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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:23 am 
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- The same idea with the ventilation. A pipe for in, a pipe for out. Through the ground, through the concrete, up to the inner space.

How big are these ventilation pipes going be? Sorry if this has all been covered above.

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About the ventilation. There will be an active in, and een passive out. What's important about the placement? Does it matter that the in and out are next to each other in the inner room? Or should the in for example be in one corner, and the out in another corner?

Your supply and return should be as far as away from one another as possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:40 pm 
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How big are these ventilation pipes going be? Sorry if this has all been covered above.


Not determined this yet. Any advice?

Something like this for in the concrete --> https://www.gamma.nl/assortiment/renson ... /p/B121418

And then something like this: https://www.gamma.nl/assortiment/renson ... /p/B121379

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Your supply and return should be as far as away from one another as possible.


Okay, that's clear. And does the height also matter? For example the in as low as possible and the out as high as possible?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:15 pm 
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Hi everyone,

I made a few calculations and these two scenarios are the extremes;

11,94 m2 vs 12,66 m2

3-4 dB difference in TL on significant frequencies. But, if I understand correctly 10 dB is, for the human ear, a doubling or halving of the loudness. And 3 dB = pretty insignificant...

What btw isn't calculated --> that the complete gap = filled with insulation. And the gap is 157 mm in the 11,94 scenario. So, then maybe it is significant

What do you guys think?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:04 pm 
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I'd kill for an extra 3dB of isolation on my project! If it won't cost you much extra financially, I would do it. But, you have to decide what is more important to you - more isolation or more space.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:53 pm 
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Okay, that's a clear answer, it is valuable thus, the extra 3 dB isolation:)

Then I'll have to think... 0,72 extra m2 doesn't sound like much, but it is 6% extra space...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:36 pm 
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Hi everyone,

A big step has been made! Last weekend we've poured the concrete. And it went really well.

Before pouring the concrete we made sure that:

- there is a ventilation in + out --> through the ground, halfway the isolation and then up through the concrete. So we don't have to make holes in the walls;
- power cable through the ventilation pipe (so we also don't have to make a hole in the wall for that)
- Outside we will build two s-boxes for the vent pipes

Now time for the next part --> making the inside of the outer walls 'soundproof' (before building the room within the room)

Right now I'm looking at the possibilities of spraying plaster or concrete... Maybe easier than build a wooden framework with plasterboard on it (something like this is needed, because it isn't possible to put plasterboard right away on the inside of the outer walls). Does someone has experience with this?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:48 am 
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kingrat wrote:
Hi everyone,

A big step has been made! Last weekend we've poured the concrete. And it went really well.

Before pouring the concrete we made sure that:

- there is a ventilation in + out --> through the ground, halfway the isolation and then up through the concrete. So we don't have to make holes in the walls;
- power cable through the ventilation pipe (so we also don't have to make a hole in the wall for that)
- Outside we will build two s-boxes for the vent pipes

Now time for the next part --> making the inside of the outer walls 'soundproof' (before building the room within the room)

Right now I'm looking at the possibilities of spraying plaster or concrete... Maybe easier than build a wooden framework with plasterboard on it (something like this is needed, because it isn't possible to put plasterboard right away on the inside of the outer walls). Does someone has experience with this?


Why is it not possible to put plasterboard right away on the inside of the outer walls?

Paul

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:34 pm 
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Hi Paul, thanks for your reply. The inside of the outer walls and roof are a bit a mess... As in: weird corners, beams, posts.

See here a few pictures, so you can judge for yourself:

https://imgshare.io/image/Nvr8RZ
https://imgshare.io/image/NvrXgc
https://imgshare.io/image/NvrIq6

I was thinking about something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9F4fjv ... e=youtu.be

Of course it's possible to build a wooden frame work + place plasterboard on that. But I thought this was maybe easier + the current outer wall = the same layer of mass when you spray concrete on it. So you get the max out of the present mass


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:37 am 
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kingrat wrote:
Hi Paul, thanks for your reply. The inside of the outer walls and roof are a bit a mess... As in: weird corners, beams, posts.

See here a few pictures, so you can judge for yourself:

https://imgshare.io/image/Nvr8RZ
https://imgshare.io/image/NvrXgc
https://imgshare.io/image/NvrIq6

I was thinking about something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9F4fjv ... e=youtu.be

Of course it's possible to build a wooden frame work + place plasterboard on that. But I thought this was maybe easier + the current outer wall = the same layer of mass when you spray concrete on it. So you get the max out of the present mass



I understand. so the part of the walls which are timber do not have anything behind them? Just the timber framing and panels? and that sits on top and in between the brick?

You could use the stucco spray, it might be quite messy and not sure how well it adhere to the wooden panels over time.

You could also beef up between the studs by cutting plywood/OSB/Drywall/Cement board (or whatever) so that it fits inside each bay. That's a lot of cutting though.

I think if you have budget it would be better to just take out the timber and build up the walls with more bricks, or concrete blocks, tying them into the existing bottom walls and pillars. That would guarantee almost identical surface density and would be a lot more effective than the other methods.

Paul

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:57 pm 
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I understand. so the part of the walls which are timber do not have anything behind them? Just the timber framing and panels? and that sits on top and in between the brick?


Yes indeed... Quite an interesting structure...

Quote:
I think if you have budget it would be better to just take out the timber and build up the walls with more bricks, or concrete blocks, tying them into the existing bottom walls and pillars.


Also thought about that indeed. But the roof isn't from concrete, so is it useful to do this?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:15 am 
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kingrat wrote:
Quote:
I understand. so the part of the walls which are timber do not have anything behind them? Just the timber framing and panels? and that sits on top and in between the brick?


Yes indeed... Quite an interesting structure...

Quote:
I think if you have budget it would be better to just take out the timber and build up the walls with more bricks, or concrete blocks, tying them into the existing bottom walls and pillars.


Also thought about that indeed. But the roof isn't from concrete, so is it useful to do this?


Well if you decide to use bricks there, and if your new inner leaf ceiling is going to be below the ceiling joists then that means your air gap between the inner and outer leaves at the ceiling/roof will be much larger than the air gap between your walls. The larger air gap will make up for the lesser mass on your roof.

Have you already sorted out how to do your roof ventilation without compromising your isolation?

If you don't want to add bricks then you can just beef up between the studs where your wooden panels are with drywall. You might want to use a breather membrane on there first before you put the drywall up tight against the wooden panels.

Paul

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:50 pm 
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Well if you decide to use bricks there, and if your new inner leaf ceiling is going to be below the ceiling joists then that means your air gap between the inner and outer leaves at the ceiling/roof will be much larger than the air gap between your walls. The larger air gap will make up for the lesser mass on your roof.


Yes, that's the plan. Build the inner leaf below the ceiling joists. We will put them a bit higher, to gain space, but the air gap will still be much larger than the gap between the walls. We will reconsider bricks... Not to bad of an option. But, as you can see, we need a lot of bricks then! Also for replacing the glass sliding door (which is already removed). I see I didn't share a picture of this yet, only of the three other sides: https://imgshare.io/image/20201012-124553.NmuphO

Quote:
Have you already sorted out how to do your roof ventilation without compromising your isolation?


What do you mean with specific roof ventilation? In the inner room are two vent pipes, in and out. They go through the concrete below the ground, next to the studio I will build two s-boxes, where the vent pipes come up. With the in --> there will be ventilator or maybe later a hvac unit.

Quote:
You might want to use a breather membrane on there first before you put the drywall up tight against the wooden panels.


And where would you put the breather membrane? Behind the drywall?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:26 pm 
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kingrat wrote:
Quote:
Well if you decide to use bricks there, and if your new inner leaf ceiling is going to be below the ceiling joists then that means your air gap between the inner and outer leaves at the ceiling/roof will be much larger than the air gap between your walls. The larger air gap will make up for the lesser mass on your roof.


Yes, that's the plan. Build the inner leaf below the ceiling joists. We will put them a bit higher, to gain space, but the air gap will still be much larger than the gap between the walls. We will reconsider bricks... Not to bad of an option. But, as you can see, we need a lot of bricks then! Also for replacing the glass sliding door (which is already removed). I see I didn't share a picture of this yet, only of the three other sides: https://imgshare.io/image/20201012-124553.NmuphO

Quote:
Have you already sorted out how to do your roof ventilation without compromising your isolation?


What do you mean with specific roof ventilation? In the inner room are two vent pipes, in and out. They go through the concrete below the ground, next to the studio I will build two s-boxes, where the vent pipes come up. With the in --> there will be ventilator or maybe later a hvac unit.

Quote:
You might want to use a breather membrane on there first before you put the drywall up tight against the wooden panels.


And where would you put the breather membrane? Behind the drywall?



The underside of the roof deck must be ventilated unless you have a warm roof design. A warm roof design is where you have thick, rigid insulation on the outside, on top of the roof, usually covered by a rubber water proof membrane or metal zinc sheets.

If you do not have that, then you have a cold roof design and it must be ventilated properly to avoid interstitial condensation building up on the under side of your roof deck causing rot, mould and water to drip down inside your room, destroying everything.

This ventilation has nothing to do with your fresh air supply & return. It ventilation for your structure, so it can breathe.

This type of ventilation requires roof vents; usually soffit vents at the eaves and a ridge vent all the way along the top. Of course, this means cutting lots of holes, which would trash your sound isolation, unless designed properly.

What you will need to do is put drywall/plywood/osb on the bottom of your roof rafters/joists, leaving at least a 50mm air gap behind it so that air can come into every bay under your roof deck, and then out again at the ridge/opposite side (in the case of a flat roof). The air must have a completely unobstructed pathway.

It will look a little something like this:

Attachment:
Cold roof assembly.jpg



For your other question:

The breather membrane would go between your existing wooden cladding and the drywall/plywood/osb that you're going to add. The point of it is to protect your walls just in case your cladding lets water through. It needs to be breathable so that any water vapour that does get through, or any vapour from the interior of the space can escape and not get trapped. So, the membrane is water proof but vapour permeable. Something like tyvek, or any breathable house wrap will work. You must install it properly, overlapping it correctly and sealing it with tape in the right places.

Paul


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Good point... Thanks a lot for this and the clear description and solution direction. Really appreciate that.

Would it also work if we put two vent-boxes (s-style) in the outer walls (opposite sides)? To create an airflow.

Regarding the roof --> that there is already quite a big air gap. Very much true... Hadn't thought about it like that. Will save us a lot of work if we just put drywall on the wooden walls. Maybe do the finishing with the concrete spray idea mentioned above. To make sure all corners etc. are both air tight and have enough mass


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:06 pm 
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Is anyone familiar with Tecsound?

Never heard of it until now. Could this be a replacement for green glue? Or use together? Or useless at all?

Edit: use together ain't too smart I think, since both GG and tecsound have similar functions. And I cannot find any test results from them used together...


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