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What step do I accomplish next?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:54 am 
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Good day all! Ive been building my small studio in Orlando, but I seem to be stuck at this particular phase.. Just had the two layers of 5/8 rock put up. and ready to deal with windows, doors, wall surface, and acoustics. :D HOWEVER... I dont know which to do first! lol OK..

Ive heard Drywall is the enemy... So... Im looking into the fabric and the tracks to put up. After speaking with a company who provides the track, his advice was to place furring strips and use 1x4 strip along the drywall. Then place everything I wanted to mount on the ceiling and walls ON the furring/wood strips. That way it sits on TOP of the fabric. Thats sounds fine, but then I remembered I am placing track lighting tracks all over the ceiling, and connecting these would be mc cable.(They are separated by a few feet) I didn't want the cable to be revealed on the surface, so I am stuck asking myself what to do!!??

THEN... I dont want to put up more insulation to help with the acoustics without having tests done on the control room. Seems like just a waste of time to do that. I get that if I know where my desk placement will be, I can handle the reflection points. But what about the room modes, etc.. Is there a way to calculate this and apply treatment to help with these situations?

Lastly... I need a place that makes a 5/8" thick laminated glass for the windows. To my understanding you have to get glass with the same density of the walls per sq ft for it to be effective. My calculations led to 5/8" thick on one side with 3/8" thick on the other. Anyone know where I can get this?

If there are any acousticians in the Orlando area pleeease hit me up.

I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:16 am 
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What exactly are we looking at in those photos? I see a mix of isolated coupled single-leaf walls with other decoupled poorly isolated walls. Some photos show what seems to be the final inner-leaf of your rooms, but on the other hand that can't be right, because there are numerous huge holes where cables, electrical outlets, switch boxes and light boxes are poking through... :shock: that makes no sense. You CANNOT have holes in your isolation walls. :!: If there's a hole, even a tiny one, then you have no isolation. Did you look at the charts, tables, and graphs that show just how much isolation you lose from having a single small hole in your wall? You have numerous LARGE holes....

So before you do anything else, you'll have to fix that problem. Remove all the electrical boxes, plug up the holes with the usual drywall patching techniques, seal it all up air tight, and bring in your electrical feed properly, through one single penetration using the correct procedure for that, then install your proper surface-mount electrical system.

This was a major mistake. Your electrician should have known better. Either he doesn't know because he has never wired a studio before (which means it was a mistake to hire him in the first place, if he has no studio experience), or he does know but doesn't care. But whatever it was, it MUST be fixed.

So that's the first thing you need to do: get rid of all those holes! Major, huge, big problem. Fix that, then you can carry on with the rest.

Once you have done that, put your windows and doors in. You cannot test the acoustic response of the room until it is totally sealed up, completely air-tight, so you need the windows sealed in place, and the doors properly mounted with all of their seals, in addition to fixing the electrical seal problem.

Next, I don't understand this phrase:

Quote:
Just had the two layers of 5/8 rock put up. and ready to deal with windows, doors, wall surface,
You already HAVE your wall surface! Your walls are built conventionally, not inside-out, so what is visible in the photos IS the final wall surface! There's nothing more you can do to that. It is your final surface. You'll probably want to sand, seal, and paint it properly, but that's it. There is no more "surfacing" required. If you would have built your rooms using the "inside out" technique, that would be a different story, and there would be many options open to you for other finishes, but since you chose to do it conventionally, the only option you have is normal drywall finishing.

Quote:
Ive heard Drywall is the enemy... So... Im looking into the fabric and the tracks to put up.
I don't get that either: What fabric? What tracks? Why is drywall "the enemy". It's a pretty good wall surface for a studio, actually! It's only an "enemy" if the rooms were not designed with drywall finish in mind. Who told you that drywall is the enemy? What reasons did they give you for making such a silly statement?

Quote:
After speaking with a company who provides the track, his advice was to place furring strips and use 1x4 strip along the drywall.
For what purpose? I'm just not understanding what the design concept is here. Please post your actual original design, so I can get a better idea of what the plan is here. What design concept did you use for your control room? Which of those rooms IS the control room? I can't see any that make sense for use as a control room...

Quote:
Then place everything I wanted to mount on the ceiling and walls ON the furring/wood strips.
Why do you think you need furring strips? Why do you think you need fabric? Are you aware that proper acoustic fabric is designed to be almost TRANSPARENT to sound, and do nothing to it, or only affect it minimally? Why do you want to put up something on your walls that has no effect? And why do you want a 3/4" empty gap from the furring strips between the fabric and the drywall? What acoustic purpose are you hoping that would serve?

Quote:
Then place everything I wanted to mount on the ceiling and walls ON the furring/wood strips. That way it sits on TOP of the fabric.
Why do you not want to mount your acoustic panels in the normal, common, ubiquitous manner? Is there something wrong with your wall studs and ceiling joists, that you can't use them to support your treatment? I'm really getting very confused about your whole build here: nothing seems to make sense.

Maybe you should take a look at these two threads, to understand the goals, process and results for treating rooms: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21368 That one is in progress right now, very nearly completed (the next step is hanging the cloud)... That was built "inside out", so you can see how that would have helped you (but it's too late now). And also this one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 That has been finished for a while already. It was built "conventionally" (not inside out), just like yours is built. You can see that there are no furring strips, no tracks, and no fabric on the walls there: just plain old drywall, with carefully designed acoustic treatment hung directly on the walls, at the correct locations.

Quote:
Thats sounds fine, but then I remembered I am placing track lighting tracks all over the ceiling, and connecting these would be mc cable.(They are separated by a few feet) I didn't want the cable to be revealed on the surface, so I am stuck asking myself what to do!!??
So you didn't actually plan that before you started building? Another mistake.

In any case, it won't be a problem, because you'll be eliminating all of those holes and wires poking through your ceiling at present, sealing it all up so you can have good isolation, then installing proper surface-mount raceways to do all of your wiring inside the room. So, you'll just run a single surface-mount raceway across the ceiling, with branches going to each track light. Except for the large area where your cloud will be hung, of course: that part of the ceiling won't be visible at all, so you cannot put track lighting on it to start with. But you CAN put lights in the cloud, and feed those from above through a concealed connection. Take a look at Studio Three, to see how that is done.

Quote:
THEN... I dont want to put up more insulation to help with the acoustics without having tests done on the control room. Seems like just a waste of time to do that
Correct! :thu: The very first thing you need to do (as soon as you have fixed the massive problem with all those holes in your walls) is to set up your speakers in the correct, final position in the room, then set up your measurement mic at the exact correct spot where the mix position will be, and run the initial REW tests. Here's how to do that: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21122 . Follow that procedure carefully, run the tests, and the results can be used to determine what initial treatment you will need. Without any doubt it will include massive bass trapping in the front and rear corners, deep absorption across the entire rear wall, a ceiling cloud, panels on the front wall between the speakers and the wall, and panels on the first reflection points. That goes without saying. After you install each of those, do another REW test, so you can check that the device is working correctly, and see if it has revealed other issues that were not visible before, due to being masked.

Quote:
I get that if I know where my desk placement will be, I can handle the reflection points.
Let me understand this: The room sis completely built, and you don't yet know where your desk will be? How is that possible? How did you determine your sight lines? How did you determine your speaker location? How did you determine where you could put your doors and windows? All of that needs to have the desk location correct first....

Yes, there's always a little room for adjustment of the desk, after doing the full set of initial REW tests to confirm, but the final position won't be far from the calculated original location.

In any event, your desk location is already fixed and unmovable, because the room is already built. There's no guessing at this point: just put it where it has to go, according to the normal rules. Ditto for your speakers: their location is also fixed now, and you have no choice about that. Once again, because the room is already built. So just set up the speakers and listening position in the only locations where they can go now, and live with it.

Quote:
But what about the room modes, etc.. Is there a way to calculate this and apply treatment to help with these situations?
It's waaaay too late for that! Calculating room mode distribution is part of the room design! It's what you do to calculate the length, width, and height of the control room. Since your room is already completely built, there is zero you can do to modify the modal distribution. What you SHOULD have done at the start, is to use one of these Room Ratio calculators to figure out the best dimensions for your room:

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

http://amroc.andymel.eu/

Both of those are very good, and would have helped you to decide how best to build your room. They give you tons of information that is really useful to help figure out the best dimensions.

But you already built the room without checking, so now you have to live with what you've got. You can still use those calculators to find out what your distribution is, but there's nothing you can do to change it now. The only option you have is to damp the modes as best possible. REW will reveal what your actual modal response is. That might be a bit different from what the calculators predict, due to the construction accuracy, materials, speakers, etc. But it won't be far off.

So, your option here is massive bass trapping in the room corners. But you put doors in some of the corners, so that's going to be yet another problem... you can't put bass trapping where the doors are, obviously, because you need to open the doors! Yet another reason why you should have designed the room completely before building it.

Quote:
If there are any acousticians in the Orlando area pleeease hit me up.
It's probably not a good idea to put out a public call like that on a forum! Who knows what response you might get! Anybody and their dog might respond to you, with no acoustical qualifications at all.

In any case, you do NOT need a local acoustician to fix your room: you can hire someone from anywhere in the world to do that. Thanks to the Internet and all the great software tools freely available, there's no longer any need for your studio designer / acoustician to physically visit the site. Pretty much all of my acoustic design work is done by "remote control". Some customers still do want site visits, and in a very, very few cases it can be advisable, but it's an added expense that the vast majority of studio projects do not need. All of the examples I have linked to above were done totally by "remote", for both the design stage and also supervision of the actual build. For example, with Studio Three, that was done entirely remotely: I have never met Rod (the owner), nor even spoken to him on the phone: everything was done entirely by e-mail. And you can see how that turned out. Ditto with this room: He and I have never met in person, I have never been to his studio location, and we have never spoke on the phone. And you can see how that is working out. In fact, it is rare that I actually visit the site of a studio that I'm "building". I will certainly do that if the customer wants me to, but really it isn't necessary, and it would add extra costs to the project. As long as the customer can take accurate measurements and follow a 3D design well, then it is entirely possible. I have designed studios all around the world, successfully like this, and also helped numerous forum members with their designs and room tuning, entirely remotely.

If you do get a response by PM from someone who claims that they can fix your studio, then be vary, VARY wary about that. We have seen some evidence on the forum over the past few years that some unscrupulous folks are scanning threads like yours to find unsuspecting victims, then contacting the forum members to offer their dubious "services", and ending up with lousy rooms, or just being scammed out of their money with no design at all! BEWARE! If you want design services for your studio, then contact John Sayers first of all, directly by PM. It's his forum, and that's what he does for a living! PM him, and ask him to quote.

Quote:
I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions.
I would start by stopping! In other words, don't do ANYTHING else to your rooms, until you have had professional advice on how to fix it. There's a lot that is right about your studio, but a lot that is wrong too. You need to have someone analyze what is wrong, guide you through the process to fix that, then guide you through the treatment and room tuning process. If you carry on in the same way you have been proceeding so far, this is not going to work out well.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:36 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
What exactly are we looking at in those photos? I see a mix of isolated coupled single-leaf walls with other decoupled poorly isolated walls. Some photos show what seems to be the final inner-leaf of your rooms, but on the other hand that can't be right, because there are numerous huge holes where cables, electrical outlets, switch boxes and light boxes are poking through... :shock: that makes no sense. You CANNOT have holes in your isolation walls. :!: If there's a hole, even a tiny one, then you have no isolation. Did you look at the charts, tables, and graphs that show just how much isolation you lose from having a single small hole in your wall? You have numerous LARGE holes....

So before you do anything else, you'll have to fix that problem. Remove all the electrical boxes, plug up the holes with the usual drywall patching techniques, seal it all up air tight, and bring in your electrical feed properly, through one single penetration using the correct procedure for that, then install your proper surface-mount electrical system.

This was a major mistake. Your electrician should have known better. Either he doesn't know because he has never wired a studio before (which means it was a mistake to hire him in the first place, if he has no studio experience), or he does know but doesn't care. But whatever it was, it MUST be fixed.

So that's the first thing you need to do: get rid of all those holes! Major, huge, big problem. Fix that, then you can carry on with the rest.

Once you have done that, put your windows and doors in. You cannot test the acoustic response of the room until it is totally sealed up, completely air-tight, so you need the windows sealed in place, and the doors properly mounted with all of their seals, in addition to fixing the electrical seal problem.


To answer your question... EVERY single hole you and box you see has acoustic putty and acoustic sealant on BOTH layers. SO I can assure you its pretty well sealed.


Quote:
You already HAVE your wall surface! Your walls are built conventionally, not inside-out, so what is visible in the photos IS the final wall surface! There's nothing more you can do to that. It is your final surface. You'll probably want to sand, seal, and paint it properly, but that's it. There is no more "surfacing" required. If you would have built your rooms using the "inside out" technique, that would be a different story, and there would be many options open to you for other finishes, but since you chose to do it conventionally, the only option you have is normal drywall finishing.


My intention in the live room is to have a mixture of reclaimed wood and OC 703 covered by fabric. But of course pending the results of the tests.

Quote:
Ive heard Drywall is the enemy... So... Im looking into the fabric and the tracks to put up.
I don't get that either: What fabric? What tracks? Why is drywall "the enemy". It's a pretty good wall surface for a studio, actually! It's only an "enemy" if the rooms were not designed with drywall finish in mind. Who told you that drywall is the enemy? What reasons did they give you for making such a silly statement?

Ok... Maybe they were incorrect.. Got it.

Quote:
After speaking with a company who provides the track, his advice was to place furring strips and use 1x4 strip along the drywall.
For what purpose? I'm just not understanding what the design concept is here. Please post your actual original design, so I can get a better idea of what the plan is here. What design concept did you use for your control room? Which of those rooms IS the control room? I can't see any that make sense for use as a control room...

Because the ceiling are angled, my framer basically made the room a rectangle. Look... I knew that after he was done I would have alot of acoustic panelling modifications to do. I built the 2 leaf walls like that to isolate me from the tenants to my left and right. The two examples you sent me are guys with their isolated buildings with no one beside them.

Quote:
Then place everything I wanted to mount on the ceiling and walls ON the furring/wood strips.
Why do you think you need furring strips? Why do you think you need fabric? Are you aware that proper acoustic fabric is designed to be almost TRANSPARENT to sound, and do nothing to it, or only affect it minimally? Why do you want to put up something on your walls that has no effect? And why do you want a 3/4" empty gap from the furring strips between the fabric and the drywall? What acoustic purpose are you hoping that would serve?

I was asking for ADVICE as it pertains to this. NOTHING is set in stone. I didnt necessarily "want" the gap. I am trying to figure it out.

Quote:
Then place everything I wanted to mount on the ceiling and walls ON the furring/wood strips. That way it sits on TOP of the fabric.
Why do you not want to mount your acoustic panels in the normal, common, ubiquitous manner? Is there something wrong with your wall studs and ceiling joists, that you can't use them to support your treatment? I'm really getting very confused about your whole build here: nothing seems to make sense.

There is NOTHING wrong with the walls/studs, etc.. It can support anything I decide to put up.

Quote:
I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions.
I would start by stopping! In other words, don't do ANYTHING else to your rooms, until you have had professional advice on how to fix it. There's a lot that is right about your studio, but a lot that is wrong too. You need to have someone analyze what is wrong, guide you through the process to fix that, then guide you through the treatment and room tuning process. If you carry on in the same way you have been proceeding so far, this is not going to work out well.[/quote]

To be honest... I appreciate the feedback. What I dont appreciate is the demeaning tone in which it seems you wrote your replies. I came on here because I am looking for GUIDANCE from likeminded people trying to build or enhance their spaces. NOT to be ridiculed. Either way.. Thank you. I will proceed to find help and guidance.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:20 am 
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Hi Lemy!
Quote:
To answer your question... EVERY single hole you and box you see has acoustic putty and acoustic sealant on BOTH layers. SO I can assure you its pretty well sealed.

The penetration concern that Stuart pointed out wasn't just the seal, but the mass as well. The acoustic putty you applied must match the same surface density as the drywall. It appears you used two layers of 5/8" drywall which would total roughly 21.4 kg/m^2. You could check the specifications of your putty to figure out how thick it would need to be to achieve this density. If you compromise your wall's surface density anywhere, you've trashed your isolation. The real solution to wall penetrations for electrical boxes like you have would be to build boxes out of material such as MDF (matching the drywall's surface density) and enclose the electrical boxes. Seal the hell out of it with acoustic sealant and putty then fill any voids with insulation.
Quote:
My intention in the live room is to have a mixture of reclaimed wood and OC 703 covered by fabric. But of course pending the results of the tests.

I recommend that you read the Master Handbook Of Acoustics as it will answer your question about what your rooms need. It's an awesome book! For the live room, yes, it's great to take measurements, but you should be able to get a rough idea of the treatment you'll need by calculating the amount of absorption you'll need to hit your target reverberation time! If you can afford the extra expense and time to build them, variable acoustic devices are awesome as you can totally change the sonic character of your room. Personally, for years I recorded drums in the same room. I tried moving gobos around but overall, the room still had it's finger print all over the tracks. It's exciting to think that you can make your room sound like so many different spaces using these devices!
Quote:
Because the ceiling are angled, my framer basically made the room a rectangle. Look... I knew that after he was done I would have alot of acoustic panelling modifications to do. I built the 2 leaf walls like that to isolate me from the tenants to my left and right. The two examples you sent me are guys with their isolated buildings with no one beside them.

We all work with the spaces we are given. John Sayer's inside out design is brilliant and when you can use it, you should. But there is not much harm in building your rooms using conventional methods. Like you said, it just means a lot more treatment is often necessary. The only downside to your method I see is that you didn't use OSB under the drywall which means you will be limited as to where you can anchor treatment devices. In your framer's defence, compound angles make building things a zillion times harder.

I don't see any HVAC penetrations. What is your design for HVAC?
Quote:
I was asking for ADVICE as it pertains to this. NOTHING is set in stone. I didnt necessarily "want" the gap. I am trying to figure it out.

Don't worry about fabric yet. Maybe all you need is a bunch of 2'x4' acoustic panels and you can staple fabric on the back side of your panel's frame.
A very common method of getting fabric on walls or ceilings is to build frames out of small lumber (like 1x2 dimensional lumber) and staple the fabric on the back side of it. Then just brad nail the frames onto whatever they are covering. OR you can staple fabric onto wherever and cover up the seams with some finishing wood.
Quote:
There is NOTHING wrong with the walls/studs, etc.. It can support anything I decide to put up.

Awesome. You built your rooms fully de-coupled? Your large room looks pretty large. What did you end up using for your ceiling joists? When you got the approval from the structural engineer, what live and dead loads did you pass with your design? This is important for us to know because it will ultimately determine what devices you can mount on your ceiling (things like diffusers can get really heavy).
Quote:
To be honest... I appreciate the feedback. What I dont appreciate is the demeaning tone in which it seems you wrote your replies. I came on here because I am looking for GUIDANCE from likeminded people trying to build or enhance their spaces. NOT to be ridiculed. Either way.. Thank you. I will proceed to find help and guidance.

Don't take Stuart's response as having a demeaning tone. This forum is here to guide people; to help them learn. Pointing out wrong doings and ignorance is his way of teaching. I was once in your shoes. Now I'm the one pointing things out with peoples designs! We are happy to answer questions and make suggestions. Just have faith that the forum members who answer questions and contribute are typically sharing their knowledge and only telling you the bad news because they care. I see you've been a member for quite a while and therefore I'm sure you've read a million responses that come across as demeaning. Unfortunately, now you're the one receiving the eye opening responses. And that's a good thing!

I hope this made you feel better. Your place looks like it has a ton of potential. Again, I'd suggest you read that book (there's a free PDF of it if you google it), adjust your SketchUp model to include some potential treatments and share them with us! Are you planning on soffit mounting your speakers?

Greg

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:51 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
The penetration concern that Stuart pointed out wasn't just the seal, but the mass as well. The acoustic putty you applied must match the same surface density as the drywall. It appears you used two layers of 5/8" drywall which would total roughly 21.4 kg/m^2. You could check the specifications of your putty to figure out how thick it would need to be to achieve this density. If you compromise your wall's surface density anywhere, you've trashed your isolation. The real solution to wall penetrations for electrical boxes like you have would be to build boxes out of material such as MDF (matching the drywall's surface density) and enclose the electrical boxes. Seal the hell out of it with acoustic sealant and putty then fill any voids with insulation.

Ahh ok gotcha. I will check that. I got the ones from Acoustic Solutions, but thats cool. Either way... Ive said F the neighbors at this point. lol Ive put too much time, money and energy into this build.

Gregwor wrote:
I recommend that you read the Master Handbook Of Acoustics as it will answer your question about what your rooms need. It's an awesome book! For the live room, yes, it's great to take measurements, but you should be able to get a rough idea of the treatment you'll need by calculating the amount of absorption you'll need to hit your target reverberation time! If you can afford the extra expense and time to build them, variable acoustic devices are awesome as you can totally change the sonic character of your room. Personally, for years I recorded drums in the same room. I tried moving gobos around but overall, the room still had it's finger print all over the tracks. It's exciting to think that you can make your room sound like so many different spaces using these devices!

I'll look it up and purchase. Thanks for the suggestion.

Gregwor wrote:
I don't see any HVAC penetrations. What is your design for HVAC?

I am using the Mini Split units. The location I have doesn't allow the large A/C Compressor units outside.

Gregwor wrote:
Don't worry about fabric yet. Maybe all you need is a bunch of 2'x4' acoustic panels and you can staple fabric on the back side of your panel's frame.
A very common method of getting fabric on walls or ceilings is to build frames out of small lumber (like 1x2 dimensional lumber) and staple the fabric on the back side of it. Then just brad nail the frames onto whatever they are covering. OR you can staple fabric onto wherever and cover up the seams with some finishing wood.

Ok... When I mentioned the Fabric Track system in my first post.. It was just one of the methods I read about for placing fabric over the acoustic insulation. The post he sent me to did have the gentleman using the method you described. Thats probably where I will end up after the REW measurements are taken.

Gregwor wrote:
Awesome. You built your rooms fully de-coupled? Your large room looks pretty large. What did you end up using for your ceiling joists? When you got the approval from the structural engineer, what live and dead loads did you pass with your design? This is important for us to know because it will ultimately determine what devices you can mount on your ceiling (things like diffusers can get really heavy).

Yes. The walls are fully decoupled and Green Glue on a few of the walls. (My drywall guy was getting fed up) :roll: I have an LVL in the middle of both rooms with 2 x 10 joists attached on both sides. They assured me it can hold WHATEVER load I decide put on it. They told me the idea was overkill, but I insisted.

Gregwor wrote:
Don't take Stuart's response as having a demeaning tone. This forum is here to guide people; to help them learn. Pointing out wrong doings and ignorance is his way of teaching. I was once in your shoes. Now I'm the one pointing things out with peoples designs! We are happy to answer questions and make suggestions. Just have faith that the forum members who answer questions and contribute are typically sharing their knowledge and only telling you the bad news because they care. I see you've been a member for quite a while and therefore I'm sure you've read a million responses that come across as demeaning. Unfortunately, now you're the one receiving the eye opening responses. And that's a good thing!

I hope this made you feel better. Your place looks like it has a ton of potential. Again, I'd suggest you read that book (there's a free PDF of it if you google it), adjust your SketchUp model to include some potential treatments and share them with us! Are you planning on soffit mounting your speakers?

Ignorance would be if he told me in a discussion before, yet I still did it. :| Either way... I really respect everyone on here and I am looking forward to the constructive criticism and help I was hoping for. I don't have SketchUp, but I will gladly download, take the time to measure, and share the info. I loved the idesa of Soffit mounting, but on the right corner is where the door was placed. So I believe I am unable to.

BTW... THANK YOU for your response.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:10 am 
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Quote:
Ahh ok gotcha. I will check that. I got the ones from Acoustic Solutions, but thats cool. Either way... Ive said F the neighbors at this point. lol Ive put too much time, money and energy into this build.

Just realize that if you don't comply with your city bylaws, they can legally shut you down at which point you've REALLY wasted your time, money and energy!

Quote:
I am using the Mini Split units. The location I have doesn't allow the large A/C Compressor units outside.

Cool, pun intended!

What about your ventilation system (30% fresh air)? Like your electrical penetrations, your silencer boxes sleeves need to have the same surface density as the wall that is it penetrating. I don't see any sleeves sticking out anywhere.

Quote:
Ok... When I mentioned the Fabric Track system in my first post.. It was just one of the methods I read about for placing fabric over the acoustic insulation. The post he sent me to did have the gentleman using the method you described. Thats probably where I will end up after the REW measurements are taken.

Track systems make great looking lines, but there's a price to pay for it! What brand was the gentleman suggesting?

Quote:
Yes. The walls are fully decoupled and Green Glue on a few of the walls. (My drywall guy was getting fed up) :roll:

That's a shame that he gave up on Green Glue after a few walls. He kind of screwed you because you can't just increase one wall's isolation and leave the rest. Your entire room works as a single system. Like a chain with one weak link -- the chain is only as strong as that one weak link. Green Glue definitely increases the transmission loss of your wall, but it's main advantage is that it really improves the shortcomings of the coincident frequency dip.

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I have an LVL in the middle of both rooms with 2 x 10 joists attached on both sides. They assured me it can hold WHATEVER load I decide put on it. They told me the idea was overkill, but I insisted.

Clearly you already passed your framing inspection (as you have drywall up). I'd go back and ask them for a figure so that you don't overload it. If they ran the numbers for you once, it's weird they didn't give you a print out with a stamp. Having said that, they shouldn't charge you for that now. Better to be safe than sorry. I'm just surprised that the framing inspector didn't ask to see that report as that's usually the first thing they ask for when they walk into a room where I live!

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Ignorance would be if he told me in a discussion before, yet I still did it. :| Either way... I really respect everyone on here and I am looking forward to the constructive criticism and help I was hoping for. I don't have SketchUp, but I will gladly download, take the time to measure, and share the info. I loved the idesa of Soffit mounting, but on the right corner is where the door was placed. So I believe I am unable to.

To echo what Stuart said, I would suggest to stop any building, model your entire build in SketchUp (ps, don't use SketchUp "Free" which is an online browser based version. It is HORRIBLE. Download the newest version of SketchUp "Make" that your computer supports). After you draw up your build, you can do your best to work around your current layout in terms of speaker placement and acoustic treatment.

Is there a reason you chose to put your control room door in the corner?

Can you flip your control room around so that you're looking the other way? Soffit mounting your speakers is the single best thing you can do to improve the acoustics of your control room. If you read that handbook I mentioned, you'll get to a later chapter where they cover RFZ control rooms and it will all make sense to you (of course you can't just skip ahead to that chapter because you won't understand the theory behind it.

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BTW... THANK YOU for your response.

My pleasure!

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:21 am 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
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To answer your question... EVERY single hole you and box you see has acoustic putty and acoustic sealant on BOTH layers. SO I can assure you its pretty well sealed.
As Greg said, sealing is not the point. That's only half of the problem.

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Because the ceiling are angled, my framer basically made the room a rectangle.
OK, but ┬┤please post the actual original design! In SketchUp if you have it, or if not then just take a picture of the actual original plans on paper, so we can see the layout, concept, dimensions, construction details, etc.

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Look... I knew that after he was done I would have alot of acoustic panelling modifications to do
But you did not DESIGN that in originally? Trying to fix design errors with treatment is not a good way to build a studio...

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I built the 2 leaf walls like that to isolate me from the tenants to my left and right.
If I understand you correctly, you built 2-leaf walls ONLY on the left and right, but did NOT build 2-leaf walls on the other sides? If that's the case, then sorry to tell you but you do not have good isolation at all. You have solid, rigid, major mechanical flanking paths that will completely bypass the "isolation" walls. Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying, but when you post the actual plans we'll be able to see for sure.

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The two examples you sent me are guys with their isolated buildings with no one beside them.
Not true, and even if that was the case, so what? You are assuming things about those designs without even asking. In both cases, they do have a need for isolation. In this case, there's a neighboring house just a few feet from his LR left wall... yet when he plays acoustic drums freaky loud in the LR, his neighbor hears nothing at all. Because I designed the studio for the level of isolation he needed. Rod has no close neighbors, but he does have major roads nearby, and does have aircraft flying over, and does have other local sound sources, so he needed high isolation too. In both cases, those customers wanted isolation BETWEEN their rooms, as well as between the studio and the surroundings. In other words, they want isolation between the live room and the control room, such that sounds from the control room do not get into the mics in the live room, and also so that the sounds from the instruments being played in the live room do not get into the control room, messing up the engineer's perception of the the sound coming form the speakers. That's what studio isolation is all about. In both of those studios, the owners also wanted to be isolated from the outside world, so that they would not be bothered by wind, rain, hail, thunder, cars, trucks, trains, aircraft, helicopters, sirens, radios, TV, dogs barking, vacuum cleaners, washing machines, water running, toilets flushing, lawn mowers, kids, and all those other sounds that can totally trash a recording session.

THAT is why you should isolate a studio! Not just so that you don't annoy a neighbor on one side or the other.
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I was asking for ADVICE as it pertains to this.
And I'm giving it to you, but you don't seem to like it...

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I didnt necessarily "want" the gap. I am trying to figure it out.
Look around the forum, especially here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5842&p=40923#p40923 ... there are numerous threads with numerous studio builds. You can probably get a lot of ideas on how to fix your rooms and treat your rooms from those.

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There is NOTHING wrong with the walls/studs, etc.. It can support anything I decide to put up.
Great! Then just attach your treatment to the studs, through the drywall.

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What I dont appreciate is the demeaning tone in which it seems you wrote your replies.
Then you are asking the wrong guy. I only design and build studios for a living, and when I point out stuff that won't work, it is in-your-face, no-holds-barred, call-it-like-it-is. My customers appreciate that, because it grabs their attention and helps them build their places as best they possibly can. I don't go pussy-footing around, beating around the bush, gently hinting at possibly, maybe, might be, perhaps. I'm not big on PC at all, and don't particularly care if my comment hurts somebody's fragile ego: If I see you did something wrong, I'll tell you straight out. If you can't take that, then you probably shouldn't be building a studio anyway!

Fact is, you did a lot of stuff wrong with your studio, and I'm, pointing it out. I get that you don't like that, for sure, because you realize now that you screwed up, big time. But that's not my fault. You could have asked way back: you've been a member for two years, and asked your first (and only) question over a year ago. You never posted your plans, or asked if what you were thinking of doing was going to work. I'm assuming you looked at many other threads over the years, and saw that people who mess up with their builds get the same style of up-front, direct advice that I'm giving you. But instead of reacting in the sensible, mature manner, and saying "Damn! I screwed up. Thanks for telling me. Now how do I fix it?", you get upset with ME, the guy who is trying to help you? Say what?

You could learn a thing or two form this guy: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17363 He screwed up even worse than you, got much more "demeaning" comments, yet took our advice seriously, maturely, ripped out his entire room and started again. And got GREAT results. And thanks us for being so frank and "demeaning" at the start! That's the sensible reaction to being told that you messed up. Attacking the messenger, the guy who is telling you what you did wrong, is probably not a good idea.

Take a close look at that thread. At least the first dozen or so posts, and the last few as well.

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I came on here because I am looking for GUIDANCE
... And you GOT IT! You just didn't like what you got. Because it showed up all of the errors you made, the lack of planning, and the lack of design. I'm betting that you won't post any plans at all, because you don't have any, and never did. Prove me wrong on that.

Making a mistake is embarrassing. I get that I make mistakes too. But when I do, I like to know about them, even though I'm fuming inside. I get it. But I'm still grateful for being corrected.

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from likeminded people trying to build or enhance their spaces.
Don't look now, but that's exactly what I do. There's about 23,000 members on the forum right now, and I've helped hundreds of them to get their rooms in shape, some of those in worse condition than yours. I do this for a living: forum members get help for free, but customers pay and get first priority. This is what I do: I "guide people to build or enhance their spaces". This is exactly what you are getting, for free in your case. In order to fix your room, we first have to identify what is wrong with it. You can't fix something if you don't know that it is broken, or why it is broken, or in what way it is broken. That's what we are trying to determine: In what way is your studio broken, so we can help you fix it.

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NOT to be ridiculed.
I'm not ridiculing anyone! It's a pity that you feel that way. All I did was point out all the errors you made when you built your place. Errors that could have been avoided, if only you would have asked when you firsts joined the forum, and first starting building. If you feel humiliated, that's not my fault. I'm joist pointing out what is wrong with your room. You can either man-up and fix it, to end up with a great studio, or you can NOT do that if your sensibilities have been bruised, and end up with a lousy room. Your choice.

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the forum members who answer questions and contribute are typically sharing their knowledge and only telling you the bad news because they care.
:thu: Some call it "tough love". If I didn't cae about Len's room, I would not have bothered to spend all that time analyzing what he did, and writing all I did. Time that could have been used elsewhere...

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now you're the one receiving the eye opening responses. And that's a good thing!
Yup.

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I am using the Mini Split units. The location I have doesn't allow the large A/C Compressor units outside.
That's only heating/cooling, not ventilation. Greg was asking about your ventilation system: I don't see it at all. You DO have a ventilation system, right?

Also, you say "The location I have doesn't allow the large A/C Compressor units outside." So where are you going to put the compressor? It can't go inside! Even for a mini-split, the compressor isn't exactly small.

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I have an LVL in the middle of both rooms with 2 x 10 joists attached on both sides.
And how is the LVL supported? Since that is your inner-leaf, it CANNOT be supported on the outer-leaf walls, nor can it be in contact with anything other than the inner-leaf. Is that what you did? Please post photos of how that LVL was installed.
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Ignorance would be if he told me in a discussion before, yet I still did it.
Wrong. Ignorance would be if you thought you were doing something right but didn't ask, and ended up doing it wrong.

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really respect everyone on here and I am looking forward to the constructive criticism and help I was hoping for.
Stick around and you'll get it. You might not like the WAY you get it, but you'll get the best advice out there, for free!

One thing I can guarantee is that, even though you didn't like the WAY I said some stuff, it certainly got you thinking about WHAT I said you did, what might be wrong with it.... what you can do to fix it... and that's the point. It got your attention. And now you are wondering... mission accomplished.

The interesting thing about the forum is that those who do suck it up and take our advice, end up with spectacular studios. Those who don't... never come back! And you can bet that if there studios HAD worked out well, the certainly would have come back to rub our noses in it, telling is how great they did while ignoring our advice... yet they never do... I wonder why? :)

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I loved the idesa of Soffit mounting, but on the right corner is where the door was placed.
I hate to say it, as it might trigger your anger again, but that was a design error. If you would have designed the studio completely, and posted that in advance, we could have pointed that out to you....

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So I believe I am unable to.
Not true. You still can do it, and I can tell you how, but you just won't like it. If you truly do want to soffit.mount your speakers (which, as Greg pointed out, is the best single thing you can do for your control room anyway, hands-down), then you could take out the central window and make that into sliding glass doors (or even hinged doors, if you don't like sliders), then plug up the current doorway and build your soffits. You get better sight lines, better acoustics, better aesthetics. All of that for just a couple of days suffering, as you replace the window with a door. The soffits would go in the corners, with the door in between them. As I said, it could be a slider, or if you need a wider opening, then make it a normal hinged door with plenty of glass in it.

The door in the corner not only prevents you from building soffits, it also prevents you from building a bass trap in that corner. It's the front of the room, and since that has to be symmetrical, that means you cannot put a trap in the other front corner either. So 50% of your vertical corners are out of bounds for bass trapping. You can compensate for that by building horizontal bass traps at the tops of all your side walls and front wall. Large ones. It won't be as good, but when you have a door in the corner there aren't many other options. (I'm assuming that the entire rear wall will done as large bass traps).

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Just realize that if you don't comply with your city bylaws, they can legally shut you down at which point you've REALLY wasted your time, money and energy!
Right. There are legal limits as to how loud you can be, and that is usually measured at the property line (although some cities/countries do it differently). If you exceed the limits, and the neighbors complain, they can indeed get a court injunction to shut you down. Normally it doesn't happen right away: first you get the cops or municipal inspectors knocking in your door, politely asking you to turn it down. After that happens a few times, you might get a letter, then a fine, then more fines, and finally the injunction. I've seen it happen. So do make sure that you have enough isolation so you don't end up in that situation.

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That's a shame that he gave up on Green Glue after a few walls. He kind of screwed you because you can't just increase one wall's isolation and leave the rest.
Right. Isolation is a SYSTEM. It is "all or nothing". If you isolate three walls and the ceiling very well but only isolate the fourth wall to a lover level, then the ENTIRE isolation is only as good as that fourth wall. You wasted time, money, and effort on the rest of it. As Greg said: Isolation is only as good as the weakest link.

If you don't have enough isolation at present, then you should fix that now, while you still can.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:30 am 
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Location: Bratislava, Slovakia, EU
@lemycurrey: I want to friendly encourage you to listen to what Stuart is saying. I can totally feel your pain, as I was tearing things down more than once after being advised by Stuart :oops: . Did I feel stupid and ashamed? Well of course, but it was totally worth it! My small control room is close to finished now and the whole system sounds amazing (and the big "thank you" for making that possible goes to Stuart!).


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:03 am 
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Location: Orlando, FL
A friend of mine is helping to get the sketchup done. Ive put a link to the rough file. Is this what you'd like to see? Let me know if im on the right track. Thanks again fellas.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kksrzd0zp2p76c8/Lemy%20Studio%209-13-2018.skp?dl=0

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