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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:12 pm 
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Location: Orange, Australia
Hi everyone.

I am just embarking on the design phase for a 2 room studio that will include a live room and control room ...but it’s time to add some expertise to my enthusiasm!

I have been searching through the forum for relevant info and waded through (a number of times) “Build it Like a Pro” and the Master Handbook of Acoustics.

I am located just outside Orange (3 ½ hours from Sydney) and am in the process of lodging documents to gain approval to demolish my existing zincalume shed and to build a replacement, which will house both my studio and a general workshop.

The plan is to purchase and erect a zincalume (herein referred to as tin) roofed open “hay shed” erected on a concrete base and build the studio/workshop under that canopy. I’ve taken this route as it presents a more simple path for regulatory approval notwithstanding the fact that I need to do some work to bring the transmission loss performance of the roof up to that of the walls.

A lot of what I’m doing is based on Stevev’s posts on the “Dog and Bear“ build.

Isolation wise, I face very similar circumstances to the “Dog and Bear” build with expected inside measurements up to 115dB and my nearest neighbour at 25/30m – I’d like to be at 40dB by the time I hit his back wall. My inside measurements are based off my own band (drums, bass, guitars and vocals) using my omni and REW software in my old garage and Stevev’s calculations in his build.

Key elements of the draft design:

a. The slab will be 10.1m x 12.5m (100mm thick aside from deeper piers where the block walls sit) and the tin roof will have the same coverage;
b. The Hay shed frame is 150mm galvanised steel C section and under the current plan it will have no touch points with any of the walls;
c. The “outer shell” (block/concrete wall) has external dimensions of 10.0m x 10.34m - the cement blocks I'm looking at are 190mm wide and my intention is to render the outside of that wall;
d. Inside the cement block wall will be two isolated rooms – a live room and control room, both having internal dimensions of 6.1 x 4.5 x 2.9m (h). There will be a window between the two rooms – though I’ve yet to draw that in. The gap between the rooms and the inner & outer leaf and the two rooms is planned at 150mm and I intend to use Bradford Soundscreen insulation at 110mm and 24kg/m3 in the gap;
e. The middle leaf roof (that which encloses the block wall) is planned to be 2 layers of fyrchek (16mm) with green glue in the middle. Sitting on that I intend to use Bradford Soundscreen insulation. The frychek will be attached to beams that rest on top of the block wall and the extra dividing wall between the workshop and studio rooms. Green glue will be applied to the joins between fyrchek and block wall. Straight out of Stevev’s project! (without the RC). (Note that the wood framed superstructure holding the middle leaf ceiling in the drawings is a guess in terms of spacing and dimensions – I’ll take further advice from my engineering mate on those dimensions before it is finalised.)
f. The area within the block walled space not occupied by the live room and control room will be my workshop/storage area. I am intending (subject to feedback) to incorporate an additional wood studded fyrcheck wall between the storage/workshop area and the internal room walls.

Thinking behind the “additional wood studded fyrcheck wall”

Proposing this is largely to (hopefully!) avoid having to do windows and doors within that space to the TL capability of the block wall.

What this means is that I have 3 leaves on the workshop side – the inner woodstud/fyrchek leaf, the “additional wood studded fyrchek wall” and then the block wall on the very outside. The distance between the “additional wood studded fyrchek wall” and the block wall (front) is 3.675m.

I’ve framed a question below on this – my thinking is that this is the type of arrangement is the same as I’ve seen applied to basement studios where the rest of the room was being used as a laundry or for heating etc and that the 3rd leaf is a reasonable distance from the “additional wood framed fyrcheck wall”.

That said, I’m sure there is much more experience out there on the validity of this approach or how it should be modified to make it work.

I’ve attached some sketchup concept drawings that show a rough design and the start of the ceiling isolation plan – what I think will be referred to here as a middle leaf of the ceiling - and the top of the inner ceiling.

Initial think on budget is anything up to 50k but I need to close off isolation and engineering requirements before that gets firmed up.

As indicated, I have the assistance of an engineer mate of mine with respect to wall construction/ceiling loads/design.

My initial goals are to know enough about the isolation requirements/issues for the outer shell so that the regulatory approval documents don’t need later adjustment. From there I can refine the internal design in parallel with (and following) the approval process.

QUESTIONS

So what I’m looking for right now is advice on:

1. Uncovering the “holes” in my proposed design;
2. Suggestions about how to do it more efficiently/effectively;
3. The impact of having the workshop space between the internal rooms and external walls and the introduction of the “additional wood studded fyrcheck wall” to compensate.
4. Whether I have material flanking issues from:
a) having the columns of the “hayshed” inside the workshop space; and
b) while it is not planned to be the case, if the final design requires some contact between the block wall and the “Hay shed frame”

Looking forward to feedback and correction as required.

Andrew


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:42 am
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Location: Wales, UK
gearjunk1e wrote:
Hi everyone.

I am just embarking on the design phase for a 2 room studio that will include a live room and control room ...but it’s time to add some expertise to my enthusiasm!

I have been searching through the forum for relevant info and waded through (a number of times) “Build it Like a Pro” and the Master Handbook of Acoustics.

I am located just outside Orange (3 ½ hours from Sydney) and am in the process of lodging documents to gain approval to demolish my existing zincalume shed and to build a replacement, which will house both my studio and a general workshop.

The plan is to purchase and erect a zincalume (herein referred to as tin) roofed open “hay shed” erected on a concrete base and build the studio/workshop under that canopy. I’ve taken this route as it presents a more simple path for regulatory approval notwithstanding the fact that I need to do some work to bring the transmission loss performance of the roof up to that of the walls.

A lot of what I’m doing is based on Stevev’s posts on the “Dog and Bear“ build.

Isolation wise, I face very similar circumstances to the “Dog and Bear” build with expected inside measurements up to 115dB and my nearest neighbour at 25/30m – I’d like to be at 40dB by the time I hit his back wall. My inside measurements are based off my own band (drums, bass, guitars and vocals) using my omni and REW software in my old garage and Stevev’s calculations in his build.

Key elements of the draft design:

a. The slab will be 10.1m x 12.5m (100mm thick aside from deeper piers where the block walls sit) and the tin roof will have the same coverage;
b. The Hay shed frame is 150mm galvanised steel C section and under the current plan it will have no touch points with any of the walls;
c. The “outer shell” (block/concrete wall) has external dimensions of 10.0m x 10.34m - the cement blocks I'm looking at are 190mm wide and my intention is to render the outside of that wall;
d. Inside the cement block wall will be two isolated rooms – a live room and control room, both having internal dimensions of 6.1 x 4.5 x 2.9m (h). There will be a window between the two rooms – though I’ve yet to draw that in. The gap between the rooms and the inner & outer leaf and the two rooms is planned at 150mm and I intend to use Bradford Soundscreen insulation at 110mm and 24kg/m3 in the gap;
e. The middle leaf roof (that which encloses the block wall) is planned to be 2 layers of fyrchek (16mm) with green glue in the middle. Sitting on that I intend to use Bradford Soundscreen insulation. The frychek will be attached to beams that rest on top of the block wall and the extra dividing wall between the workshop and studio rooms. Green glue will be applied to the joins between fyrchek and block wall. Straight out of Stevev’s project! (without the RC). (Note that the wood framed superstructure holding the middle leaf ceiling in the drawings is a guess in terms of spacing and dimensions – I’ll take further advice from my engineering mate on those dimensions before it is finalised.)
f. The area within the block walled space not occupied by the live room and control room will be my workshop/storage area. I am intending (subject to feedback) to incorporate an additional wood studded fyrcheck wall between the storage/workshop area and the internal room walls.

Thinking behind the “additional wood studded fyrcheck wall”

Proposing this is largely to (hopefully!) avoid having to do windows and doors within that space to the TL capability of the block wall.

What this means is that I have 3 leaves on the workshop side – the inner woodstud/fyrchek leaf, the “additional wood studded fyrchek wall” and then the block wall on the very outside. The distance between the “additional wood studded fyrchek wall” and the block wall (front) is 3.675m.

I’ve framed a question below on this – my thinking is that this is the type of arrangement is the same as I’ve seen applied to basement studios where the rest of the room was being used as a laundry or for heating etc and that the 3rd leaf is a reasonable distance from the “additional wood framed fyrcheck wall”.

That said, I’m sure there is much more experience out there on the validity of this approach or how it should be modified to make it work.

I’ve attached some sketchup concept drawings that show a rough design and the start of the ceiling isolation plan – what I think will be referred to here as a middle leaf of the ceiling - and the top of the inner ceiling.

Initial think on budget is anything up to 50k but I need to close off isolation and engineering requirements before that gets firmed up.

As indicated, I have the assistance of an engineer mate of mine with respect to wall construction/ceiling loads/design.

My initial goals are to know enough about the isolation requirements/issues for the outer shell so that the regulatory approval documents don’t need later adjustment. From there I can refine the internal design in parallel with (and following) the approval process.

QUESTIONS

So what I’m looking for right now is advice on:

1. Uncovering the “holes” in my proposed design;
2. Suggestions about how to do it more efficiently/effectively;
3. The impact of having the workshop space between the internal rooms and external walls and the introduction of the “additional wood studded fyrcheck wall” to compensate.
4. Whether I have material flanking issues from:
a) having the columns of the “hayshed” inside the workshop space; and
b) while it is not planned to be the case, if the final design requires some contact between the block wall and the “Hay shed frame”

Looking forward to feedback and correction as required.

Andrew


Hi Andrew,

The "third" wall that you're concerned with is not a concern at all, it is not a third leaf due to there being a rather space between it and the outer block wall. This will actually increase your isolation in this instance. In effect, your control room and tracking room will both be isolated from the outer space around them, as well as the outside world (presuming all goes to plan). Shame not to use the whole space for the studio though, but I understand you need a workshop as well.

It all looks quite good so far, I'm assuming the tin roof will have ventilation due to the nature of its corrugations? What I am unsure of is if that will be enough ventilation to prevent condensation or if the boarded up middle leaf will need additional ventilation as well, which of course will need to be designed properly as to not compromise your isolation. If you find out how one would normally vent such a space in a residential setting then we can convert that method to be used on a studio.

The only other comment I have is regarding your choice of insulation in the cavity. There is no advantage to using specialist sound or acoustic insulation here, you can just use the cheapest, lowest density, fluffiest, itchiest insulation you can find. If the insulation that you mentioned is already cheap and easy to source then go for it, but I expect ordinary attic roll will be cheaper.

Paul


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:20 pm 
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Location: Orange, Australia
Paul

Thanks for the quick reply - I'd hoped that extra wall was OK - it seemed to make sense to me but comforting to get confirmation :)

Re ventilation - I will have to address HVAC - I need to find out from Stevev how he went with the Daikin units he installed. Its a natural starting point for me given the similarities.

On the insulation - thanks - I've used that Bradford type before for room treatment and its pretty price competitive with the fluffy but your point is well made

Andrew


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:19 am 
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Posts: 475
Location: Wales, UK
gearjunk1e wrote:
Paul

Thanks for the quick reply - I'd hoped that extra wall was OK - it seemed to make sense to me but comforting to get confirmation :)

Re ventilation - I will have to address HVAC - I need to find out from Stevev how he went with the Daikin units he installed. Its a natural starting point for me given the similarities.

On the insulation - thanks - I've used that Bradford type before for room treatment and its pretty price competitive with the fluffy but your point is well made

Andrew


I am not talking about HVAC, I'm talking about your structural venting so that it doesn't rot out. A Daikin mini split has little to do with this. Your HVAC is a separate issue that will need to be addressed as well.

Paul


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:18 pm 
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Location: Orange, Australia
Hi Paul

Thanks for following up on this.

I will admit I hadn't been particularly concerned about the ventilation into the roof space.

The reason being that I'd understood the zincalume roof was not particularly relevant in the isolation chain ie the inner room and "middle leaf" were really doing the work, so I'd thought a pretty residential standard finishing of the roof structure - for example - a an A shaped wood framed fibre cement cladding between the top of the block wall and roof line at the ends would suffice. A finish like that would provide plenty of air flow through the roof space.


Sounds like I need to rethink this :oops:

Andrew


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:01 pm 
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Location: Wales, UK
gearjunk1e wrote:
Hi Paul

Thanks for following up on this.

I will admit I hadn't been particularly concerned about the ventilation into the roof space.

The reason being that I'd understood the zincalume roof was not particularly relevant in the isolation chain ie the inner room and "middle leaf" were really doing the work, so I'd thought a pretty residential standard finishing of the roof structure - for example - a an A shaped wood framed fibre cement cladding between the top of the block wall and roof line at the ends would suffice. A finish like that would provide plenty of air flow through the roof space.


Sounds like I need to rethink this :oops:

Andrew


It might be fine, with your climate and code, I am just asking you to check it out first before it's constructed.

So let me explain a little more;

You're right, the tin roof is not part of your isolation, it is simply a rain screen to keep your two leaf system dry. The tin is not really a leaf at all.

The danger is if what you're calling your "middle leaf" roof deck ALSO reaches the same temperature as outside, as that can potentially cause interstitial condensation to form in the cavity (between the inner and outer leaf).

This is what I personally am not sure about, since I have no experience with it.

In the UK, we have cold winters and warm summers (if we're lucky). What can happen is during the winter the warm air inside the building will rise up carrying moisture from sweat, breath, water from taps, kettle steam etc. This water vapour has potential to travel through the ceiling up into the loft space and if there is no ventilation in the loft space and there is insulation between the rafters/joists, then water droplets will form on the cold underside of the roof deck behind this insulation and it will stay there with no where to go. It forms mould and rots out the timber and roof deck and this all goes on without you knowing about it since it cannot be seen, until one day the temperature changes and it all starts dripping down through the ceiling and all over the floor by which time is it too late and you have to replace the entire roof and ceiling. I know this from first hand experience unfortunately!

Now, yes, your tin is nice and ventilated, but you may be trapping moisture between your inner and outer leaf since that will be heavily insulated on the inside, but the layer of ply or OSB or whatever you will have directly under the tin will presumably be subject to the same temperature as the tin? and that layer will have to have some sort of vapour control layer on top of it before you install the tin. If that vapour control layer does not allow vapour to travel through it (such as roofing felt for example) then all the moisture will be trapped.

There are really simple ways to prevent this which won't mess up your isolation at all, but we need to find out from someone in your part of the world who specialises in building roofs so that you can propose your roof assembly to them and they can tell you if it's going to be a problem or not regarding interstitial condensation.

I've attached a diagram I've drawn of one way to do a ventilated roof and maintain isolation, at least in the UK. It might be helpful to you?

Paul

Attachment:
Cold roof assembly 2.jpg


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:34 am 
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Location: Orange, Australia
Hi everyone

I've got some further clarity on my design and compliance issues.... which revealed a nasty surprise for me :cry:

I'm trying to work out a solution - so any help would be appreciated

The issue arising is that the frames for the zincalume roof I have planned will require more substantial haunches (or knees) on the two middle frames than I'd hoped and this would mean:

a. To maintain my targeted air space, I will have to have a raked ceiling* in my inner rooms for about 600mm of the length (10%) - not a huge issue IMO - just annoying; but also, more importantly (maybe??)
b. It means my 3rd leaf definitely contacts my 2nd as the frame haunches (knees) will come through the block wall as per the attached pic
Attachment:
InkedHaunches_LI.jpg


QUESTION:
My gut feel is that the fact that the 3rd leaf is of such minimal isolation value that if I green glue around the the ingress of the haunch insertion through the block wall I won't lose isolation - but I would like to get a far more informed view of this assumption.

I'm I right or off the plantation?

Thanks in advance

Andrew
* - the height at the low point of the rake for the internal room would be 2.612m running up to the rest of the room height at 2.994m


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:28 am 
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Location: Orange, Australia
Any advice out there?

Sorry to be pushy - I know everyone has "day jobs" here and people contribute in their spare time.....but I can't work out any way to avoid have at least one knee of the frame supporting the zincalume roof coming through the outer leaf (block wall) ......without reducing the footprint of my rooms or my workshop space :(

The good news is that I have made some progress by re-engineering the design to incorporate thicker frames so I can have just one intermediate frame rather than two - but the fundamental question :?: remains whether contact between the roof supporting frame and the block wall will negatively impact isolation

I had hoped that I could resolve this "at leisure" but my engineer mate tells me I need to settle the relationship between the frame and block wall so he can finalise the footings plan for regulatory approvals

So any feedback would be gratefully received!

Andrew


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:49 pm 
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Location: Hastings, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Hello & howdo' Andrew?
I'm not certain that I have completely understood your dilemma, but if I were to summarise the problem like this, would I be close?
**The requirement for structural reinforcement of the existing roof will cause a flanking path between the middle (outer) leaf of your studio and the roof? **
Please correct me if there's something I've missed - I know that time is against you and I'm sure you'll have asked your SE if there is an alternative to using the frame haunches but if you have to go via this route, perhaps there is a way of isolating the reinforcing members where they connect with the outer wall and roof as well as the measures you have suggested (rubber mounting blocks??). As you stated, the 3rd leaf has no or little isolation value but I would consider the possibility that the flanking path might effectively turn your tin roof into a massive resonator at certain frequencies and you definitely don't want that!
It's difficult to judge without looking at your Sketchup drawing but alternatively, perhaps there is a way of building around the problem - that is to say altering the layout of the isolated space to avoid the added reinforcement? You may find that a relatively small adjustment will eliminate the problem altogether. I notice that the gap between the inner leaves of your live room and control room appear to line up with one of the joists that need to be reinforced. Maybe a vertical beam placed in the void to support the joist would obviate the need for at least one of the haunches? I hope an experienced builder will come forward with their thoughts but in the meantime I hope you figure it out and get the result you want. ATB John.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:01 pm 
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John

Thanks...you have restated the problem accurately and more efficiently than I :oops: .

I'm busy updating the sketchup diag at present but you are correct - the middle frame will now sit over the gap between the two rooms so we could drop some upright supporting columns down between the rooms to replace the knees and brace that are there now. The middle supporting frame would then look like the two end ones.

Let's see if our builders have any other perspectives

Andrew


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:25 pm 
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John

Here is what I think you were alluding to

I hope my screen shots pick it up.

I've included part of the inner leaf ceiling over one of the rooms - but I have hidden the 2nd leaf ceiling so that it is clearer where the columns will sit between the rooms. I have left the wall in that will sit between the studio rooms and my workshop.

There will need to be some fine tuning here - the gap between the rooms may need to be widened and I may need to trim the width of the rooms a little to get to 150mm gaps and to allow for the fact that my columns will all be 76mm wide and 250mm deep rather than the 50mm wide and 150mm deep as is in the ketchup model at present.

Andrew

Attachment:
Middle frame 3.jpg
Attachment:
Middle frame 2.jpg
Attachment:
Middle frame 1.jpg


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:41 am 
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Yes, that's what I was driving at Andrew, although I confess I had only considered a single upright. I'm no engineer but I would have thought two uprights would bridge the load more effectively. I don't believe that you would have to increase the air-gap between the rooms along the whole length of the wall, only around the space that the uprights occupy - if that makes sense? Looking at your screen shots made me wonder if putting two further uprights (connected to the joists at the far end of the room depicted without a ceiling) would make it possible to bridge the load of your added mass without losing any height from either room - sort of like this? (excuse the crude illustration).
Attachment:
reinforcement.png


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:23 am 
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It's a non issue - the "third leaf" is not really a leaf at all, it's just a rain screen to keep your double leaf assembly dry.

As long as none of it touches your most inner leaf for the control room or tracking room then you're good to go.

Paul


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:25 pm 
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Paulus87 wrote:
It's a non issue - the "third leaf" is not really a leaf at all, it's just a rain screen to keep your double leaf assembly dry.

As long as none of it touches your most inner leaf for the control room or tracking room then you're good to go.

Paul

Paul
Brilliant, thanks...the whole flanking thing has me spooked...I get that a common wall, frame or duct will transmit sound but beyond that it is a bit of a mystery (to me!) esp with the 3 leaves...my initial thinking was to ignore the roof and it seems I just need to hold on tight to that view
Certainly the inner walls WILL NOT have any contact
That said, it may make it slightly easier for construction purposes if I switch to having the two columns rather than the knees and brace.

BTW - I am still chasing down that "between leaf" ventilation issue you raised with my engineer mate...in Orange we do get some temperature variations - winter night temperatures down to -5 (mostly +3 to minus 3 in the depth of winter) but better to be safe than sorry
Andrew


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:11 pm 
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Quote:
...the whole flanking thing has me spooked...

Me too.
Quote:
. . . it may make it slightly easier for construction purposes if I switch to having the two columns rather than the knees and brace.

Which is a good reason to consider it.
Let us know where you land Andrew.

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