: on the ground. Those that are built on upper floors either have to live with reduced isolation, or they have to implement more complex (and expensive) solutions, such as floating their floors. Here's how to do that, if you really do decide to not heed this advice.... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 .


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:54 am 
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Thanks for the explanation Stuart, and trust me, there will be no advice I get on this forum that goes "un-heeded" :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:10 pm 
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If you build a studio on a floor that is NOT resting on the ground, then you have a resonant cavity below you. That makes it much harder to isolate the room


I've been thinking more about this, this evening. I totally get the concept of not having a cavity below the studio to resonate sound. What about footsteps of people above the studio? piping going through the joists? I'm sure the piping and HVAC stuff can be planned to not be an issue, but what do people do to keep footsteps above from getting in their tracks? Is it really easier to isolate the top, then the bottom?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:20 pm 
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What about footsteps of people above the studio? piping going through the joists?
That's why you build your studio as a fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM system! :)

All of that is blocked by the isolation system that forms your room.

Quote:
Is it really easier to isolate the top, then the bottom?
Yes it is, because those sounds are in the outer-leaf structure, not the inner-leaf structure, so you will never hear them. Your inner-leaf ceiling prevents them from getting to you. But your floor is different: it can only be one leaf, realistically (see the link I gave you before, about the perils of trying to float a floor...), so it needs to be "slab on grade" to prevent any of that from getting in to your studio. The entire inner-leaf of your studio rests ONLY on the slab, and does NOT touch anything else: it is free-standing, completely independent: thus, it is "fully decoupled". The floor is not, so it needs the special situation of being slab-on-grade.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:25 pm 
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Secondly I was told that I need to dig four feet to get below frost level for my foundation, so we’re probably going to add a basement, and just go down another 4.

For the studio section of your home, have you considered not having a floor above it? At least your live room section. That way you can have a wicked high ceiling. And even if you didn't have a floor above your control room, you could use that area for most of your HVAC stuff like 6 out of your 8 silencer boxes and heck, even a designated air handler up there. The thought of that gets me super excited. Food for thought.

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:21 am 
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Update:

Sorry it's been so long guys. So the situation has drastically changed. Our new build on the family land turned into us just buying the current home on the family land. Obviously this scraps my designs for now. There are some interesting options that explore in the coming months (farm outbuildings... BIG ones) - when I get to that point, I'll check back in. Thanks a ton again for your help so far!


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