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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:07 pm 
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took-the-red-pill wrote:
1-It seems to me from this thread, and others, that when choosing to soffitt mount speakers one assumes certain things:

a) That one owns a medium to large set of 'farfield speakers.'. They are best soffitt mounted, as they will sound better that way. They are designed to function at a greater distance from the listener.

b) That one owns a second set of 'nearfield monitors,' like NS-10's or similar, which one uses for the bulk of mixing. They are typically to be free standing, placed very close to the engineer, like 3-4 feet away, in locations such that the egineer's head, and the two speakers, form an equilateral triangle.

Therefore, if I ONLY have a set of nearfield monitors(I have Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Pro Actives, in a modest home studio), it sounds like I would simply place them on my desk, or console, and postion them at ear level. And I would save the soffitt mounting idea for the day if, and when, I buy a set of far-fileds.

Am I correct in this, or is my train off the rails???


Yes you are off the rails. Just as an obvious example, the speakers in the several posts immediately above your post are in comparison to your speakers smaller:

14"x12.5"x8" Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Pro Active
13"x11"x7" Adam A7

Quote:
2-I've come across a few references here to soffitt mounting boosting the bass. I think 6dB is the amount that's been mentioned. If that's the case, then in theory, this addition of extra bass would not be giving a completely flat, or true representation of the mix.

a) Is THAT a true statement?

b) If so, then one would need to address it. Would it be simplest to dial up an EQ in the master, find out where that spike is, attenuate it, and then use that EQ setting each time one employed the soffitt mount speakers?


Every speaker system should be setup for optimum performance in its location. If your speakers do not have sufficient adjustment, build
Barefoot's eq circuit, detailed in the speakers section

Quote:
A comment. Regarding soffitt mounting a set of powered speakers: It seems to me that it's a big pain to soffitt mount them, and then have to create airflow for venting and such.

On my powered speakers, all the guts are located on a panel on the back of the speaker. Seems to me the simplest thing would be to remove that panel, mount it on the front of the soffitt somewhere(or wherever you want), and then run wires from it to the speakers.


That is what I would do.

Andre

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:48 am 
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took-the-red-pill wrote:
A comment. Regarding soffitt mounting a set of powered speakers: It seems to me that it's a big pain to soffitt mount them, and then have to create airflow for venting and such.

Keith


Hey Keith,

That is addressed with one of Johns designs on page one(1) of this same thread. He shows an air flow area that suggests powered speakers can be soffit mounted.

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:28 am 
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took-the-red-pill wrote:
1-It seems to me from this thread, and others, that when choosing to soffitt mount speakers one assumes certain things:

a) That one owns a medium to large set of 'farfield speakers.'. They are best soffitt mounted, as they will sound better that way. They are designed to function at a greater distance from the listener.

b) That one owns a second set of 'nearfield monitors,' like NS-10's or similar, which one uses for the bulk of mixing. They are typically to be free standing, placed very close to the engineer, like 3-4 feet away, in locations such that the egineer's head, and the two speakers, form an equilateral triangle.

Therefore, if I ONLY have a set of nearfield monitors(I have Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Pro Actives, in a modest home studio), it sounds like I would simply place them on my desk, or console, and postion them at ear level. And I would save the soffitt mounting idea for the day if, and when, I buy a set of far-fileds.

Am I correct in this, or is my train off the rails???

That is EXACTLY what I was talking about. I'm not a fan of mounting NEARfields since the distance is usually to great from speaker to ear. You can't call it nearfield anymore.

So, YES, as far as I'm concerned you are correct, Keith. But hell, every one does it so I must be the fool...


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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:47 am 
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Ro wrote:
I'm not a fan of mounting NEARfields since the distance is usually to great from speaker to ear. You can't call it nearfield anymore.


Please explain. Nearfield/farfield refers to distances where the room ambience is greater than the direct sound.

Using as a hypothetical example a 12x15x8' room treated to EBU specs, the critical distance is ~12'. With flush mounting the radiator Q becomes 2 because it is radiating into a 2π space. working 38% back on the long dimension places the listener ~6' from the speakers. with the increased speaker loading from the baffle, low end distortion is reduced permitting greater output countering any loss of level from the greater distance.

Andre

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:48 am 
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Quote:
That is EXACTLY what I was talking about. I'm not a fan of mounting NEARfields since the distance is usually to great from speaker to ear. You can't call it nearfield anymore.


I guess it all depends on what your definition of "near" field is. I've seen different definitions from different speaker manufacturers, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of agreement. Is 2m "near"? 3m? 5m? 1m? Does it depend on the room dimensions? Where do you draw the line between "near" and mid? And the other line between "mid" and "far"? Does that line depend on speaker size, or is it a fixed distance, regardless of speaker dimensions? I'd really like to see some science on this subject. What exactly makes it a "near field" monitor, anyway? I mean, in what way is it different from a "mid" field monitor? I bet if you ask half a dozen manufacturers of near-field monitors, you'll get half a dozen different answers. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:35 am 
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Lots of re arranging in quotes. the original quoted text is in the post immediately above.


Soundman2020 wrote:
I've seen different definitions from different speaker manufacturers, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of agreement. I bet if you ask half a dozen manufacturers of near-field monitors, you'll get half a dozen different answers. . .


That is confusing acoustics with advertising.

Quote:
Where do you draw the line between "near" and mid? And the other line between "mid" and "far"? I mean, in what way is it different from a "mid" field monitor?


A "mid field" monitor is advertising speak. there is no definition for such a thing.

Quote:
I guess it all depends on what your definition of "near" field is. Is 2m "near"? 3m? 5m? 1m? I'd really like to see some science on this subject.


Near field is clearly scientifically defined as the space where the sum of the direct and indirect room ambience together is dominated by the direct sound. It is a function of the source q and reverberation in the space. Small rooms are dominated by modal effects.

For further reading seeJBL Pro Sound System Design Manual pt 1 pdf pages 50 - 58. this document has a rich history. The latest versions were edited by John Eargle. The original was written by George Augsburger. Two giants in the field of control room acoustics.

Quote:
What exactly makes it a "near field" monitor, anyway?


Designed for use in a 4π field. Usually to give a good sound at close distances also. Close meaning set near the meter bridge of a console, etc. They still sound good further away.

Andre

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:10 am 
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I should have know that André would have the answer! :thu:

OK, more research! Thanks for the link, Andre.

Quote:
That is confusing acoustics with advertising.

Yup, that's for sure! If only half of what some manufacturers say was actually true, all the others would be out of business in a week...


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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:13 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
OK, more research! Thanks for the link, Andre.


You are welcome. I was debating in my head which, if any link to provide for further information when I remembered that you enjoy knowing the complete truth. That made it then just a question of how technical an answer to link to. The JBL doc is geared towards sound reinforcement, but the underlying principles are the same in control room design. I hope you enjoy it.

Andre


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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:23 pm 
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AVare wrote:
Yes you are off the rails. Just as an obvious example, the speakers in the several posts immediately above your post are in comparison to your speakers smaller:


Okay, but I read this:

barefoot wrote:
The most critical aspect of soffit mounting is making sure the monitors are properly designed to work in such an application. Most nearfields and a good deal of midfields are not.
Thomas


Then I read this:

John Sayers wrote:
Quote:
for some reason, no matter how nice the soffits, it all ends up with NS10's on the console bridge


:D - actually there is a reason for that. Nearfield mixing is easier on the ears over time but you still need a good soffit system to check the low end as NS10 roll off at 100hz.

A nice combination I had once in a studio was NS10s nearfield, NS1000s soffit mounted.


Then I read this:

Ro wrote:
The funny thing is; These monitors are called "near fields" which basically mean they create a field near the monitor. The best listening point is within that field, which is near the monitor.

Soffit mounting them makes the distance usually bigger than those monitors were build for. So be careful while spacing them away from your desk.


I certainly don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, or start a war, but these statements led me to believe that the recommended idea was: nearfields up close, and big ones in the soffits, IF you own both.

However, if for sure my speakers will sound better, then I'm all in. I was just checking.

One more thought

AVare wrote:
Quote:
What exactly makes it a "near field" monitor, anyway?


Designed for use in a 4π field. Usually to give a good sound at close distances also. Close meaning set near the meter bridge of a console, etc. They still sound good further away.

Andre


Question:
Would one be correct in in expanding on your statement to say:

"They still sound good further away..." but only if the acoustics of the room are good?

A greater distance from the listener to the speaker intruduces more ambient sound from the room at listening position.

If my room has issues, due to it being designed and built by an amateur such as myself, I would think that I would be in danger of adding a lot of 'nasties' to the sound I'm hearing in mix position.

Is THAT a fair statement?


Regarding the 6dB boost in the bass:

AVare wrote:
Every speaker system should be setup for optimum performance in its location. If your speakers do not have sufficient adjustment, build
Barefoot's eq circuit, detailed in the speakers section


On further evaluation, the Wharfedales do have a "6 dB per octave filter" that might do the trick.

Question:
But if not, is the EQ option, on the master bus, at least an option?

Thanks for all the input. This helps a lot to clarify.
Keith

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:14 am 
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Thanks for the (good) lengthy explanation of your thought process.

Quote:
Question:
Would one be correct in in expanding on your statement to say:

"They still sound good further away..." but only if the acoustics of the room are good?


Yes. You have the resources here and at other websites to build a first class control room. Read and ask questions. People here and at other websites are very helpful if it shows that you are learning.

One strong suggestion is to create one thread on one site with all your main questions for your room. Trying to keep track of what was posted on one site and replying on another with that information is a daunting task.

Quote:
Question:
But if not, is the EQ option, on the master bus, at least an option?


An awkward option. Better to put the eq on the monitor circuit so that every time you select those monitors, the system is automatically set up.

Andre

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:46 am 
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AVare wrote:
One strong suggestion is to create one thread on one site with all your main questions for your room. Trying to keep track of what was posted on one site and replying on another with that information is a daunting task.
Andre


Understood. I normally try to do that, but it seemed to fit here, since this is like the mother of all Soffit mounting threads. Hopefully others can benefit from the clarifications.

Back to your originally scheduled program, folks.

K

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:06 am 
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Quote:
You are welcome. I was debating in my head which, if any link to provide for further information when I remembered that you enjoy knowing the complete truth. That made it then just a question of how technical an answer to link to. The JBL doc is geared towards sound reinforcement, but the underlying principles are the same in control room design. I hope you enjoy it.

Andre

It is GREAT André! I actually do a fair amount of sound reinforcement as well, running live sound for events, so that JBL document is really useful.

And yeah, I sure do enjoy knowing the complete truth, and understanding the theory behind the practice! So thanks a million again!. Like you say, the document is a bit technical, but nothing too complex by the looks of it, and a lot of it I knew already- But there are always new gems to discover, always the possibilty of learning something that you didn't know before.

I'm really enjoying working my way through it!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:51 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
But there are always new gems to discover, always the possibilty of learning something that you didn't know before.


That is so true. Once you know the basics, a lot of documents are "variations on a theme" or developments based on the basics.

The PSSDM is in two parts. The second part is in the same general area of the url. The big thing that I learned from the PSSDM was when working with absorbent materials not only to think of what is absorbed, but of what is reflected! A mind think I see very rarely mentioned in acoustic treatment. Thank you George Augsburger.

Andre

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:49 pm 
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Thanks again, Andre! I found, downloaded, and read that second part. I'm curious about their recommendations for room EQ, on page 6-17, graph 6-17 "B". Why would you want to have a 3dB/octave roll-off above 1kHz? I guess I could almost understand it if they are only talking about systems for speech, but I can't see the logic of doing that for music. Could you shed some light on their recommendation?

Anyway, the good news is that my Adam A7s and SUB-8 finally arrived last week, so I'm looking forward to playing with them this week! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Soffit mounting?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
I'm curious about their recommendations for room EQ, on page 6-17, graph 6-17 "B". Why would you want to have a 3dB/octave roll-off above 1kHz? I guess I could almost understand it if they are only talking about systems for speech, but I can't see the logic of doing that for music. Could you shed some light on their recommendation?


The section is dealing with the obsolete method of using a RTA type measurement tool and compensating for the reverberant field which is dominated by the power response of the speakers and the acoustics of the space. Modern sound re enforcement systems are equalized using FFT analyzers which permit looking the direct output of the speaker system, not the direct and reverberant field combined. The paragraph on the bottom right of the page may make more sense now.

Quote:
At the point in the house where the measurement is made, the reverberant field At the point in the housepredominates, and what we are shaping with the equalizer is actually the power response of the loudspeaker as influenced by boundary absorption in the room. If the loudspeaker’s power response is smooth to begin with, then all is well. However, if, as in some older designs, the system’s power response is irregular, then equalization will usually make things worse,


Quote:
Anyway, the good news is that my Adam A7s and SUB-8 finally arrived last week, so I'm looking forward to playing with them this week! :)
[/quote][/quote]

Fantastic! Let us know how they sound!

Andre

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