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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:23 am 
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Location: Milton Keynes, UK
I have started a new thread as my last one has changed quite a lot.

I am building a small studio for Electronic music production also housing my record collection and DJ gear.
It is a Garage which is brick built with block internal walls single skin. I am building a room with in a room and hope to achieve a half decent level of sound reduction so I don’t bother my neighbors.
I have started my build and can only work on it when am not at work so it’s a SLOW build!

Construction has started.

Current status:
Concrete floor, 4” min thick, Roof is tiles with a Half A frame as my Garage is adjoined to 5 others.
Standard Garage door at the front. I cannot remove this so have to live with trying to bulk it up somehow. My wall plates are 6X2 with 4x2 studs. I have a top plate of 6x2 on top of this to tie it together. The frame is anchored to the floor with 135mm hammer in fixings with bolts every 600mm The studs are 600mm centers. I will be using mineral insulation within the studs with a chicken wire backing to keep the airgap from the existing structure and to stop any risk of condensation. In the UK we do cold & wet really well.
The building is very well ventilated and cannot be airtight due to the design. The roof has wool insulation and around the eves air lots of ventilation holes. SO my room needs to perform as well as possible.

To Do:

My ceiling joists will rest on the top of the frame and will tie together the top of the frame. I will be using 18mm OSB for my first layer on the walls and ceiling the 15mm plasterboard with Green Glue between the sheets. My internal door will be make from solid wood and I am having the frame made by a chippy in-situ once I get the room cladded with board.

My ventilation system is still in design I plan to have a mini split which will be small only 2kW as my room is only 21 m3 so it will still be overkill but I cannot get smaller. For ventilation, I am planning to use 4” ducting with a plenum box and possibly an inline fan extracting. I will replicate the ducting and box for the inlet but this will be passive. I have worked out I need to move 21m3 every 10 minutes so only 0.3 m/s are required unless I am very wrong.

Treatment of the room will be happening once its built and I can analyze it as I have an odd shape and unfortunately a number of large items in there for my record collection and DJ equipment will be messing with the acoustics.
For electrics, I am putting a new consumer unit with 3 circuits. One for Aircon and vent fan, one for Equipment and one for Lighting. Lighting will be LED tensionwire 12v using a dimmable power supply. The mains will enter the room near the aircon and I am using Dado trunking to house the power sockets and cat 6 cabling.

My biggest concern is my Garage door. The end wall of my new room has around a 2 ft gap and this will be plaster boarded both sides. I plan to closeup any gaps and use some kind of insulation to stop the door vibrating in the wind I know its never going to be airtight and its only a few mm steel anyway.

Anyway any comments or things I might of missed do please let me know.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:30 am 
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Quick question for anyone that can advise.

I need to make this "inset" strong, is it better to but up against my door wall or have the door wall butt against it?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:33 am 
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The studio is slowly coming along. I can tell you lifting a 200+ kg wall is no joke. Once that one is fitted with the next 2 layers of plasterboard will weigh well over 500kg thats just 1 wall haha


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:58 am 
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more work today, got a builder friend in now as my progress is too slow,

Firedoor ,new frame, neoprene, backer rod have all arrived.

Plaster board and RWA45 ordered for tuesday so things should ramp up now.

We have the 3 walls fixed, sealed and backed with Plasterboard, used acoustic expanding foam on the garage door, moved some electrics around, monday we will finish the roof joists then tuesday is insulate and plaster board day, just waiting for greenglue confirmation. I will have to only have 1 tube per sheet but its better than none at all maybe the cost of 2-4db.
Ventilation will be a 160m3 4" 24db extractor fan located in the roof space, I will need to build my boxes. Aircon will come around november as this is all on a budget and im £2000 in already. Acoustic treatment will be around the same time.

I will save the UK people some serious looking for cheap insulation and say that Travisperkins do RWA45 for 11.89 per pack 2.88m2 and deleivery is free.
I have got my supplier to match the price and most places will do the same. I hate to think of the markup if they can drop prices like that.

Got 28 sheets of 15mm plaster board and 13 packs of rwa for £383 inc VAT which is pretty good. The real shame is a friend can get me over 30 sheets for free but not sure when I can take them so I had to bit the bullet. even had the van on site the other day but they said they needed more time to make sure they did not need them :(


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:04 am 
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updated design without plasterboard


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:09 am 
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progress today the plasterboard and RWA45 arrived, we got the ceiling up 2 layers with greenglue and fully insulated, i started to insulate the walls but I have come up to an issue with the 100mm rwa, the double stud i have on a 150mm plate, the stud on the alternate side is making the rwa bulge and I cannot get the PB over it.

has anyone come up with a solution, i have cut a notch out on one as a test but it does not help.

btw way my pictures are aways turned around on here no idea why,


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:04 am 
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Quote:
the stud on the alternate side is making the rwa bulge and I cannot get the PB over it.
That's because you are doing your insulation wrong! Where did you find that plan? Your insulation is way too thick, your are using roll not batt, and therefore you are leaving empty air voids inside the wall, where your insulation snakes past the studs, in addition to having it much, much too thick.

This is the correct way to do it:

Attachment:
how-to-do-insulation-in-staggered-stud-walls.jpg


Use thinner insulation, use batts (not roll).

Assuming that you are using 2x4 studs on a 2x6 base, you would need 2" thick insulation, or maybe 2-1/2" if you can get them. That means you'd have 4" (or 5") of insulation where the two batts overlap, and 2" where the studs are.

Quote:
the double stud i have on a 150mm plate,
OK, so you are metric, not imperial. Scratch the above: I'm assuming you have 38x89mm studs, and 150x38 sole plate. Therefore you have 61mm gap between the stud and the drywall (150-89=61): Whatever made you think you could get 100mm of insulation into a 61mm gap? :roll: Of COURSE it won't fit!!

Take that insulation back to the store, and buy the proper 50mm insulation, or maybe 75 mm if you can get something like "pink fluffy" fiberglass insulation, which is soft and can be compressed a bit without flanking. That will give you 100mm thickness where the layers overlap between the studs (or 150mm if you get 75mm insulation).

If you do get 75 mm, then it MUST be the soft, fluffy type, NOT the rigid type. Compressing 75mm into 61mm is a bit less than 20% compression, and that's the limit! Never compress insulation more than 20%- If your studs are larger than 38x89, then you cannot use 75mm insulation: it will have to be 50mm.

Quote:
btw way my pictures are aways turned around on here no idea why,
Use any picture editing software to rotate them correctly before posting.


- Stuart -


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Thanks for the reply Stuart.

They are batts not roll.
Taking back the 10 bags of rwa45 batt is not an option. I will have to sell them on.

We do not have the pink fluffy insulation in the uk. We have earthwool acoustic roll. But that is only 10kg m3 density.

I will see what the supplier can do but i doubt it will be returnable.

The studs are 47 x 100 on the 150mm base, so the gap between the alternate studs where the stud / insulation overlaps is 53mm

I used the NRC-Noise-Transmission-Loss-Report TL-93-225


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:07 am 
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I have managed to sell the remaining rwa45.

Can someone give advice in the UK of what I should use here, Stuart as said previously we do not have many options. normally "loft" insulation such as earthwool

http://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/produc ... ft-roll-44

the thinner 50mm RWA 45 45kg m3
http://www.buildingmaterials.co.uk/rock ... 5kgm3.html

"acoustic" roll minimum density 10kg m3
http://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/produc ... ustic-roll

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Quote:
I used the NRC-Noise-Transmission-Loss-Report TL-93-225
TL-93-225 (and also the rather different TL-93-434 that you showed a diagram for) were both done with low density fiberglass insulation, around 12 kg/m3. You are using much higher density mineral wool insulation, so your situation is not comparable. It is not possible to extrapolate testing from one set of building materials to another set of building materials with very different properties. I could not find any test cases in IR-761 regarding 45 kg/m3 mineral wool with wood studs. They only seem to have tested it with metal studs. Not sure why...

Quote:
the thinner 50mm RWA 45 45kg m3 http://www.buildingmaterials.co.uk/rock ... 5kgm3.html
That's probably your best bet, assuming that it is soft or semi-rigid. The data sheet doesn't say... if it is rigid, then that's not the stuff you want. It has to be soft, flexible, easily compressible. So I'd suggest that you go take a look at it in person, and see how soft or hard it might be.

Quote:
"acoustic" roll minimum density 10kg m3 http://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/produc ... ustic-roll
That MIGHT be OK too, but seeing as the manufacturer has chosen to not provide any acoustic specifications at all, I'd be VERY suspicious! There must be a reason why they advertise it as "acoustic" yet deliberately and very noticeably did not provide a single useful piece of acoustic data or specifications or testing or lab reports, or ANYTHING about that product. In my book, that raises major red flags, so you should probably steer well clear of that stuff. It might be worthwhile giving them a call and asking for the acoustic specs, especially considering that the do advertise it as "acoustic"! If they can't or won't give you the specs, or if they give you the run around, then drop it like a red hot cannon ball, and forget it. At the very least you'd want the coefficients of absorption for the standard frequency bands, or the gas flow resistivity (a.k.a. "air flow resistivity"). Better still would be an actual test report from a reputable independent acoustic laboratory. I'm very surprised that company would openly advertise a product as being "acoustic", then provide zero information on the actual acoustic properties! It's a pity, because the type of material and density seem to be useful, but without actual test specs, it's hard to say...

Quote:
http://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/produc ... ft-roll-44
Ditto. Same as above. No acoustic data, yet the product is advertised as acoustic? :?: :shock: :roll:

Your safest bet is with the Rockwool stuff. At least they do provide the gas flow resistivity, and the number they give is fine for what you want.

Quote:
The studs are 47 x 100 on the 150mm base, so the gap between the alternate studs where the stud / insulation overlaps is 53mm
For maximum effect, you could probably fit three layers of 50mm insulation in there: one layer on each "side", which would in front of the studs perfectly, and the third layer in between those two. You'd probably have to cut those "meat in the sandwich" strips by hand, to get them to fit, and it would not be a fun job, but completely filling the cavity is a great way of maximizing isolation. Worthwhile!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:45 pm 
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Thanks stuart. The rwa45 is quite rigid. It does compress a bit but breaks up like a biscuit. I think its the uk equivalent of rockwool safe n sound.

I will give earthwool / knauf a call tomorrow and see what i can find out. They are big players in the uk so would hope they have some details.

The loft insulation is super cheap and sold everywhere. It is very fluffy. Again I will check with knauf and see.

The other common type is isover. They do not publish any acoustic data either.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:26 am 
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So far from knauf. I have asked for the 10kg m3 detail


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:09 am 
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update time.

I am still waiting for my door to be fitted, I have it ready. The first layer of plasterboard is up and I decided to take some measurements with REW and my UMIK1 before I put the second layer and greenglue on the walls (Ceiling is done)



Its not pretty i must say. I have the materials for 5 X 2 meter tall 100mm RWA45 bass traps 500mm wide for the 5 corners.


I wanted to see how much isolation I have without the internal door too so I can see / hear the difference once its all done. Its working out if I have 90db in the room with bassy music playing outside is approx 60db. background noise is 51db currently day time. obviously its louder near the outer door as this has not been seal yet

I used Earthwool omnifit bat to fill my 150mm cavities and it was nice and cheap and easy to work with even though I had to do 3 layers of 50mm bat.

Here is the mdat from my very rudimentary first test with my unfinished untreated room. as I say its not pretty

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxsYLV ... sp=sharing


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:56 am 
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For some reason, your photos are upside down! Either that, or you live in Australia... :)

Quote:
Here is the mdat from my very rudimentary first test with my unfinished untreated room. as I say its not pretty
"not pretty" would be fine, but to me it looks like your test data is not valid! That data does not seem to come from a totally empty, completely untreated room with those dimensions. I'm not sure what you tested, but it wasn't that room, empty!

Also, why did you only run your test from 30 Hz to 20 kHz? You need to run it at least through the full spectrum, and I prefer to go 10% beyond: 18 Hz to 22 kHz.

And finally, you only seem to have run the test with both speakers on together: you should run one test with just the left speaker on, one with just the right, and one with both.

A while back, I wrote a post on how to use REW, and you might find it useful. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21122



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:49 am 
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No matter how i edit the pictures they go upside down on here. Its a exif bug with phpbb.

Anyway. Yes the room does have 10 layers of plasterboard and some insualtion laying around. I will take my measurements without them in when the weather improves. Nice guide Stuart can you explain the 60 degree tilt for me? All great advice

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