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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:16 am 
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Location: Metković - Croatia
HI guys, i am new here. I need your help. I have found out that I don't have controled low end in my project studio on Yamaha HS7. My mix is good on them but when I go on hi fi speakers it is too baisy, you know how the story goes. So..., I have decided to turn around in my room and build bass traps in corners of my smallest wall and mount speakers in those bass traps on the height of my ears but I am not shure about construction and I would wery much appreciate your help.
My biggest question is does the inside of bass trap needs to be fillled with rock wool or I just need build pannel from floor to ceeling with window for speakers?
Second question is can i mount monitors on the wall in the corners (I was thinking something like triangle shelf on the wall for speaker)?
Thank you in advance


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:25 am 
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Welcome to the forum Vedran!

Please read the forum rules and completely fill out your profile.

Quote:
I have found out that I don't have controled low end in my project studio on Yamaha HS7. My mix is good on them but when I go on hi fi speakers it is too baisy

Without acoustic treatment this sounds about right.

Quote:
I have decided to turn around in my room and build bass traps in corners of my smallest wall and mount speakers in those bass traps on the height of my ears but I am not shure about construction and I would wery much appreciate your help.

You do not want to place your speakers directly in the corner. You also don't want to eat up good bass trapping space with speakers.

Quote:
My biggest question is does the inside of bass trap needs to be fillled with rock wool or I just need build pannel from floor to ceeling with window for speakers?

There are several different ways to achieve bass trapping in corners, but a very effective way that doesn't require much design or tuning would be a superchunk bass trap. Basically you want to cut slabs of rockwool into the biggest triangles you can and stack them floor to ceiling. Then cover the insulation with a small framed piece of fabric. Remember, there are 12 corners in a rectangular room. Try to fit the biggest bass traps you can in as many corners as you can. Tri-corners are the most effective places for bass traps so be sure to go floor to ceiling. Get insulation in the tri-corners!

Quote:
Second question is can i mount monitors on the wall in the corners (I was thinking something like triangle shelf on the wall for speaker)?

No. Use the search feature on the forum to look up soffit mount or speakers or control room. There are almost endless threads about this topic and there are guidelines to follow. One being to not mount your speakers 45 degrees from a corner! Get reading and if you have any questions that you can't find the answers to, please reach out and ask here on this thread. It's good to keep all of YOUR questions together on this thread so that people like me can keep track of your build!

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:27 am 
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Location: Metković - Croatia
Gregwor wrote:
Welcome to the forum Vedran!

Please read the forum rules and completely fill out your profile.

Quote:
I have found out that I don't have controled low end in my project studio on Yamaha HS7. My mix is good on them but when I go on hi fi speakers it is too baisy

Without acoustic treatment this sounds about right.

Quote:
I have decided to turn around in my room and build bass traps in corners of my smallest wall and mount speakers in those bass traps on the height of my ears but I am not shure about construction and I would wery much appreciate your help.

You do not want to place your speakers directly in the corner. You also don't want to eat up good bass trapping space with speakers.

Quote:
My biggest question is does the inside of bass trap needs to be fillled with rock wool or I just need build pannel from floor to ceeling with window for speakers?

There are several different ways to achieve bass trapping in corners, but a very effective way that doesn't require much design or tuning would be a superchunk bass trap. Basically you want to cut slabs of rockwool into the biggest triangles you can and stack them floor to ceiling. Then cover the insulation with a small framed piece of fabric. Remember, there are 12 corners in a rectangular room. Try to fit the biggest bass traps you can in as many corners as you can. Tri-corners are the most effective places for bass traps so be sure to go floor to ceiling. Get insulation in the tri-corners!

Quote:
Second question is can i mount monitors on the wall in the corners (I was thinking something like triangle shelf on the wall for speaker)?

No. Use the search feature on the forum to look up soffit mount or speakers or control room. There are almost endless threads about this topic and there are guidelines to follow. One being to not mount your speakers 45 degrees from a corner! Get reading and if you have any questions that you can't find the answers to, please reach out and ask here on this thread. It's good to keep all of YOUR questions together on this thread so that people like me can keep track of your build!

Greg

Thank you for your answers. It's not that I haven't done acoustic tretament but I still have low end issue so I am searching for new solution. My room is L shaped so it can't be perfect.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Are you able to do a quick SketchUp model of your room? Use SketchUp Make. They don't make it anymore but you can download the newest version your operating system will support here:

https://help.sketchup.com/en/downloading-older-versions

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:51 pm 
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Location: Metković - Croatia
Here it is, black pannels and bass traps are rockwool and grey pannels are pyramid foam. The dimensions are those which are in the model. Floor is OSB with carpets. Ceeling is all covered with pyramid foam 5cm thick.
So.., as I have low end issues with this setup I was thinking of rearanging the room by making big bass traps on the back shortest wall an placing speakers and table there. 180degrees turnaround, what do you think. Is it too tight there.
Thank you.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:31 am 
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That file won't open for me. I think Sketchup files are .skp
Many of us recommend a minimum treatment of 100mm fibre, PLUS 100mm airgap.
Your ceiling treatment is a quarter of that. Such thin treatments will absorb only the HF room tone, leading to a boomy acoustic.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:25 am 
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Location: Metković - Croatia
DanDan wrote:
That file won't open for me. I think Sketchup files are .skp
Many of us recommend a minimum treatment of 100mm fibre, PLUS 100mm airgap.
Your ceiling treatment is a quarter of that. Such thin treatments will absorb only the HF room tone, leading to a boomy acoustic.


Well I have tryed to add skp file but it's too big "The file is too big, maximum allowed size is 500 KiB". My file is 1.4Mb so i have zipped file and attached it, you need to unpack it.
I am attaching photo of sketch up model. Thank you for respond.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:58 am 
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I would start by getting rid of the foam. Like Dan said, it is doing the exact opposite to the acoustic response of your room than you need. Also, the bass traps you've drawn look too small. They should be at least 2 feet long at their hypotenuse. Build a cloud of insulation instead of the foam on your ceiling. The nook at the back of your room is a great place for some thick insulation/bass trapping!

I think it would be smart to measure the response of the room right now and then check it at each stage of your treatment upgrades. You can post images or mdat files here for us to check out.

Here are clear instructions how to do the measurements:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21122

I have tried a handful of different measurement mics and this one is the easiest to use and right now is the cheapest one out there!
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-au ... e--390-808

Greg

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:43 am
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Location: Metković - Croatia
He people and Happy New Year!
I was out on a trip for a few days and now I am back in studio.
I can't thank you enough Gregwor for this instructions for studio design.
Ok, here is my plan.
1. Order Extech 407732 Sound level meter (done and waiting for it to arrive)
2. Borrow measurement mic from a friend (when sound level meter arrives)
3. Measure room at this condition
4. Take off foam from celling and measuring again.
5. Aplying:
- new prebuild pannels (celling and sides),
- 2 new bass traps
- adding more rockwool to those small bass traps
6. Measuring room with new treatement
7. Turning room around and measuring it that way
8. Decideing which way sound better and eventualy adding more treatement if neded

I will inform you as I progress and I would be very grateful if you intervent if I do something wrong.
Thank you in advance.
I am attaching picture of studio right now.
Vedran


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:56 am 
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Location: Metković - Croatia
This is the plan how it will look in second version (red is new things/adjustements)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:20 am 
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Location: Lincolnshire, UK
Hi Vedran,

Your previous orientation was better I think.
By putting your desk in the "nook" you bring the side walls alot closer to the mix position, you will have more problems with side wall reflections and those panels on the side walls won't help much.

Your desk seems pretty huge, does it need to be that large? You will get strong reflections off the surface.

Your speakers are not in the best place on your desk. It's much better to put them on stands touching the absorbing panels on the front wall.

How far into the room is your mix position? It should be 30-40% away from the front wall.

You could fit some awesome bass trapping in that alcove. Are you using it for anything currently?
You would have massive improvements in damping the bass buildup by putting acoustic hangers, or deep insulation all along that back wall, especially in the corners.

Dan

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Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:53 am 
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Location: Metković - Croatia
Waka wrote:
Hi Vedran,

Your previous orientation was better I think.
By putting your desk in the "nook" you bring the side walls alot closer to the mix position, you will have more problems with side wall reflections and those panels on the side walls won't help much.

Your desk seems pretty huge, does it need to be that large? You will get strong reflections off the surface.

Your speakers are not in the best place on your desk. It's much better to put them on stands touching the absorbing panels on the front wall.

How far into the room is your mix position? It should be 30-40% away from the front wall.

You could fit some awesome bass trapping in that alcove. Are you using it for anything currently?
You would have massive improvements in damping the bass buildup by putting acoustic hangers, or deep insulation all along that back wall, especially in the corners.

Dan


Hi Dan,
Thank you for reply.
I was thinking of turning around because I was wondering will it sound better coz I am not happy right now but I will not rush. I am planing of making measurements in one and the other side and then decide which one sounds better, with your help of course. Other thing that I am getting by turning around is litlle more space for my trio band, well.. not exactly more space but it feels more in the square. Right now in that alcove are drums. Bass player and me are by the desk and it doesn't feel right.
I am planing of resizeing my desk, I feel too that is a litlle too big but the speakers are on the desk stands (you can see it on the atached sketchup photo and at the end of my youtube video https://youtu.be/HBcrBOXPo88 )
My mix position right now is about 35% in the room.
My plan is to make 10cm thick acoustic hangers above mixeng area (on both sides) with 10cm air gap and of course heavy bass traps on that back wall.
Right now I am waiting for sound level meter to arrive and in the meantime I am building acoustic panels.
Thank you Dan once again for you sugestions and advices.
Kind regards
Vedran


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:48 pm 
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Location: Metković - Croatia
Hi people,
While I am waiting for measuring equipement I am building panels and bass traps and today I see this video
https://youtu.be/g4Nb2EhxvgM
And I am a bit concered. Aperently this rock wool is not safe at all, it can be carcinogen.
What do you think about that?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:14 am 
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Ignore that dude. He is just trying to sell his untested carbon product. He is famously known around the acoustics world as a fraud.

Greg

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:20 am 
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There have been quite a few studies about mineral wool materials. The more recent ones were looking at the long term effects of fibres in the lungs.

The World Health Organisation declassified mineral wool as Carcinogenic in 2002. This was because it is biodissolvable in the lungs. (paraphrasing) Your lungs can break down the larger fibres into ones small enough to get rid of. And therefore not likely to form into cancers.

There are risks to people who are allergic to the binders etc, and some people with Asthma or lung conditions are more likely to be irritated when handling it, but the EU currently considers it not cancer causing.

I have asthma and I value the quality of the air I breath, and exposed insulation isn't in usual buildings, so I'm not certain of the effects of me breathing in any fibres, so in my studio I plan to place a layer of (fire retardant) polyester wadding over the insulation underneath my fabric covering, to hold in any loose fibres.

But as regards to cancer producing, we won't be getting anywhere near enough exposure to have any trouble. Considering it shouldn't be getting knocked around much and dispersing fibres, and you will be wearing a mask when handling it.

Dan

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Stay up at night reading books on acoustics and studio design, learn Sketchup, bang your head against a wall, redesign your studio 15 times, curse the gods of HVAC silencers and door seals .... or hire a studio designer.


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