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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:06 am 
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Camilo, those stands look very nice, and that's great workmanship, but please, please don't take this the wrong way: they aren't massive enough to be be good in studios. Maybe you could figure out a way of building a "box" in the center section, between the two side legs, and filling that with dry sand, in order to increase the mass? Perhaps use another piece of that same wood across the front of those two legs, then mount a large section of steel profile or large diameter PVC pipe behind that, and fill it with dry sand? That would do the trick.

But they sure do look nice! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:47 am 
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Hi Camillo,

There aren't many manufacturers that make proper stands. They are impractical to make and expensive to ship. Most people won't buy them.

A short article to read about making stands. There are two paragraphs in the middle that explain why more mass.

http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/317.html

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:58 am 
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Argosy, Raxxes, Isoacoustic to name a few. Even the metal ones from Ultimate which are pretty sturdy do not weight much. So would you consider their stands no good for studios?
In general, yes. That might sound like a pretty arrogant statement, but there are a lot of things from a lot of manufacturers that don't make much sense from the point of view of the science of acoustics, yet people still buy them and put them in their studios. They might look nice, but they don't actually make much sense, acoustically.

For example, diffusers on the walls of small studios. The very guys who originally figured out how diffusers work, discovered the equations behind them, and wrote scientific papers and books about them, make it abundantly clear that they should not be placed anywhere that would put your head too close, as you'd be in the zone where artifacts occur. Yet, there's an awful lot of tiny home studios out there that buy skylines and QRDs and Schroeders, and slap them on their back wall, thinking they have done something good for their room...

Or the even more common case of people trying to "float their floor" on 2x2s with rubber pucks and a sheet of 1/2" plywood on top, thinking that's what makes a great floor...

Or the very commonly seen situation of having small near-fields on the meter bridge of a large console...

Or any number of other things that people do to their studios, not realizing that it will make things worse, not better.

Such as using light-weight stands for their speakers.

Eric already pointed out the issue here: if Argosy were to offer speaker stands massive enough to be useful, nobody would buy them. Would you want to pay a few hundred dollars for heavy stands, then another few hundred for the shipping?

Quote:
I have visited and recorded in a few professional recording studios and have seen similar stands in use.
I'm sure you have: So have I. But that doesn't make it acoustically correct! I have also been in more than just a few studios with egg-crates on the walls and carpet on the ceiling, but that doesn't mean that its is a good idea to build a studio like that!

My philosophy is this: If I am going to all the trouble, time and expense of building a studio, then I want it to be the best it possibly can be, so I won't put anything in there that doesn't enhance the acoustics. Why would I? It makes no sense, to me, to spend a huge amount of money on building a great room, then put something in it that harms the acoustics.

Some people really don't care, I guess. Which is why you often see very questionable things in studios, that you just know are creating acoustic issues. I never have figured that out: Why would they bother building a great room if they don't care about acoustics?

Quote:
To you knowledge, which company makes adequate stands?
As one of the forum administrators, I try not to endorse specific products or manufacturers unless I have personal experience with the product in one of the studios I have designed and/or built, or the product is so well known already that my mentioning it is not an issue. And for this type of thing (speaker stands), what I normally do is to point to threads on the forum about the subject, as well as off-site articles by experts in the field, so folks can check that out, learn from what others know, and draw their own conclusions about which products are good or bad. In fact, instead of recommending that people buy stands, I normally recommend that they make them. It's not hard to do, and gives you more control over the end result.

Quote:
Is there something we need to know about mass vs. vibration when choosing a monitor stand?
In general, the more massive the stand is, the less it will vibrate itself, the lower its resonant frequencies will be, and the lower will be the transmission of vibration into the floor.

Quote:
Perhaps each stand will need to be made and calibrated to support a specific speaker model, and also take into consideration the individual speaker power and bass frequency response, to increment mass in the stand, right?
I somehow doubt you'd need to go that far! :) But in general, for a larger, heavier speaker it would be good to have a more massive stand than you'd use for a much lighter speaker. Of course, there are equations that you could use to calculate the optimum mass for each speaker, if you really wanted to to, but I don't see the need to go to that extreme.

Quote:
Is it a simple balance or a support issue?
Not really: It's an acoustic issue, and the article that Eric linked for you covers some of the points. Did you read it? Light weight stands pick up the speaker vibration themselves (even with isolation pads), and the stand vibrates in sympathy with the speaker. Meaning that you have an extra source of sound in the room, which muddies up the clarity that you would have had without it. Lightweight stands can also transmit that same vibration into the floor, making the entire floor vibrate in sympathy. And of the floor vibrates, then that can be transmitted back up the desk legs, and radiated from the desk surface, which you will hear. This is where it get's funky: since sound travels through solid objects much, much faster than it travels through air, the vibration that took that indirect path down your speaker stands and back up to the desk surface, will then reach your ears BEFORE the direct sound from the speakers, which came along much more slowly, through the air. This is sometimes called "early-early" sound, and the transmission path can be surprisingly efficient. If this occurs, then the early-early sound interferes with the direct sound, causing phase cancellation, comb filtering, and similar artifacts.

There's also the issue of resonance in the stand itself: When the music stops, the stand carries on vibrating for a short time, and therefore extends the note longer in time that it really is.

There are other, lesser issues too.

In summary, the overall effect is that light-weight stands subtract from the room acoustics, while heavy stands do not.

And having said all of the above, some of those apparently "light weight" stands you see in catalogs and studios are not light weight at all! Some are built hollow, and designed to be filled with somthing heavy, such as sand. Some people even fill their speaker stands with lead shot. So even though they LOOK light, they might actually be very heavy.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:28 am 
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:roll:

Quote:
there is nothing better than actual proof and real field tests.
I absolutely agree! So it would be great to see the results of your tests.

Quote:
I will post some tests.
I'm looking forward to that! You can download REW for free from Home Theater Shack, and the instructions that come with it are fairly simple to follow.

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No resonance, sound coloration or vibrations being transmitted to the floor, and just as they are now.
I have no doubt at all that REW will reveal the truth of that statement.

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In the case of finding appropriate solutions for home recording, we encounter the dilemma of trying to do the best with what we have, with the equipment we have, the space or the room we have, but most important, the money that we have.
Very true! That's why this forum exists: for folks who truly do want to learn how to make the best possible studio out of the room they, on whatever budget they have. Most people are really interested in learning how to do that, and following the advice given to them by the experts on the forum. Others think that they already did a fantastic job, even when their mistakes are pointed out to them, and they are told how they could greatly improve on their situation, without spending very much more money at all.

Quote:
So if I have to compensate to have a by the book, and scientifically done “great acoustic” floor
Which, surprisingly, turns out to be a solid, hard, massive, reflective surface, such as plain old bare concrete. It's hard to get cheaper than "doing nothing at all" if you already have a concrete floor. You might find these articlee interesting:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/guid ... _a_studio/ Scroll down to the part on floors.
http://realtraps.com/art_surfaces.htm


Quote:
A floating floor made with polyurethane pieces, 2x4s, and 1” plywood that are going to get me there
Here's an interesting thread that you might want to read about that: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

Quote:
I rather try to do something as bad as to nail carpet to the ceiling
Here's some interesting information about what carpet does to a studio:
Attachment:
carpet-absoprtion-graph-GOOD!!!!.jpg


Quote:
and diffusers made with 2x2’s
Here's some interesting info about that too:
http://www.rpginc.com/docs%5CTechnology ... 20Ugly.pdf

Quote:
And by the way, the studio being built in South America with this "no good" type of design for a floating floor, has the "better than nothing" type of mentality and approach. And whether a bad design or acoustically incorrect, it's 10 times better that a bare concrete floor
Well, the experts don't agree with you about that. You might want to read what happened when they did experiments on it:
http://archive.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/d ... /ir802.pdf

In reality, there is nothing better than a bare concrete floor for a studio, acoustically speaking. Ceramic tiles comes in a close second, followed by linoleum, then laminate flooring. Hardwood is a bit further down the list. All the rest are in the "also ran" category, pretty much.

Also, you might want to check my location, regarding your comments about South America and the prevalent attitudes... :)

Quote:
Maybe we should tell them is acoustically incorrect, right?
Correct, and we often do that, actually. And so do the leading magazines and experts in the industry:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep98/a ... 0tips.html Take a look at #13
http://www.bobhodas.com/speaker-placeme ... ffects.php Figure one shows why.
http://www.sweetwater.com/NearField/
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar02/a ... nitors.asp
http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com/2011/ ... akers.html
http://ezinearticles.com/?Near-Field-Sp ... id=1823047

And many more.

Like I already said: just because you frequently see something in a photo of a studio, does not mean it is a good thing to do.

Quote:
As to the placement of near field monitors, the word speaks for itself,
It doesn't, actually. That is yet another fallacy about acoustics. There is no technical definition of what makes a monitor "near field" or not. Ask six different manufacturers about that, and you'll get six different answers. In reality, "near field" and "far field" are acoustic terms that refer to the room, not the speaker. The term is defined very clearly for rooms, but is pretty meaningless for speakers. Do some research on that, and you might be surprised...

But overall, I guess I'm just a little confused about your posts: Did you come to this forum to ask advice and learn about all the ways you can make your studio the best it possibly can be, even on a limited budget? Or do you have some other agenda?

- Stuart -


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:34 am 
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I already have it thanks. ... I already had it in use.
Great! Then I look forward to seeing your MDAT file.

By the way, you should probably also take a look at the meaning of "ad hominem", which is the type of argument you are using above.

Here's a good definition: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... %20hominem

Frequently used by people who cannot refute the actual points made by someone else, so instead they resort to attacking the person.

If there is anything at all incorrect with any of the technical information I linked you to, then please do talk about that, and show me (and all the experts I cited) why we are wrong. For example, if you have good argument to make, based on scientifically valid studies, showing why concrete floors are no use for studios and badly floated floors are better, then I'd like to hear that. Or if you have a good proof that light-weight speaker stands in reality do not cause the problems that the experts attribute to them, then it would be good to see the data on that too. I'm always ready to learn something new, if someone presents me with irrefutable evidence.

You see, acoustics is about science, not opinions. Sound waves don't care what you think about them, and they don't care how big the chip is on your shoulder: they simply obey the laws of physics, just like they always have, and just like they always will, regardless of what you or anyone else might happen to think about them. So your silly attempt at trying to attack me personally won't have any effect at all on the truth of the data I presented, nor the reality of the situation: light-weight speaker stands are not the best choice for studios, because they affect the acoustics. People who really do want to get the best out of their studios should probably follow the advice of the experts and make their stands heavy, rather than wasting their energy in futile railings against people who point out their errors, and try to show them why they are wrong.

I understand that you are upset about building a really nice looking pair of speaker stands, with careful workmanship, good materials, and a nice finish, only to be told they won't do the job as well as they could if modified. I really do understand your "macho" frustration, anger and annoyance at being told your work is worthless, especially given your Latin American blood: I've lived here more than long enough to "get" the way Latin American's think, and I understand the culture pretty well, which is why I started out by asking you to please please please not take it the wrong way. Unfortunately, it seems you missed that part, and instead of taking my post as constructive criticism, trying to help you make your good looking speaker stands even better with a small modification, you instead decided to attack me and all those experts I mentioned, who all say that light-weight stands are not a good idea, and provide solid reasons to support their statements. And so far, the only evidence you can offer to the contrary is that "I see it done like that in photos". Like I said, there are lots of things in photos of studios that are just plain wrong, acoustically, but people still do it. Perhaps from ignorance, or maybe even from defiance, or just because they don't give a damn if the studio sounds great or mediocre. Whatever the reason is, that doesn't make it right! Just because someone doesn't like the laws of physics doesn't mean his studio will be immune to them! So yes, there sure are photos of many studios with speakers on the console bridge, speakers on flimsy stands, speakers mounted way too high, or too low, or in the wrong place in many different ways. That still doesn't make it right. And this is actually a common and well-known problem in the pro audio world, as you would know it you would have bothered to read any of the articles that Eric and I linked you to. Experts talk about it all the time, serious manufacturers talk about it in their manual. Magazine articles refer to it frequently. But people still do it wrong anyway, for whatever reason, so their studios are NOT what you say you want yours to be: the best it possibly can be, for the budget that you have. Maybe those guys really don't care that their studios are not the best they can be! I don't know. All I can do is to tell you that, if you really do want that for YOUR studio, then modifying your stands to make them heavier would help. Will it make a huge difference? NO. Will it make some difference? YES! But if you do ten little things to your studio that each make a small difference, then that can indeed add up to a BIG difference, and that's what "making it the best it can be" is all about. Doing all the small, simple, cheap things that can be done in almost any studio, to make many tiny improvements.

If you don't want to do that, and don't want your studio to be great, then fine, that's your decision! Nobody will arrest you for just wanting to have a mediocre studio! But ranting and raving at the people who are trying to HELP you, doesn't seem like a very constructive or useful thing to do. Telling the experts they are wrong, insulting them, deriding them, and showing your true colors on a public forum, just because someone pointed out an issue with speaker stands that you built, doesn't seem to be very constructive. If you put the same effort into fixing your room as you did into crapping on others, your room could be much better than it is!


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:38 am 
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Camilo Toledo - go away - we have no need for your antagonist attitude on this forum. Stuart gives his extensive knowledge freely and with no reward other than appreciation for his time spent and if you don't like then fuck off!

If you know better? - start your own damn forum.

I'd ban you but that is not the way this forum works unless you post spam.

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:10 am 
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It appears no one can have a different opinion here.
Wrong again. Even the experts here sometimes disagree on some aspects of studio building. But they do it politely, respectfully, and without resorting to insults. John doesn't always agree with me, and sometimes the moderators disagree with each other too, since sometimes there are different ways of building things to get to the same goal: some folks prefer one method, others prefer another, but the result is the same, and can be shown to be so, scientifically. Case in point: right now one of the members here is having difficulties with his speaker soffits. John is suggesting one way of fixing it, I am suggesting another: both will work, both have advantages and disadvantages, but you won't see me belittling John on that thread, or insulting him, and you won't see him ranting and raving at my suggestions either. It's just a polite disagreement on the best way to get to the desired end result: vibration-free front baffle.

Quote:
No one can argue with the boss or possess great different ideologies.
That's the thing: acoustics isn't an ideology; it is a science.

So, since you have had your say now, expressed your machismo, vented your rage, etc., do you have any actual evidence to offer to justify the positions that you have expressed? I mean, any valid, real, useful evidence, other than "I saw it in a photo" or "I saw it on YouTube".

You say you have a different opinion on control room design and light-weight speaker stands, and that's fine. Nobody said you can't have a different opinion! But you also said you were going to post a REW MDAT file here to prove that your opinion is correct. You said that your room sounds wonderful with with your stands in place, and is working fantastically, and you also said you would provide the REW test results file to prove it. We all agree that this would, indeed, be a good and valid proof of your claims, so I'd really like you to do that, and settle this once and for all. Post your MDAT data file, and we'll take a look at it, to see how the acoustic response of your room compares to the acoustic response of a couple of rooms that I have designed, and a couple done by forum members following the general recommendations on the forum, based on John's vast experience building world-class studios all over the planet.

By the way, where is "Chiquito Records" based? I tried googling it, but came up with nothing at all...

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:18 am 
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Quote:
Camilo Toledo - go away - we have no need for your antagonist attitude on this forum. Stuart gives his extensive knowledge freely and with no reward other than appreciation for his time spent and if you don't like then fuck off!

If you know better? - start your own damn forum.

I'd ban you but that is not the way this forum works unless you post spam.

cheer
john


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:19 am 
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Hey Camilo,

I hope your stands work out fine for you.

I built stands like yours [back when I was in the 5th grade] and I thought they were really great at the time.

I've had opportunity to learn a few things after 30+ years working Professionally in recording.

Since joining this forum to learn and build my personal Control Room, I found concepts that challenged things I thought I knew or had seen. This was not something I accepted blindly or with enthusiasm, but the MODS here provide NOT their opinion ... but links to multiple research data.

Along with that, I spent months reading through threads from other members. I asked questions and received polite responses with information that oft times exceeded my expectations AND a level of HOMEWORK that I would have to do.

But I was here to LEARN. If something didn't sound right or flew in the face of what I thought I knew, I wasn't just looking for opinions. [get plenty of those]. I want to see, read, and understand what validated research is telling us. The MODs here helped me understand.

The proof for me is the Mastering Suite I built.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:52 am 
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Still wondering about when we are going to see that REW data that proves the claims correct...

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:50 am 
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Quote:
I am never going to show you the REW data ...
:lol: :D We all knew that from the start! No surprises there... And we all know why, too: If your results really were anywhere near as good as you claimed, you'd be happy to show them, just to prove all the experts here wrong! It's pretty clear that if you had even the vaguest smidgeon of data proving you right, you'd be all over the forum, rubbing our faces in it, and yelling "I told you so!". But since you already know (just like we do) that the results are pretty darn lousy, and that they match our predictions perfectly, you don't dare show them.

At least you were honest enough to admit that you don't want your results seen publicly... And that's fine! I really don't care if you do or do not show them now: the mere fact of your adamantly refusing to show them is all the proof I needed...

Quote:
you are going to analyze it as you please,
Well, you see, that's the thing about acoustics: it is a science, not an emotion. Analyzing the results of an acoustic test is objective, not subjective. It doesn't matter if I "please" to analyze it one way or another, the results speak for themselves, despite any bias on the part of the person doing the analysis. Either you have modal problems, or you don't. Either you have early reflections or you don't. Either you have SBIR artifacts, or you don't. Either you have comb filtering or you don't. All of these will be crystal clear in the REW data, and easy to see, or not see if they aren't there. But I'm betting that they are there, highly visible, and plain as daylight... Which is the real reason you don't want us to see them.

Quote:
it is not for you to decide.
Too late! I already decided... :) Because I have a pretty decent handle on how speaker placement and room acoustics work together, I don't even need to see the data to know what it is saying... Eric is even more of an expert on speakers than I am, and I'm certain he knows even better than I do what the REW data is showing, without needing to see it, and despite your empty threats.


By the way, where is "Chiquito Records" based? I tried googling it, but Google came up with nothing at all. It doesn't seem to exist...


- Stuart -

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:11 am 
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Suggestion for everyone following this thread: Please don't feed the troll any more! He's done more than enough damage to his own reputation already, so there's no need to encourage him to damage it even more. (But the thread is not locked, so he can continue to do that all by himself, if he so pleases.)

- Stuart -

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:58 pm 
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That's it - I've had enough of this rude idiot. He's been banned and all posts removed.

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 Post subject: Re: Monitor Stands
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Interesting thing, I learned so much from the replies by soundman and the others.


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