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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:05 pm
Posts: 3
Location: Atlanta GA
Finally. Got the go ahead for the garage conversion. Read Rod Gervais, awesome and thank you.

1st post.

Pertinent Info:

Project studio is recreational use. Full band recording including drum set, trumpets, baritones, Acoustic and electric guitars, bass and vocals. Neighbors are roughly 50 ft away on each side but I have woods out back. Garage is attached to the house so isolation interest is for the sleeping wife, while tracking is happening at 2 in the morning.

I apologize for the newb sketch. Currently the garage has an attached storage (Green, going forward referred to as closet). There is a wood frame and drywall just on one side (interior of the garage side, delineated on the sketch). The siding of the garage is wood bevel. The closet has a slanted ceiling going from 8' 4.5" to 7' 8" (slanting away from the doors).

Plans are to setup room within a room in the main garage space, and build around the tracks of the garage (Garage doors are the same size). The closet will be iso clips-channel and green glue, 5/8 and 1/2. Mixing will not be done at extremely high levels

My main dilemma is where to put the mixing console. I am almost positive I want to setup a vocal booth in the corner of the closet furthest away from the garage doors, and I would love to have a separate control room (also in the closet). The problems are obviously the dimensions.

Questions:

1. Do I just scrap the idea of a control room and setup the mixing console in the live room?

2. If possible to acoustically deaden the control room enough to avoid any issues how do I arrange it? I understand from reading posts and Rod's book that it may be best to orient it so the speakers are pointing the long way down, but given the slanted ceiling, symmetry could only be achieved by setting up on the wall with the doors facing the short back wall.

Please assume for now that I don't want to tear down the existing wall and reconfigure the closets layout. I am not opposed to the idea but I want to see what I can do with what I have at the moment.

3. That being said, if it would be more beneficial to just tear down the closet and expand the room within a room please just let me know.

Budget will be between $5-10k. Less on construction more and gear, so less is more.

You guys are amazing. Thanks in advance, and if I missed anything please let me know.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:18 am 
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Location: Atlanta GA
Just re-read post requirements - Don't have a decibel meter but going to buy one now.

Sorry - will update when I measure


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
Hi there "lamball123", and Welcome! :)

Quote:
Full band recording including drum set, trumpets, baritones, Acoustic and electric guitars, bass and vocals. ... Garage is attached to the house so isolation interest is for the sleeping wife, while tracking is happening at 2 in the morning.
:shock: You sure do know how to set the goal high for yourself, don't you! :) So you need very high levels of isolation, and you are on a shared structure. OK, this is a nice challenge! I'm up for it, if you are!!

Quote:
Mixing will not be done at extremely high levels
OK, but tracking live drums can't exactly be done at quite levels! A typical acoustic kit easily hits 115 dB, played reasonably hard. Add in the other instruments you mention, and the total level in your live room could be closing in on 120 dB. That's pretty hard to get down to "sleeping wife" levels, regardless of how quite your actual mixing is, in the CR. The CR isn't the problem: The LR is.

Quote:
My main dilemma is where to put the mixing console. I am almost positive I want to setup a vocal booth in the corner of the closet furthest away from the garage doors, and I would love to have a separate control room (also in the closet). The problems are obviously the dimensions.
There's no way that you can fit a usable CR into a 4 foot width. Sorry. However, with a full 2-car garage and a closet on one end, there certainly is space for a decent sized control room and a decent size live room. It can be done: start by ripping out the closet and the door tracks, and taking the interior down to bare bones. That will give you enough space to do what you need to do.

Quote:
1. Do I just scrap the idea of a control room and setup the mixing console in the live room?
Some people do that, but I never would for my own studio. When I'm trying I need to hear the drums on the CR monitors, all by themselves, without also hearing the drums directly. So for me at least, I prefer two rooms.

Quote:
2. If possible to acoustically deaden the control room enough to avoid any issues how do I arrange it?
A control room cannot be acoustically dead. It must only ever be acoustically neutral. That's one of the key goals in designing a control room: to make it as neutral as it possibly can be, given the limitations imposed by the room dimensions.

Quote:
best to orient it so the speakers are pointing the long way down,
Right! That gives you the longest possible delay for reflections from the rear wall getting back to your ears, which should be greater than 20ms to avoid the Haas effect issues.

Quote:
but given the slanted ceiling, symmetry could only be achieved by setting up on the wall with the doors facing the short back wall.
Why do you want to slant your ceiling? If your roof trusses are installed correctly, then the ceiling should end up flat.

Quote:
Please assume for now that I don't want to tear down the existing wall and reconfigure the closets layout. I am not opposed to the idea but I want to see what I can do with what I have at the moment.
If the closet stays as a closet, then you can still do two rooms, but they will have to be smaller. And given the shape of the remaining area, you might be better off using a "corner control room" design.

Quote:
3. That being said, if it would be more beneficial to just tear down the closet and expand the room within a room please just let me know.
Yup! :yahoo: :thu: That is, indeed, the best way to do it.

Quote:
Budget will be between $5-10k. Less on construction more and gear, so less is more.
Ummm... even if you spend the entire 10k on construction, nothing at all on gear, you'd probably still be a lot short. You seem to have about a 21' by 17' space, from what I can see on your sketch. That's nearly 370 ft2. 10k works out to about $ 27 / ft2. It costs about US$ 5 per ft2 to install drywall ceilings in a studio (2 layers of 5/8" fire-rated, mud, tape and hermetic sealing), so your ceiling drywall alone is going to be about US$ 1800. That does not include the joists, insulation, or anything else: just the materials and labor for 370 ft2 of typical studio ceiling for the level of isolation you are talking about. So there's nearly 20% of your budget gone on the ceiling, without even considering the walls, doors, windows, floor, electrical, or HVAC. HVAC alone could easily eat up 50% of your budget. So I'd suggest that you should rethink your budget.

Quote:
Don't have a decibel meter but going to buy one now.
Yep! You'll need one of those too! Please post the measurements as soon as you have them: That's the starting point for figuring out the type of construction you'll need, and therefore also for budgeting more accurately.


- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:05 pm
Posts: 3
Location: Atlanta GA
Soundman thanks so much for the detailed reply.

You were right. My eyes definitely were bigger than my stomach. After about a year an a half of battling I was finally able to get my wife to agree to the budget and the build, but with compromises come restrictions. The current house is not our forever home and the biggest concern is selling the home in the next 3-5 years. I need to be able to tear down whatever I put up relatively easily. That means that the cost to benefit analysis has changed, and really put room within a room out of the question.

Updated Pertinent Info:

The garage is finished with drywall, cement slab, and no insolation. The closet's interior is unfinished and wood frame is exposed (drywall just on the side facing the inside of the garage). Red are windows.

Currently a snare drum hit is reading around 98db when a meter (iphone app so measurement may be.....relatively accurate) is placed right outside the garage door, and 92 when placed right outside the window. A kick drum is registering around 93 and 90 respectively.

The the attic above the garage is a low pitched roof (Roughly 5' at the point) with a truss design. Currently it has no insulation what so ever.

The New Problem:

The extent of the build can only be a framed wall in front of the garage door (if absolutely necessary, tear down existing drywall and redo with genie clips etc). Air conditioning and air flow will be taken care of by linking to the duct system.

So my thoughts:

- Remove garage door tracks and seal garage door. Build the wall 2-3 feet in front of the garage door using 5/8 drywall -> green glue -> 1/2 drywall (I know the ratio is not ideal but I hope to control the modes around 40-50 with tons of traps). Insulate the new wall's frame with Roxul.

Roxul on both the inner sides of the closet and use a black speaker cloth to enclose the insulation (to avoid a 3 or 4 leaf setup).

Finally roxul the attic above the garage.

This will give me mass + space on 3 of the 5 walls/ceiling

The questions-

- 1. The garage door -
---After roaming posts for hours I came across this thread where Rod describes what he did with two garage doors (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/880040-need-sound-proof-much-possible-garage-door-wall-my-garage-thoughts.html). Can anyone help me understand exactly what this would look like, and how do I could treat the doors to create even more mass beyond just the 3 inches of roxul between the studs of the new wall's frame?

---Is it worth the green glue (or even potentially genie clip and hat channel) given that there will be no treatment (other than bass traps) on 2 of the 4 walls of the garage?

- 2. Generally -

---After reading Rods book its obvious that a leaky system renders little if any reduction. I am currently occupying 2 rooms of the upper floor of my home (office = control room -- bedroom (14'-11') = pseudo live room), and the noise doesn't disturb the neighbors until later in the night (its a well sealed brick home), but bugs the hell out of the wife, especially when sessions go for more than 4-5 hours or late into the night. The move would give me more space, a vocal/iso booth (the closet), separate entrance/exit, and an opportunity to work later (if I can get enough of a reduction in dbs).
-------As it stands would the steps I've mentioned help enough to make the space workable db wise?
-------How much of a difference would ripping out all the existing drywall and redoing the finish with genie clips/channel make?

- 3. Recommendations -
---Anything you think worth the effort given the constraints and the fact that everything I do will have to be torn down in 3-5 years.

Thanks in advance, and I wouldn't have even known where to start with this build without this forum's help.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 12034
Location: Santiago, Chile
wow! A blast from the past!

It's good to see you back again.

Quote:
I need to be able to tear down whatever I put up relatively easily.
... or build it so that it can be re-used as something that adds value to the house, such as a home theater, or music room... :)

Quote:
The garage is finished with drywall, cement slab, and no insolation.
Slab is good, drywall on the inside is bad (you already have two leaves), no insulation is bad. Your options are VERY limited if you don't do a proper "room in a room".

Quote:
Currently a snare drum hit is reading around 98db when a meter (iphone app so measurement may be.....relatively accurate)
Probably not accurate at all, but it can give you a very rough idea.

Quote:
...is placed right outside the garage door, and 92 when placed right outside the window.
OK, but how loud was that snare hit with the mic placed three feet away from the snare itself, INSIDE the room? Without know that, we can't calculate how much isolation you are getting.

Quote:
A kick drum is registering around 93 and 90 respectively.
Ditto. Without knowing how loud that kick was inside the room, there's no way of seeing what your current isolation level is.

Please repeat those tests, but first take a reading three feet from the drum kit, then while playing at the exact same level, take other readings in various places around the yard and inside the house.

Quote:
The the attic above the garage is a low pitched roof (Roughly 5' at the point) with a truss design. Currently it has no insulation what so ever.
Is there any ceiling up there, between the garage and the attic space? Or can you see all the way up through the trusses while standing down in the garage?

Quote:
The extent of the build can only be a framed wall in front of the garage door (if absolutely necessary, tear down existing drywall and redo with genie clips etc)
That will work. It's enough to get reasonable isolation, but not high isolation. Maybe close to 50 dB isolation, if you do it very well. When you have the drywall off the framing, you will also need to "beef up" the other side, in between the studs, with strips of drywall cut to fit the stud bay. If you are careful taking off the old drywall, and don't damage it tool much, you can use that to do the "beefing up".

Quote:
Air conditioning and air flow will be taken care of by linking to the duct system.
Great. So all you will need to add is the silencer boxes, ducts, fans and registers. The critical part of that is the silencer boxes.

Quote:
- Remove garage door tracks and seal garage door
Yes!

Quote:
Build the wall 2-3 feet in front of the garage door
Yes! Or build it closer to the door if you want. You only need a small gap there: one foot would be more than enough.

Quote:
using 5/8 drywall -> green glue -> 1/2 drywall
You'd be better off doing two layers of 5/8, instead of one 5/8" plus one 1/2".

Quote:
(I know the ratio is not ideal but I hope to control the modes around 40-50 with tons of traps).
Why are you only interested in those modes, and not the rest? And are you sure you will even have any modes in that range?

Quote:
Insulate the new wall's frame with Roxul.
Yes! Density of around 50 kg/m3 (3 pcf)


Quote:
Finally roxul the attic above the garage.
YEs, but do take care not to block the ventilation path from the eaves up to the ridge vent.

Quote:
This will give me mass + space on 3 of the 5 walls/ceiling
You didn't mention the existing ceiling, or how you are going to beef that up to get good mass.

Quote:
I came across this thread where Rod describes what he did with two garage doors ... Can anyone help me understand exactly what this would look like,
You already have the right idea: build a new wall across in front of the door, single leaf, good mass, sealed. That's about it. As Rod said: "You most probably can get away with a single wall - just make sure to seal all of the edges and keep adding layers of mass until you reach your desired level of isolation." Yup!

Quote:
and how do I could treat the doors to create even more mass beyond just the 3 inches of roxul between the studs of the new wall's frame?
A photo of the inside of the doors would help to answer that. You might not be able to do what Rod said, but I wouldn't be too worried if that's the case, since you aren't shooting for extreme isolation. (And you can safely ignore the "unusual" advice given by Boggy, just like everyone else over there did... :) )

Rod said: "applying a layer of 3/4" plywood to the inside face of the door panels to tie it all together". That's the part you might be able to skip, but lets see the photos first, and talk about your isolation goals.

Next: " then 2 layers of sealed 5/8" drywall - then an insulated stud frame........ Right. That is an "inside out" wall: the drywall faces the cavity, and the studs face the room. Smart move.

Next: "the doors can be removed - turned into a single panel and then stood up " Those are the garage doors he is talking about, and this is the step you can probably skip.

Next: "the wall can be framed lying down - sheathed with the drywall - stood up and slid into place ". Right. Standard procedure for doing an "inside out" wall.

Next: "then caulked/sealed at the perimeter". Yes! Always!

Quote:
---Is it worth the green glue (or even potentially genie clip and hat channel) given that there will be no treatment (other than bass traps) on 2 of the 4 walls of the garage?
I'm not sure I understand you: we didn't get to treatment yet. That's an entirely different thing from isolation. Unrelated. First you have to isolate your room, on all sides and the ceiling, to the same level. Then you can think about what treatment will be needed, and where to put it. Isolation is not treatment, and treatment is not isolation. They are two entirely separate and unrelated aspects of acoustics.

So your next step is to complete the isolation on those other two walls. If you don't do that, then you wasted an awful lot of time and money to get to this point, since it is all worthless unless you complete the job!

Quote:
---After reading Rods book its obvious that a leaky system renders little if any reduction.
Right!

Quote:
The move would give me more space, a vocal/iso booth (the closet), separate entrance/exit, and an opportunity to work later
That seems to be what every studio owner wants! And it can be done, if you design correctly, then build correctly.

Quote:
(if I can get enough of a reduction in dbs).
... which takes us back to that all-important, most basic question: How much of that do you need? What is your number?

Quote:
-------As it stands would the steps I've mentioned help enough to make the space workable db wise?
That's like asking: "If I have a piece of string, will it be long enough?" First you'd have to say how long the string is that you have, then yo'd have to say how long you need it to be... and suddenly the answer will be crystal clear!!! 8)

Quote:
-------How much of a difference would ripping out all the existing drywall and redoing the finish with genie clips/channel make?
That is the key everything. If you do NOT do that, then you get pretty much no useful isolation at all. If you DO do that, then you can get a lot of isolation, approaching 50 dB. But you have to do it all around, on all four walls, not just two of them.

Quote:
Thanks in advance, and I wouldn't have even known where to start with this build without this forum's help.



:thu:

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


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