John Sayers' Design Forum

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

A World of Experience
Click Here for Information on John's Services
It is currently Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:41 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
Hello friends -

My time has finally come, and I'm getting ready to start building my first studio from scratch. I've purchased some land out in the country, with hopes of building a great recording studio, and taking my audio production to the next level.

Needless to say, I've been giving the design some HUGE consideration. My research for this project has been a lot of forum posts and studio design websites. I also purchased and read "Home Recording Studio, Build it like the pros" by Rod Gervals. After massing as much information as I could, I've come up with the design attached to this post. I tried to include all relevant details in the image.

I guess what I'm looking for is another set of eyes on my design to identify potential problems, and suggestions on how it could be done better (Save some cash?). Let me know if you need any more information.

Cheers - you rock guys.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:40 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 12007
Location: Santiago, Chile
Hi there " ritteraf", And Welcome! :)

Quote:
I guess what I'm looking for is another set of eyes on my design to identify potential problems, and suggestions on how it could be done better
Save cash by NOT putting those angles on the live room walls! Unnecessary. It's a myth that you MUST have non-parallel walls. Just make the room rectangular, and treat accordingly. You are wasting space like that, and also complicating the construction unnecessarily. Building four straight walls with 90° angles is already hard enough: building TWELVE offset walls (!), all with different angles, is exponentially harder.

However: there is no isolation here! Or rather, there isn't very much: maybe 35 dB or so, with luck 40. The rooms are not isolated from each other, and they are not isolated from the outside world either! You need to fix that. Search the forum for "full decoupled two-leaf MSM system". Yes, you do mention a staggered-stud wall on the image, but that won't give you much isolation. Far better to go with a proper 2-leaf system on separate frames.

Also:

1) Your head appears to be in the middle of the room: not a good location. Try something closer to 1/3 of the distance between the front and rear walls.

2) Your speakers are on the corner centerlines: that should be avoided. Move them closer together, and change the toe-in angle if necessary (the equilateral triangle thing is also somewhat of a myth...)

3) Your speaker soffits are too small: the general rule is that they need to be about four times wider than the speaker itself (minimum 3x), and the speaker should be slightly offset on the baffle: not in the middle.

4) Your soffits are not deep enough. I don't see you being able to put decent sized speakers in there.

5) What is the room in front of the CR? DO you need it? Your CR is only about 150 ft2, and the minimum recommended floor area for a critical listening room is 215 ft2, so increasing the size of the CR would be good, if you can.

6) The desk is probably too large: downsize that as much as you can. Desks are not friendly to room acoustics.

7) The window between CR and LR is too far forward: it is directly at the first reflection point for the speakers. Move it further back, and angle it a little.

There's more, but I'm out of time for now...

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
Thanks soundman for the reply! I especially appreciate your advice on removing the angled walls. As you know, there is a lot of contradicting info out there. I guess maybe what I was thinking was that the angles would create corner bass traps for the live room.

1. Make sense - I've seen a couple of layout diagrams where the speaker positioning tries to hit between the person at the desk and the people listening behind. I guess I was going for that, which hit right in the middle of the room
2. Man - I've seen so many sites say the equilateral triangle setup is cannon, but I'll take the advice from a guy working in the real world
3. Never heard that info before. Will definitely implement.
4. Will add this change
5. The room in front of the CR is my best attempt at having an isolation room, while preserving the modal ratios of the CR and live room. Can you think of a better way to set this up for a iso room? How important is it that I remain true to the room mode ratios?
6. Roger that
7. Can absolutely do now that I'm removing my angled walls.

I'll try to get these suggestions in and do an update post tomorrow.


Last edited by ritteraf on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
One more quick question. If I do the full decoupled double leaf wall system, do I need to have two doors at every entry/exit point? Would using a single door with a deep frame couple the walls together so much that the STR is lost? I guess the same question also applies to outside windows in the space. Also - the build is being done in the country, well off even the nearest country road. That being said, I'm really not concerned about outside sound sources getting in. The diagram I posted is not the full structure, just the studio section. I can post that if you'd like to see, but the garage and "car pull up" area is on the complete opposite side of the structure for that very reason.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:45 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 972
Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
5. The room in front of the CR is my best attempt at having an isolation room, while preserving the modal ratios of the CR and live room.

Do you require an ISO room and a live room? Or could you do your projects with just a control room and live room? Note, with variable acoustic devices you could have a more "dead" (shorter RT60) sound in your live room for things like vocal recording.

Quote:
Can you think of a better way to set this up for a iso room?

Yes. I'd play with a layout like Franks where you have a corner control room maybe?

Quote:
How important is it that I remain true to the room mode ratios?

As long as your room ratios don't fail on Bob Gold's Room Mode Calculator website, you'll be fine.

Minimum recommended size for your control room is important though. So increase your control room size no matter what.

Quote:
If I do the full decoupled double leaf wall system, do I need to have two doors at every entry/exit point?

Even though there are often exceptions in the studio design/build world, I will keep it simple and say yes. You do need a door in each leaf. The door must match the surface density of the leaf and since seals are the weakest link, it's recommended to have at least 2 seals around the door. For the bottom of the door, you can have 1 permanently fixed seal as well as an automatic door bottom.

Quote:
Would using a single door with a deep frame couple the walls together so much that the STR is lost?

Yep. Plus, in order to have the same amount of isolation as your MSM wall system would have, your door would have to be insanely thick and massive. It's not a realistic solution. Just do two doors and know that it'll be awesome.

Quote:
I guess the same question also applies to outside windows in the space.

100%. Surface density and great seals. Laminated glass. One in each leaf.

Quote:
I'm really not concerned about outside sound sources getting in.

So you're okay having a paying client over tracking vocals during a storm that will cause you to continually re-record vocal performances because rain and thunder sounds are ruining the takes? Do you not have anyone else living at your place that might be running water or watching TV or listening to music or mowing the lawn? -- all things that will get into your recording space if you don't have isolation. What about when your furnace turns on?

Having said that, you haven't mentioned HVAC yet. With those low ceilings, what's your plan for silencer boxes and duct work? Are you having a separate air handler unit? How will you zone it for the 2 or 3 recording rooms?

Quote:
The diagram I posted is not the full structure, just the studio section. I can post that if you'd like to see, but the garage and "car pull up" area is on the complete opposite side of the structure for that very reason.

I'd love to see the full diagram. In your current diagram, I don't like that you have to go through the live room to get to the ISO room. I'm sure there is a reason for your current design, but hopefully we can come up with something a bit better.

Lastly, I'd like to suggest that you do your drawings in SketchUp Make because we are all familiar with how it should look and therefore won't need legends to try and read your drawing. Furthermore, I'd suggest you draw the framing in more detail so that you can actually see where your walls will touch one another. Trust me, doing it this way will help you see any flaws in your MSM system.

I look forward to seeing your progress!

Greg

_________________
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
Quote:
Yes. I'd play with a layout like Franks where you have a corner control room maybe?

Actually, of all my various layout versions, I've found a corner control room works best from a flat layout perspective. That being said, I've scrapped every one of them because the ceiling slopes from left to right, so any corner control room will have a sloping ceiling at a strange angle. I've read a bunch of places that it is critical in the control room to make everything a mirror layout. I suppose I could have the builder put in a "faux" ceiling in the CR to make it not slope.

Quote:
a layout like Franks

Sorry, I'm new here :) Would you mind linking to his layout? I don't know Frank :)

Quote:
As long as your room ratios don't fail on Bob Gold's Room Mode Calculator website, you'll be fine.

I love that website. God bless that man.

Quote:
Minimum recommended size for your control room is important though. So increase your control room size no matter what.

Roger that

Quote:
You do need a door in each leaf

Roger that

Quote:
Laminated glass. One in each leaf.

Make sense, like the doors. Is there any solution out there that would allow for the opening of the windows to let in fresh air, or are fixed fully sealed windows pretty much what I'm going to need?

Quote:
rain and thunder sounds

Yikes, the thought of that had not even crossed my mind. Point taken.

Quote:
running water or watching TV

I'm designing the structure with the idea that there will not be necessary to run water at all through the studio portion of the structure. The lounge area will definitely be cornered off.

Quote:
What about when your furnace turns on?

Quote:
Having said that, you haven't mentioned HVAC yet.

As far as heating the structure, it will be build on a concrete slab, with no basement. My builder has informed me that normally in this situation, they install a boiler with piping running through the concrete slab. The boiler heats water, that in turn heats the slab, which heats the whole house without the need for a furnace. No moving air. Obviously, that only deals with heating, cooling is another issue. He told me he has a noiseless solution for that as well, which I'm waiting for details on.

Quote:
I'd love to see the full diagram.

I didn't have time to try any new configurations yet, but I'll take a screen shot of the full structure anyway to give you an idea of the proposed layout.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:55 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 972
Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
I suppose I could have the builder put in a "faux" ceiling in the CR to make it not slope.

You'd probably have to put in a flat ceiling anyway and use the area above it to house your silencer boxes.

Quote:
Sorry, I'm new here :) Would you mind linking to his layout? I don't know Frank :)

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21368

Quote:
I love that website. God bless that man.

Amen.

Quote:
Make sense, like the doors. Is there any solution out there that would allow for the opening of the windows to let in fresh air, or are fixed fully sealed windows pretty much what I'm going to need?

Your HVAC, if designed properly, will give you more than enough fresh air and comfortable temperature/humidity to never need to open a window.

Personally, I don't think I've ever seen anyone design a window that opens in their studio space. I know it's possible though. Like sliding patio style doors, special acoustic ones have a mechanism that pulls the door into a seal after it reaches it's closed position. So I'm sure there is something like that available somewhere. Would probably cost an arm and a leg though.

Quote:
cooling is another issue. He told me he has a noiseless solution for that as well, which I'm waiting for details on.

"noiseless". Sounds like a good salesman.

Well, an 'easy' solution to the cooling would be a ductless minisplit system. However, that and your radiant in floor heating combination only deals with temperature and humidity. HVAC -- in our conversation we've covered 3 of those letters. We have to talk about the "V" which stands for ventilation. That refers to removing stale oxygen deprived air and replacing it with fresh oxgen rich air. That's where you have large penetrations through your walls or ceiling. That's where you NEED home made, custom designed and built silencer boxes. These are large. If you cruise through some threads (use the search feature), you'll find some recent threads that cover this topic in great detail.

Quote:
I didn't have time to try any new configurations yet, but I'll take a screen shot of the full structure anyway to give you an idea of the proposed layout.

Beautiful looking home!

Try drawing up a corner control room and a big tracking room. I'd love to see how it would work out!

Greg

_________________
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
Thanks for your feedback Gregwor and others. I've been toiling for a while now with the corner CR layout, without much success. Mainly no matter where I throw that corner CR room, in order to make it big enough, there's always a ton of wasted space on either side of it. It also always pokes out further into the available space, making the live room smaller, and I'm not sure that's something I want.

Quote:
That's where you NEED home made, custom designed and built silencer boxes. These are large. If you cruise through some threads (use the search feature), you'll find some recent threads that cover this topic in great detail.

Yea I've definitely been giving that some consideration. Since you can see the entire proposed structure - I was hoping to run the main ventilation ducts down through the main hallway, feeding into the other rooms. Having this exposed in the hallway, my hope was to build in those silencer boxes in the hallway. That would make it so the muffling takes place outside the recording section, leaving me the ability to keep the sloped ceilings. This might be a pipe dream.

As it pertains to the "double leaf isolated walls", I know that all the diagrams show the usage of two 1/2" drywall pieces stacked to form a leaf. Is this really just a matter of mass, or is having two separate leaves important in some way? Could I go for a single 5/8" piece instead? What would I lose in that circumstance?

I've given the design a lot of thought. I know that a lot of people would say that having vocal booths is a waste of space. It's too hard to manage low frequencies in a space that small - things of that nature - and they are most likely right. That being said, In the past, and my current tracking preferences, I use them a lot. Maybe it's because I've never had access to a great live room. All that being said, I find the idea of having a separate small rooms for amplifiers and vocalists to be very appealing.

Here's the current layout I'm looking at. I don't have it all measured out and perfect yet - mainly because I feel like you guys won't like it acoustically ;) Don't worry about my feelings though. I want to do this right, and I appreciate your honest feedback. One of my main goals with this version was to maintain a parallel CR room, while being able to have a couch that makes sense. It's easy enough to run the Live room through the online mode calcuator at http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm, but I really have no idea how you would run my CR room through that calculator. Do you average in the extra width for the door entry? Do you just calculate it as if there was an invisible wall there?

Thanks again guys.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:53 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 972
Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
That would make it so the muffling takes place outside the recording section, leaving me the ability to keep the sloped ceilings. This might be a pipe dream.

Depending on the amount of isolation you need, you probably can't get away with having 1 supply and 1 return silencer box as you're implying here (having "them" in the hallway). The ones in the hallway would be for your outer leaf. You need them for your inner leaf as well. So, either they have to go between your leaves or inside your rooms.

Quote:
I know that all the diagrams show the usage of two 1/2" drywall pieces stacked to form a leaf.

Two layers of 5/8" drywall (not 1/2") is common as it typically provides enough isolation for home studios. I wouldn't say all the diagrams have it though. If you read through this forum more you'll see a lot of different wall designs. If you check out my calculator on the top of the design forum (sticky), you can play around with different types of materials and gaps to see how your isolation performance changes.

Quote:
Is this really just a matter of mass, or is having two separate leaves important in some way? Could I go for a single 5/8" piece instead? What would I lose in that circumstance?

Again, try out the calculator. To achieve isolation in an room in a room design, there are three factors:
- mass (surface density)
- spring (the gap between the two leaves)
- insulation (damping in the spring -- the greatly increases the isolation)

You may only need a single 5/8" layer for the amount of isolation you need. You might need 3 layers or 4. That's up to you to decide.

Going for a single sheet of drywall rather than 2 takes away your ability to use Green Glue Compound. That stuff is pretty magical and can greatly improve your isolation.

Quote:
All that being said, I find the idea of having a separate small rooms for amplifiers and vocalists to be very appealing.

The only advantage to having smaller booths like that is when you NEED to record live performances of entire bands. That's it. However, the booths eat up valuable floor area. Also, it makes your HVAC design and cost a nightmare. You need silencer boxes for each of those rooms. You need to be able to zone those little booths which is crazy for me to even think about. And yes, you NEED HVAC run to those rooms. You can't have a singer in a booth without fresh air and proper temperature and humidity control. The required silencer boxes are going to eat up even more space in your rooms. Honestly, in your small area, it's not worth it in my opinion. And again, I'd like to point out that the acoustics of those small rooms would be horrible.

Still very appealing?

Quote:
Here's the current layout I'm looking at. I don't have it all measured out and perfect yet - mainly because I feel like you guys won't like it acoustically ;) Don't worry about my feelings though. I want to do this right, and I appreciate your honest feedback. One of my main goals with this version was to maintain a parallel CR room, while being able to have a couch that makes sense.

If you had to have tiny crappy sounding ISO booths in your design, I would incorporate them into your live room, not the control room like you have here.

Layout one works in a sense of symmetry, but the booths eat up where your soffits would be for mounting your speakers. Also, I wouldn't count on there being enough width at the front of your room for an RFZ. Also, do you have the minimum required area for a control room with this design? You would have to eat up ~2 feet off your back wall for acoustic treatment. Your room will be getting too short to be any good acoustically then. Also, a rule of thumb is to fire your speakers down the longest length of your room. This is to increase your Initial Time Delay Gap. This is very important.

Layout two doesn't work, period. You can't have your room get smaller in the back. Plus, those two corners are where you need extreme bass traps.

Try some corner layouts again. You might be able to use any "wasted space" type areas for your HVAC silencer boxes, designated air handler unit, or storage/machine room?

Greg

_________________
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:18 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 12007
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
2. Man - I've seen so many sites say the equilateral triangle setup is cannon, but I'll take the advice from a guy working in the real world
I wrote the following a while back, so I'm just "copying and pasting" here, but I think it should help dispell ay doubts you might have....:


---------------------------
Beware the equilateral triangle! It's a myth....

Well, OK, it's a myth that this is the only possible way to set up your speakers: it isn't. It's merely a good starting point, and works for most rooms, but is NOT necessarily the best for any room at all! It is nothing more than a simplified misrepresentation of how it should actually be. That "equilateral triangle" thing is all over the internet, in all types of books, all over YouTube, and every place else you look. But that does not make it correct. It would only be correct under two very specific conditions:

1) If the speakers and your head were set up some place where there is no room around them: out in the open, where the speakers are not "acoustically loaded" by the room, and there are no reflections or reverberant field. And:

2) For all listeners who have had their ears surgically transplanted onto their eyeballs! :shock:

Think about it. Every speaker manufacturer will tell you that the absolute flattest, cleanest sound from their speakers is "on axis": when your ear is lined up perfectly with the acoustic axis of the speaker. Yet all of those "equilateral triangle" diagrams show the acoustic axes from the two speakers interesting in the middle of the engineer's head, which means that the ears are NOT on axis! The EYES are on axis... :roll: So if your ears are in your eyeballs, the equilateral triangle is the correct way to set up your speakers. For the rest of us, the speakers need to be set up so that the acoustic axes are aimed at the ears, not the eyes.

In fact, there are some indications that show the axes should actually be aimed a bit outboard of the ears, not directly at them, since the head itself affects the sound as it approaches the ears, and also to create a wider sweet spot around the mix position. Thus, the acoustic axes from your speakers should intersect at some point several inches behind your head, not in the middle of your head. Usually it turns out that the speakers are aimed at a point about 12 to 18 inches behind your head. It might be even more, in some rooms.

There are good locations for the speakers in the room, and there are bad locations. There are also good locations for the mix position (engineer's ears) in the room, and bad locations. In most rooms, creating the "equilateral triangle" puts the speakers in a bad location, or the head in a bad location, or both. And if you put them both in good locations, then you no longer have an "equilateral triangle". My answer to that is: "So what?" There's no logical or acoustic reason why the distance between the speaker cones must be identical to the distance between the cone and your ears. Yes, the distance from the left speaker to your left ear must be the same as the distance form the right speaker to your right ear, in order to ensure that the two sounds arrive in phase and at the same intensity: Absolutely. But that has nothing at all to do with the distance between the speakers! In what way does that distance cause the sound to be better or worse? Answer: In no way!

In fact, if you look at the polar response of the human ear, maximum sensitivity is at about 50° off to the side, not 30°. So spreading the speakers further apart and angling them in a bit more would actually be a good idea.

The ONLY reason why everyone shows the "equilateral triangle", is supposedly because of "standardization". The theory is that if all control rooms have the speakers angled 30°, then they should all sound the same: all the sound stages should be identical, and all the stereo images should be perfect copies of each other, and all the sweet spots should be the same size and shape.... and of course, that is pure, total, utter garbage! Even for rooms where the speakers are set up spot-on for the "equilateral triangle", it is very evident that they don't all sound alike, the sweet spot is not the same, the stereo imaging can be different, and the sound-stage too. So this is not a valid reason.

In other words: the triangle is a myth.

The truth is that the speakers should be set up at the best point in the room for YOUR speakers in YOUR room, and your head should be set up at the best location for YOUR head in YOUR room, then the speakers should be angled correctly such that the acoustic axes of the speakers intersect several inches behind your head, usually around 12" to 18" back.

But that means they won't be angled at 30° any more! :shock: Yup. So what? There is nothing magical about 30°. It just happens to be the angle you need to create an equilateral triangle, but once you abandon that myth, then you are automatically abandoning the need for a 30° angle: Yes, both speakers must be angled exactly the same, so the angles on each side are identical, but it does not have to be 30°. Anywhere from 25° to 35° is just fine, and under certain circumstance you could even go as far as 20° and 45°. Not more than that, though, for other reasons that I don't have time to go into here.

But you don't have to take my word for it: try it out for yourself! In your house, set up your speakers in the classic text-book "equilateral triangle", 2 feet away from the front wall, 1/3 and 2/3 of the room width, angled exactly 30°, with your chair set up so that the axes pierce your eyeballs and intersect in the middle of your head, then carefully listen to your favorite music like that (flat EQ: don't adjust!). Listen to a few songs that you know really well, and pay attention to the bass tightness, accurate definition in the mids, clarity in the highs, as well as the width of the sound-stage, and clarity in the stereo imaging. Move your head side to side, and forwards / backwards, to see how that changes, and how big your "sweet spot" is. Then quickly and silently (all sounds turned off, so as not to lose the mental reference of what you just heard) move everything around to set it up the way I outlined above: Speakers against front wall, set further apart, angled the same but aimed to point behind your head, not at your eyes... and now listen to the exact same songs again, at the same volume, once again paying careful attention to all of the above.

Then tell me which setup works best... Which one gives you the best stereo imaging, clearest sound-stage, and broadest sweet-spot, as well as the tightest bass, best definition in the mid range, and clearest, detailed high end? :)

Don't believe all of the "one size fits all" hype about how so set up your room. All rooms are different. All need different setups. Very seldom does the best setup work out to be a 30° equilateral triangle.

Unless your ears are in your eyes! :)
---------------------------


Quote:
5. The room in front of the CR is my best attempt at having an isolation room, while preserving the modal ratios of the CR and live room. Can you think of a better way to set this up for a iso room? How important is it that I remain true to the room mode ratios?
Something else I wrote a while back, along the lines of "Everything you ever wanted to know about room ratios and modes but were afraid to ask. Another "cut and paste":


------------
Room ratios is a whole major subject in studio design. It works like this: The walls of your studio create natural resonances in the air space between them, inside the room. (This is totally different from the MSM resonance of the walls themselves: this is all about what happens INSIDE the ROOM, not what happens inside the walls. Two totally different things.)

So you have resonant waves inside the room. We call those "standing waves" or "room modes". Those "modes" (resonances) occur at very specific frequencies that are directly related to the distances between the room boundaries (walls, floor, ceiling). They are called "standing waves" because they appear to be stationary inside the room: they are not REALLY stationary, since the energy is still moving through the room. But the pressure peaks and nulls always fall at the exact same points in the room each time the wave energy passes, so the "wave" seems to be fixed, static, and unmoving inside the room. If you play a pure tone that happens to be at the exact frequency of one of the "modes", then you can physically walk around inside the room and experience the "standing" nature of the wave: you will hear that tone grossly exaggerated at some points in the room, greatly amplified, while at other points it will sound normal, and at yet other points it will practically disappear: you won't be able to hear it at all, or you hear it but greatly attenuated, very soft.

The peaks and nulls fall at different places in the room for different frequencies. So the spot in the room where one mode was deafening might turn out to be the null for a different node.

Conversely, if you have a mode (standing wave) that forms at a specific frequency, then playing at a slightly different frequency might show no mode at all: for example, if a tone of exactly 73 Hz creates a standing wave that is clearly identifiable as you walk around the room, with major nulls and peaks, then a tone of 76 Hz might show no modes at all: it sounds the same at all points in the room. Because there are no natural resonances, no "room modes" associated with that frequency.

That's the problem. A BIG problem.

Of course, you don't want that to happen in a control room, because it implies that you would hear different things at different places in the room, for any give song! At some places in the room, some bass notes would be overwhelming, while at other places the same notes would be muted. As you can imagine, if you happen to have your mix position (your ears) located at such a point in the room, you'd never be able to mix anything well, as you would not be hearing what the music REALLY sounds like: you would be hearing the way the room "colors" that sound instead. As you subconsciously compensate for the room modes while you are mixing, you could end up with a song that sounds great in that room at the mix position: the best ever! But it would sound terrible when you played it at any other location, such as in your car, on your iPhone, in your house, on the radio, at a club, in a church, etc. Your mix would not "translate".

And you also don't want major modal issues in a tracking room, for similar reasons: As an instrument plays up and down the scale, some notes will sound louder than others, and will "ring" longer. The instrument won't sound even and balanced.

OK, so now I have painted the scary-ugly "modes are terrible monsters that eat your mixes" picture. Now lets look at that a bit more in depth, to get the real picture, and understand why they look bad, but aren't so bad in reality.

So let's go back to thinking about those room modes (also called "eigenmodes" sometimes): remember I said that they occur at very specific frequencies, and they are very narrow? This implies that if you played an E on your bass guitar, it might trigger a massive modal resonance, but then you play either a D or an F and there is no mode, so they sound normal. Clearly, that's a bad situation. But what if there was a room mode at every single frequency? What if there was one mode for E, a different mode for D and yet another one for F? In that case, there would be no problem, since all notes would still sound the same! Each note would trigger its own mode, and things would be happy again. If there were modes for every single frequency on the spectrum, and they all sounded the same, then you could mix in there with no problems!

And that's exactly what happens at higher frequencies. Just not at low frequencies. Because of "wavelength"...

It works like this: remember I said that modes are related to the distance between walls? It's a very simple relationship. Remember I said the waves are "standing" because the peaks and nulls occur at the same spot in the room? In simple terms, for every frequency where a wave fits in exactly between two walls, then there will be a standing wave. And also for exactly twice that frequency, since two wavelengths of that note will now fit. And the same for three times that frequency, since three full waves will now fit in between the same walls. Etc. All the way up the scale.

So if you have a room mode at 98 Hz in your room, then you will also have modes at 196 Hz (double), 294 (triple), 392 (x4), 490(x5), 588(x6), 686(x7) etc., all the way up. If the very next mode in your room happened to be at 131 Hz, then there would also be modes at 262 Hz(x2), 393(x3), 524(x4), 655(x5), etc.

That's terrible, right? There must be thousands of modes at higher frequencies!!! That must be awful!

Actually, no. That's a GOOD thing. You WANT lots of modes, for the reasons I gave above: If you have many modes for each note on the scale, then the room sounds the same for ALL notes, which is what you want. It's good, not bad.

But now let's use a bit of math and common sense here, to see what the real problem is.

If your room has a mode at 98Hz, and the next mode is at 131 Hz, that's a difference of 32%! 98 Hz is a "G2". So you have a mode for "G2". but your very next mode is a "C3" at 131Hz. That's five notes higher on the scale: your modes completely skip over G2#, A2, A2#, and B2. No modes for them! So those four notes in the middle sound perfectly normal in your room, but the G2 and C3 are loud and long.

However, move up a couple of octaves: ...

There's a harmonic of your 98Hz mode at 588 Hz, and there's a harmonic of your 131 Hz mode at 524 Hz. 524 Hz is C5 on the musical scale, and 588 Hz is a D5. They are only two notes apart! Not five, as before.

Go up a bit more, and we have one mode at 655 and another at 686. 655 is an E5, and 686 is an F5. they are adjacent notes. Nothing in between! We have what we want: a mode for every note.

The further up you go, the closer the spacing is. In fact, as you move up the scale even higher, you find several modes for each note. Wonderful!

So at high frequencies, there is no problem: plenty of modes to go around and keep the music sounding good.

The problem is at low frequencies, where the modes are few and far between.

The reason there are few modes at low frequencies is very simple: wavelengths are very long compared to the size of the room. At 20 Hz (the lower limit of the audible spectrum, and also E0 on the organ keyboard), the wavelength is over 56 feet (17m)! So your room would have to be 56 feet long (17 meters long) in order to have a mode for 20 Hz.

Actually, I've been simplifying a bit: it turns out that what matters is not the full wave, but the half wave: the full wave has to exactly fit into the "there and back" distance between the walls, so the distance between the walls needs to be half of that: the half-wavelength. So to get a mode for 20 Hz, your room needs to be 56 / 2 = 28 feet long (8.5M) . Obviously, most home studios do not have modes at 20 Hz, because there's no way you can fit a 28 foot (eight meter) control room into most houses!

So clearly, the longest available distance defines your lowest mode. If we take a hypothetical dimensions as an example (typical of a very small home studio), and say the length of the control room is 13 feet (4m), the width is 10 feet (3m), and the height is 8 feet. (2.5M) So the lowest mode you could possibly have in that room, would be at about 43 Hz (fits into 13 feet or 4M perfectly). That's an "F1" on your bass guitar.

The next highest mode that you room could support is the one related to the next dimension of the room: In this case, that would be width, at 10 feet / 3M. That works out to 56.5 Hz. That's an "A1#" on your bass guitar. Five entire notes up the scale.

And your third major mode would be the one related to the height of the room, which is 8 feet /2.5M, and that works out to 71 Hz, or C2# on the bass guitar. Another four entire notes up the scale.

There are NO other fundamental modes in that room. So as you play every note going up the scale on your bass guitar (or keyboard), you get huge massive ringing at F, A# and C#, while all the other notes sound normal. As you play up the scale, it goes "tink.tink.tink.BOOOOM.tink.tink.tink.tink.BOOOOOM.tink.tink.tink.BOOOOOM.tink.tink...."

Not a happy picture.

There are harmonic modes of all those notes higher up the scale, sure. But in the low end, your modes are very few, and very far between.

So, what some people say is "If modes are bad, then we have to get rid of them". Wrong! What you need is MORE modes, not less. Ideally, you need a couple of modes at every single possible note on the scale, such that all notes sound the same in your room. In other words, the reverberant field would be smooth and even. Modes would be very close together, and evenly spread.

So trying to "get rid of modes" is a bad idea. And even if it were a good idea, it would still be impossible! Because modes are related to walls, the only way to get rid of modes is with a bulldozer! Knock down the walls... :shock:

That's a drastic solution, but obviously the only way to get a control room that has no modes at all, is to have no walls! Go mix in the middle of a big empty field, sitting on top of a 56 foot (17 M) ladder, and you'll have no modes to worry about.... 8) :roll:

:shot:

Since that isn't feasible, we have to learn to live with modes.

Or rather, we have to learn to live with the LACK of modes in the low end. As I said, the problem is not that we have too many modes, but rather that we don't have enough of them in the low frequencies.

Obviously, for any give room there is a point on the spectrum where there are "enough" modes. Above that point, there are several modes per note, but below it there are not.

There's a mathematical method for determining where that point is: a scientist called Schroeder figured it out, years ago, so it is now known as the Schroeder frequency for the room. Above the Schroeder frequency for a room, modes are not a problem, because there are are lots of them spaced very close together. Below the Schroeder frequency, there's a problem: the modes are spaced far apart, and unevenly. (The Schroeder frequency is a bit more complex than just that, since it also considers treatment, but this gives you an idea...)

So what can we do about that?

All we can do is to choose a "room ratio" that has the modes spaced out sort of evenly, and NOT choose a ratio where the modes are bunched up together. For example, if your room is 10 feet long and 10 feet wide and 10 feet high (3m x 3m x 3m), then all of the modes will occur at the exact same frequency: 56.5 Hz. So the resonance when you play an A1 on the bass, or cello, or hit an A1 on the keyboard, will by tripled! It will be three times louder. The nulls will be three times deeper. That's a bad situation, so don't ever choose room dimensions that are the same as each other.

You get the same problem for dimensions that are multiples of each other: a room 10 feet high (3m) by 20 feet wide (6m) by 30 feet long (9m) is also terrible. All of the second harmonics of 10 feet will line up with the 20 foot modes, and all of the third harmonics will line up with the 30 foot modes, so you get the same "multiplied" effect. Bad.

In other words, you want a room where the dimensions are mathematically different from each other, with no simple relationship to each other.

That brings up the obvious question: What ratio is best?

Answer: there isn't one! :)

Over the years, many scientists have tested many ratios, both mathematically and also in the real world, and come up with some that are really good. The ratios they found are named after them: Sepmeyer, Louden, Boner, Volkmann, etc. Then along came a guy called Bolt, who drew a graph showing all possible ratios, and he highlighted the good ones found by all the other guys, and predicted by mathematical equations, plus a few of his own: If you plot your own room ratio on that graph, and it falls inside the "Bolt area", then likely it is a good one, and if it falls outside the "Bolt area", then likely it is a bad one. Sort of.

So, there are no perfect ratios, only good ratios and bad ratios.

It is impossible to have a "perfect" ratio in a small room, simply because that would require enough modes to have one mode for every note on the musical scale, but that's the entire problem with small rooms! There just are not enough modes in the low end. So you can choose a ratio that spreads them a bit more this way or a bit more that way, but all you are doing is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic, in pleasant-looking patterns. The problem is not the location of the deck chairs; the problem is that your boat is sunk!: Likewise for your studio: the problem is not the locations of the modes: the problem is that your room is sunk. No matter what you do with the dimensions, you cannot put a mode at every note, unless you make the room bigger. It is physically impossible.

But that does not mean that your room will be bad. That's the common perception, and it is dead wrong.

All of this leads to the question you didn't ask yet, but are probably heading for: What can I do about it?

Here's the thing: Modes are only a problem if they "ring". The wave is only a problem if the energy builds up and up and up, with each passing cycle, until it is screaming, and then the "built up" energy carries on singing away, even after the original note stops. That's the problem. If you stop playing the A1 on your guitar, and the room keeps on playing an A1 for a couple of seconds, because it "stored" the resonant energy and is now releasing it, then that's a BIG problem! The room is playing tunes that never were in the original music! :shock:

If a mode doesn't ring like that, then it is no longer a major issue. (It is still an issue for other reasons, just not a major one....)

So how do you stop a mode? You can't stop it from being there. But you CAN stop it from "ringing". You can "damp" the resonance sufficiently that the mode dies away fast, and does not ring. You remove the resonant energy and convert it into heat: no more problem! In other words, it's not good if you own a large angry dog that barks all the time and bights your visitors, but it's fine to own a large angry dog with a muzzle on his mouth, so he cannot bark and cannot bight!

You do that with "bass trapping". A bass trap is like the dog muzzle. It doesn't get rid of the problem, but it does keep it under control. You use strategically placed acoustic treatment devices inside the room that absorb the ringing of the mode, then it cannot ring. There are several ways to do that, with different strategies, but the good news is that in most rooms it is possible to get significant damping on the modes, so that they don't ring badly, and don't cause problems. Note that bass trapping does not absorb the mode: it just absorbs the ringing. Some people don't understand this, and think that the bass trapping makes the modes go away: it doesn't. All it does is to damp them. The modes are still there, and still affect the room acoustics in other ways, but with good damping, at least they don't "ring" any more.

And that is the secret to making a control room good in the low end! Choose a good ratio to keep the modes spread around evenly, then damp the hell out of the low end, so modes cannot ring. It's that simple.

The smaller the room, the more treatment you need. And since those waves are huge (many feet long), you need huge bass trapping (many feet long/wide/high/deep). It takes up lots of space, and the best place for it is in the corners of the room, because that's where all modes terminate. If you want to find a mode in your room, go look for it in the corner: it will be there. All modes have a pressure node in two or more corners, so by treating the corners, you are guaranteed of hitting all the modes.

As I said, there is no single "best" ratio, but there are good ones. You can use a "Room Mode Calculator" to help you figure out which "good ones" are within reach of the possible area you have available, then choose the closest good one, and go with that. And stay away from the bad ones.

Arguably, Sepmeyer's first ratio is the "best", since it can have the smoothest distribution of modes... but only if the room is already within a certain size range. Other ratios might be more suitable if your room has a different set of possible dimensions. So there is no "best".

But that's not the entire story: So far, all the modes I have mentioned are only related to two walls across the room, opposite from each other. I mentioned modes that form along the length axis of the room (between the front and back wall), others that form along the width axis (between left and right walls), and others that form on the height axis (between floor and ceiling): Those are the easiest ones to understand, because they "make sense" in your head when you think about them. Those are called "axial modes", because they form along the major axes of the room: length axis, width axis, height axis.

However, there are also other modes that can form between four surfaces, instead of just two. For example, there are modes that can bounce around between all four walls, or between the front and back walls as well as the ceiling and floor: those are called "tangential modes". And there are other modes that can form between all six surfaces at once: they involve all four walls plus the ceiling and the floor. Those are called "oblique modes".

The complete set of modes in your room consists of the axial modes, plus the tangential modes, plus the oblique modes.

That's what a good room mode calculator (a.k.a. "room ratio calculator") will show you. There are bad calculators that only show you the axial modes, which is pretty pointless, and the good ones show you all three types.

Use one of these Room Ratio calculators to figure out the best dimensions for your room:

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

http://amroc.andymel.eu/

Both of those are very good, and will help you to decide how best to build your room. They give you tons of information that is really useful to help figure out the best dimensions.

However, modes aren't that important, despite all the hype they get: Modes are one aspect of room design, but there are many more. It's wise to choose a ratio that is close to one of the good ones, or inside the Bolt area, but you do NOT need to go nuts about it! There's no need to nudge things around by millimeters or smalls fractions of an inch, hoping to get a "better" ratio. Just stay away from the bad ones, get close to a good one, and you are done. End of story.

So there you have it! "Everything you ever wanted to know about modes, but were afraid to ask"! :)

----------------


So, to answer your actual question: No, you don't need to be too concerned about room ratios. As long as your ratio is reasonably far from the "bad ones, you are OK. And if you have a small room where you need to choose between getting a "great" ratio, or increasing the room volume for a slightly less great ratio, then I would ALWAYS increase the volume. No doubt at all.

Quote:
If I do the full decoupled double leaf wall system, do I need to have two doors at every entry/exit point?
If you want optimum isolation yes! As Greg said.

Quote:
Would using a single door with a deep frame couple the walls together so much that the STR is lost?
Greg already addressed that: You'll see some reputable studio designers say that it is possible to do a single door in a 2-leaf wall without too much loss. I'm not with that group! To me, if you spent all that time and effort to decouple your walls, and then you go and couple them again at the doorway, and the window, knowing that you are causing some loss in isolation... it makes no sense.

Quote:
That being said, I've scrapped every one of them because the ceiling slopes from left to right, so any corner control room will have a sloping ceiling at a strange angle.
Which ceiling slopes? The OUTER-LEAF ceiling? :) If you build the actual CR inner-leaf correctly, the the ceiling will not slope side-to-side....

Quote:
Make sense, like the doors. Is there any solution out there that would allow for the opening of the windows to let in fresh air, or are fixed fully sealed windows pretty much what I'm going to need?
Studios do not normally have operable windows: Except for the live room in the corner control room studio! :roll: I designed that studio originally with sealed windows but he really wanted to have them operable, and took the decisions to do that, know that it would compromise his isolation. HOWEVER! He did NOT do that expecting to be able to use that as his HVAC system: He still installed the HVAC system exactly as I designed it, and that is what keeps the room ventilated, cooled, and de-humidifed. He just has the windows there for when he feels like opening them, to be more connected to the outside. But when he is actually tacking in the studio, the windows are closed tight, and the HVAC is doing the job it was designed for.

So no, you cannot ventilate your room with an open window. You NEED an HVAC system. It is not a luxury: it is a basic necessity for a studio.

Quote:
I'm designing the structure with the idea that there will not be necessary to run water at all through the studio portion of the structure. The lounge area will definitely be cornered off.
Greg wss talking about structure-borne sounds, which can include things like running water, flushing toilets, washing machines, doors opening and closing, footsteps on non-solid floors, etc. All of those sounds can trash your tracking sessions, and even your mixing sessions. So can aircraft flying overhead, sirens from passing emergency vehicles, or just the neighbors dog barking.

You need isolation.
Quote:
My builder has informed me that normally in this situation, they install a boiler with piping running through the concrete slab. The boiler heats water, that in turn heats the slab,
You can do under-floor heating if you want, but do be aware that is is expensive to install, expensive to operate, and take a long time to warm up the room if it is cold. It has to heat up the huge thermal mass of the slab itself before you get much heat in the room, and even then the heat only gets around by convection. If you want to heat a room fast and evenly, use proper HVAC. It is MUCH more efficient than under-floor heating.

Quote:
No moving air. Obviously, that only deals with heating, cooling is another issue.
And none of that deals with he most complex part of HVAC: the "V" in the middle: Ventilation. You sort of need ventilation, if you plan on staying alive inside your studio... We humans have this bad habit of needing to breathe in and out many times per minute, and if we stop doing that, then we don't seem to be very happy... It turns out that if we can't get nice fresh clean air with plenty of oxygen in it, then we stop breathing. And we are not happy....
Quote:
He told me he has a noiseless solution for that as well, which I'm waiting for details on.
So how many studios has he designed HVAC systems for? Can you get a list of his studio customers, so you can contact them, and see how well his studio designs worked out? 8) :lol:

Building a studio is NOTHING AT ALL like building a house, office, shop, church, school or other "normal" building. It is totally different. IF your contractor has never built one before, then he's going to need a lot of re-training to learn how to do it right. Much of what he normally does when building is dead wrong for a studio. Same building materials, same tools, but very different techniques.

Quote:
I didn't have time to try any new configurations yet, but I'll take a screen shot of the full structure anyway to give you an idea of the proposed layout.
Perhaps you could just tell us what the total area of the new building can be, and what rooms you would like to have in there.

Quote:
"noiseless". Sounds like a good salesman.
:thu: :) But not the one that you would want designing your studio! :)

Quote:
I've been toiling for a while now with the corner CR layout, without much success. Mainly no matter where I throw that corner CR room, in order to make it big enough, there's always a ton of wasted space on either side of it
... which can be put to good use, in a carefully designed studio... Did you take a look at the corner control room? :) One side of his CR leads to the entry hall, with bathroom. The other side leads to the live room. I have done other corner studios where there is a vocal booth on one side. Or a machine room. Or storage....

Don't get me wrong! Corner control rooms are not so easy to design, and have certain inherent limitations and difficulties, but those can be overcome. Read through all of the corner control room thread, then try again with your design attempt.

Quote:
my hope was to build in those silencer boxes in the hallway. That would make it so the muffling takes place outside the recording section
That only deals with the silencing of your OUTER-leaf. You also need to silence the duct where it passes through your INNER-leaf....

If you do not need much isolation, there are methods for just using a single silencer that goes through both leaves, but I don't recommend that. Especially if you need a lot of isolation.

Quote:
I know that all the diagrams show the usage of two 1/2" drywall pieces stacked to form a leaf.
1/2" is not necessarily enough. Many studio builders use two layers of 5/8" drywall to build up the mass for the leaf. Personally, I prefer one layer of 5/8" or even 3/4" OSB or plywood or MDF on the studs, then the second layer as 5/8" drywall.

Quote:
Is this really just a matter of mass, or is having two separate leaves important in some way? Could I go for a single 5/8" piece instead? What would I lose in that circumstance?
It is about mass, but also about how the various layers interact with each other, and also about how you seal joints between adjacent panels. Air-tight seas are critical, and a lot easier to achieve if you have two layers of mass with the joints staggered from each other. I don't normally use only one layer.

Quote:
I've given the design a lot of thought. I know that a lot of people would say that having vocal booths is a waste of space. It's too hard to manage low frequencies in a space that small - things of that nature - and they are most likely right. That being said, In the past, and my current tracking preferences, I use them a lot. Maybe it's because I've never had access to a great live room. All that being said, I find the idea of having a separate small rooms for amplifiers and vocalists to be very appealing.
If you like your vocal booth, then you can keep your vocal booth! :) But with better design, you could make better use of space, have a larger control room, and still fit everything in. How much actual floor area do you have?

Have you considered recording vocals in your control room? :)

Quote:
but I really have no idea how you would run my CR room through that calculator. Do you average in the extra width for the door entry? Do you just calculate it as if there was an invisible wall there?
If your room does not have four walls one ceiling, and one floor that are mutually perpendicular and parallel, then you cannot use that calculator. It only applies to rectangular rooms....

Quote:
Here's the current layout I'm looking at.
Which, strangely enough, is shaped somewhat like a corner control room, but is not using the space as efficiently as a proper corner control room could.... :)


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
First off - guys, you are great. I've been carefully reading and re-reading your comments - and I've tried to take them to heart in this next design. After careful consideration, I've eliminated the garage. This enabled me to take a fresh new look at the design as a whole. After doing so, I was able to squeeze more square footage into the "Studio Block", without increasing my costs to much.

I've come up with a layout that I feel fixed some of the issues you guys listed above.

1. The vocal booth is officially dead.

2. This layout does have a static 8' ceiling in the control room with no slope, which enabled my brain to allow the design to happen ;)

3. This layout includes a sound lock entry between the two leafs

4. In that same sound lock "area" is the space for my custom silencer box between the leaves

5. Storage rooms!

6. Larger speaker soffits that make sense.

7. A couch for people to listen that isn't all up in my grill

8. More square footage in the CR and live room

9. Sealed fixed windows it is.

There are still a few issues you guys mentioned, that I'm not sure have been fully addressed.

1. There might not be enough room for a silencer box in that space that could account for air flow into both the CR and Live room? More research on my part to be done.

2. The Live room is closely approaching a square shape, of course, with the exception that the CR is cutting right into that square. I might not have enough modes!

3. I still have not hit the "minimum size" for the CR room that you guys mentioned above, and I feel that if I go any larger, the live room will just simply not be big enough.

Let me know what you guys think! I've got a preliminary meeting with the builder's designer set for tomorrow. He's aware that the studio section is not finalized, but he still wanted to get together to help me in the process, and make sure I'm accounting for everything I will need. This most likely means more changes tomorrow!


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
UPDATE on version 4.

I'm getting more creative trying to get space into the CR. I did some research online, and it looks like the minimum width of a hallway per code is 3'. That's too small for my taste, but it was at 4'6". I took it down to 4'. I also had an additional 8" of wasted space in my bathroom which I took back. I took this additional square footage into the studio block, and I'm quite pleased with the results. I essentially added 1'2" of "width" to the studio block. With this extra width, I felt comfortable making the CR poke more into the LR space. This also made the window between the CR and LR rooms give vision roughly to the center of the room. I also took the "bottom" storage closet that was facing into the live room, and made it facing into the main entry way. My wife was quite pleased with this decision :) Doing that though did create an awkward wall between the sound lock entry room and that entry facing storage closet. I know I don't want to join those walls together so they can vibrate each other, but it does leave an awkward gap. Thoughts on this? Do I need to double leaf the back of that storage closet? Seems a bit excessive to me, but if you guys think it's important, I'll do it. Another potential issue I see with design is the length and width of the two runs in the LR are getting dangerously close to being equal. There is a 2' 7" difference. Am I making an untreatable beast?

I know the square footage on the two CR's looks the same, but in this image I did not add the speaker soffits into the square footage, because they shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

Black walls denote the two leaf system described above. White walls denote standard walls.
Let me know your thoughts, and thanks again.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:10 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 12007
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
1. The vocal booth is officially dead.
But now you have space to fit one in! :) It would be small, but you could put one off to the left of the CR, extending part way into the LR even, for more interior volume...

Quote:
2. This layout does have a static 8' ceiling in the control room with no slope, which enabled my brain to allow the design to happen
Any chance you can get it higher? Have you considered doing it "inside out"? Take a close look at the corner control room ceiling....

Quote:
3. This layout includes a sound lock entry between the two leafs
Not needed. Waste of space. Just use double-doors (back-to-back) in each doorway. Just as effective, and saves a lot of space.

Quote:
4. In that same sound lock "area" is the space for my custom silencer box between the leaves
Use the ceiling space, in between the inner and outer leaf for that, or any other place between the leaves. Or inside the speaker soffits (partially). Or above the rear bass trapping in the CR, where you can lower that part of the ceiling a bit to make it fit. Or .... :)

Quote:
6. Larger speaker soffits that make sense.
:thu:

Quote:
7. A couch for people to listen that isn't all up in my grill
:thu: For a corner control room, it might be better to put a couple of individual easy chairs back there: they might fit better.

Quote:
8. More square footage in the CR and live room
:thu:

Quote:
9. Sealed fixed windows it is.
:thu:

Quote:
1. There might not be enough room for a silencer box in that space that could account for air flow into both the CR and Live room? More research on my part to be done.
Silencer boxes are BIG. At least as thick as the diameter of your air ducts, plus a couple of inches on each side. Several feet long / wide. You will need four of them for each room: two on the supply duct (one inner-leaf, one outer-leaf), plus two on the return duct (one inner-leaf, one outer-leaf). It is possible to get by with fewer under some circumstances...

Quote:
2. The Live room is closely approaching a square shape, of course, with the exception that the CR is cutting right into that square. I might not have enough modes!
Yup. And of course, the CR MUST be a square shape... sort of... But you can fix that by angling some of the walls.... Take a close look at the corner control room: the CR is more trapezoidal than square.

Don't get carried away with modes too much: Room ratios are mildly important for control rooms, less so for live rooms, but there are other, bigger issues that take precedence.

Quote:
3. I still have not hit the "minimum size" for the CR room that you guys mentioned above, and I feel that if I go any larger, the live room will just simply not be big enough.
The 215 ft2 "minimum size" is not an absolute cut-off point: it's just the ideal. The specs actually say "20m2 to 60m2", but that doesn't mean that if you only get 214.8 ft2 that your room is a disaster! Nor at 200 ft2... nor at 185 ft... It just means that the room gets progressively harder to treat as it gets smaller. Floor area of the corner control room is actually about 145 ft, and you can see how that is turning out... But you can also see that it wasn't an easy job to treat it! The final outcome is very good, in fact, but there's a ton of very careful tuning that went into that. With a larger room, it would have been easier to treat, but the priority was to maximize the LR. At 185 ft, you are probably going to be reasonably OK, but I wouldn't go smaller than that. It will still need plenty of treatment, though.

Quote:
I've got a preliminary meeting with the builder's designer set for tomorrow.
Poor fellow... he's gonna have a heart attack when he sees what you are planning! :)

Quote:
I took this additional square footage into the studio block, and I'm quite pleased with the results.
:thu: But lose the air-lock, and gain a few more ft2.... You can't do the air-lock and storage like that anyway, as you have them inside yoru wall cavity...

And angle the walls between CR and LR, to gain a few more ft2

Quote:
This also made the window between the CR and LR rooms give vision roughly to the center of the room.
There are ways of improving that even more... :)

Quote:
Doing that though did create an awkward wall between the sound lock entry room and that entry facing storage closet. I know I don't want to join those walls together so they can vibrate each other, but it does leave an awkward gap. Thoughts on this?
My thought would be: don't do it that way! Forget the airlock: it only wastes space. And keep the storage completely inside the studio, or completely outside it. You can't have it inside your MSM cavity....

Quote:
Another potential issue I see with design is the length and width of the two runs in the LR are getting dangerously close to being equal. There is a 2' 7" difference. Am I making an untreable beast?
Generally, you should try to keep your dimensions at least 5% different, and 5& different from any multiple. So if the room is (for example) 20 feet long, then make it either greater than 21 feet wide, or less than 19 feet wide. Or also, greater than 11 feet wide, or less than 9 feet wide. As long as the dimensions, or the multiples, differ by 5% or more, you should be OK.

Plus, your room is not a rectangle anyway, so normal modal calculators do not apply in any case....

Quote:
I did not add the speaker soffits into the square footage, because they shouldn't have been in there in the first place.
Ummmm... Yes they should! :) The speaker soffits are, indeed, part of the room, not part of the wall cavity... Once again, work through the corner control room thread to see how we did that. Or Steve's thread...

Quote:
Black walls denote the two leaf system described above. White walls denote standard walls.
Your 38ft2 empty area at the top left is missing walls....

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:23 am
Posts: 13
Location: NE, USA
Thanks for the reply Stuart -
Quote:
You can't have it inside your MSM cavity....

So, my noob assumption was that if the door is sealed, the MSM cavity is contained. Even though those extra sheets of drywall make it a 4 leaf, the extra volume in the cavity would compensate. Apparently this is definitely a no-no?

Quote:
Not needed. Waste of space. Just use double-doors (back-to-back) in each doorway. Just as effective, and saves a lot of space.

My wife is begging for some entry facing storage, and she's right, we need it. The sound lock room was just a by-product of facing that storage outwards, while still having entry to the LR from the main hallway. That space seemed the obvious candidate. Another inexperienced assumption of mine was that having that small entry way be part of the live room would create a small sound "build-up" area that would hurt more than help. Is this not correct?

Quote:
But now you have space to fit one in! :) It would be small, but you could put one off to the left of the CR

I've given a lot of thought to my current work flow. Since I did not have access to a great LR up to this point, I got used to relying on vocal booths. After consideration, not having one really doesn't seem like it would effect my work flow at all.

Quote:
Any chance you can get it higher? Have you considered doing it "inside out"? Take a close look at the corner control room ceiling....

So I went through the entire thread hoping to find a diagram for how his ceilings were done, to no avail. By inside out, do you just mean that the dry wall was placed on the top of the frame instead of the bottom? Sorry :(

Quote:
Your 38ft2 empty area at the top left is missing walls....

Same inexperienced idea. My thought is if the cavity is maintained while the door is closed, then the soundproofing should be unaffected. No one will be opening that door while tracking is live.

On a side note - while cruising through the corner control room thread, I think I saw that he had a set of reference monitors, in wall, providing hear-back / sound to the LR. Did I just interpret the image wrong? The reason why I ask is that I have a set of KRK's that are gathering dust, and I could see them getting some good use in that circumstance.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:01 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 972
Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
So, my noob assumption was that if the door is sealed, the MSM cavity is contained. Even though those extra sheets of drywall make it a 4 leaf, the extra volume in the cavity would compensate. Apparently this is definitely a no-no?

It might be because I haven't studied your pictures long enough, but I'm really having troubles following your black and white walls. Each wall must only have one mass on it otherwise it will be a 3+ leaf system.

Quote:
My wife is begging for some entry facing storage, and she's right, we need it.

Lack of storage prevents us from becoming hoarders though!

Quote:
having that small entry way be part of the live room would create a small sound "build-up" area that would hurt more than help. Is this not correct?

As long as the gap size (the "spring" in the MSM equation) is maintained, there is no issue.

Quote:
So I went through the entire thread hoping to find a diagram for how his ceilings were done, to no avail. By inside out, do you just mean that the dry wall was placed on the top of the frame instead of the bottom? Sorry :(

Yes. If you use the search tool on the forum you can easily find a bunch of stuff regarding inside out walls and ceilings. If you have troubles finding stuff, let us know and we'll direct you further.

As Stuart mentioned, you should try and get the tallest ceilings you can afford. I tried to get 11 foot ceilings in my basement where my control room and ISO room are and the day we signed the building agreement they dropped the bad news on me that they could only do 10 foot ceilings due to architectural guidelines (only X number of steps going up to the front door) and the fact that the sewer invert was at a certain depth. Honestly, that extra foot would have saved me so much headache in my design, would have yielded way better acoustics and in my actual build, it would have made my life so much easier. Lastly, even after building my inside out ceiling, visually, I'm still going to have pretty low looking ceilings. Again, get friggin 15 foot ceilings if you can. For real. Have I made my point yet? :horse:

-----

I noticed in your last diagram that your speaker soffits appear to be part of your MSM system. Make sure that your CR inner leaf actually goes where you had it in the previous picture. Your soffit baffle is not considered a wall. And therefore, as Stuart said, the inside of your soffit is counted as control room area.

One major thing I need to point out so that you can address it in your revisions would be ray tracing. I'm not sure how your RFZ will work out with the walls angled the way they are.

Lastly, I would like to say that I'm delighted to see your revisions as they are SO much better than your original plan. You also seem to be studying your ass off as I notice you're considering a lot of fine details. I really appreciate a keener like yourself as I was in your same shoes not too long ago. I sure hope you get your dream home and dream studio. There are a few pointers I can give you considering the fact that you're getting this place built from the ground up like:
- Run conduit in the ground before they pour concrete slab
- Get extra thick sheathing on the outside of your home around your studio so that you don't have to beef it up later (go and seal the layers and apply Green Glue Compound before they stand the walls up!)
- Get extra thick drywall down your hallway or any outer leaf walls that are shared with the guts of your home.
- Make sure the builders don't run any crap through your studio area
- If they regularly put 100A service to your home, get 200A so you never have to worry about overloading your service as you will probably have your own air handler unit
- Figure out where you're main electrical panel is and get them to run a sub panel (or two) to your studio area.
- For electrical, HVAC separate, lights separate, outlets separate. Isolated grounds on your outlets.
- Plan your HVAC asap before they do your home as you will need to know where your designated supply and returns penetrate your exterior walls.
- If you require crazy isolation, get isolated concrete slabs. Shouldn't cost too too much extra.

If I think of more later, I'll be sure to let you know.

Greg

_________________
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group