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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:15 am 
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Great work dude!

Greg

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:12 am 
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Thanks man!

I'm getting better and better with sketchup so it's not all wasted time haha.

I'm really glad things are starting to line up. Next steps for me is to redo all my Equivalent Length calculations and confirm all is good and hopefully start building the two silencers for the Control Room this weekend. Quick note fresh-air wise, I think I've found a suitable HRV unit that can be hooked up to my future ducts. https://www.venmar.ca/106-air-exchangers-k10-hrv.html. I'll be going shopping at some point but this doesn't stop me from making some progress with the Control Room.

I'm also still trying to understand what Stuart meant by:
Quote:
double up on the baffle thickness at entry and exit: Imagine tracing a straight-line path directly from the duct entry point to the register outlet point, and seeing how many obstructions you hit, and how thick they are. If all you find is one thin layer of MDF, then you should do something about that!

Attachment:
S45-SILENCER-D3-L.png

I drew some lines as Stuart mentioned but I'm not sure what I'm suppose to be looking at and also not sure which baffles should be thicker....do you mean the wood needs to be thicker/doubled up or the duct liner?

Thanks,


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:33 pm 
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In case I did understand what was being recommended, I drafted yet a few other examples of the silencer box I plan to use. The last one on the right is the one posted about above for the CR. The two others have longer pathways where the baffles really doesn't allow for a straight line to be drawn from inlet to outlet register. I'm thinking the design in the middle is suitable and "should" work fine but if you feel the last one on the left is even better then I'll just do that haha.

Attachment:
S45-SILENCER-D5.png


I also went to pickup some 10" round ducts and fittings to make sure everything will fit and line up as planned. I'm going to start marking down on the floor where all the bottom plates will go so that I can have an idea of where the ducts will run.

Enjoy the weekend folks! It's -47 with the windchill here in Ottawa..I'm going to try and stay warm and maybe start to build me some silencer boxes. 8)

Cheers,

Francis,


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:43 pm 
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I'm also still trying to understand what Stuart meant

The baffle dividers themselves can be 1/2" MDF, but if you had an entry and exit right next to one another like my design:
Attachment:
Weird Silencer.jpg

Then as you can see, I doubled up my 1/2" MDF where the sound could possibly make it's way through directly to the outlet. I personally don't see where there would be an issue like this in your design short of your exterior shell needing to maintain the mass of your leaves (two layers of 5/8" drywall = ~1" MDF).

Quote:
In case I did understand what was being recommended, I drafted yet a few other examples of the silencer box I plan to use. The last one on the right is the one posted about above for the CR. The two others have longer pathways where the baffles really doesn't allow for a straight line to be drawn from inlet to outlet register. I'm thinking the design in the middle is suitable and "should" work fine but if you feel the last one on the left is even better then I'll just do that haha.

The left one looks like the cross sectional area around the ends of the baffles shrinks down due to the angled top. Corners like that are where you can benefit from oversized cross sectional area to help with pressure drop. I think the middle design would be great!

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Enjoy the weekend folks! It's -47 with the windchill here in Ottawa.

Woah! I'm in Canada too but we are only at -6 and with wind chill feels like -11 which is way too cold for my liking! Get warm dude!

Greg


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:06 pm 
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Ok! I see what you're saying! Thanks man!

So I'll use the middle design then :)

So I just realized something, most of the time when there's talk of any lumber and sizes...1" is really 3/4", and a 2 x 4 is really 1.5 x 3.5. I bought some 3/4" (actual size) MDF as that's the thickest they had at the store. Do I really need to go to exactly 1" thick? If so would I be safe to just add an additional 1/4" glue over the 3/4" all around?. I guess worst case I'm sure I can make use of the 3/4" MDF somewhere else in the studio....maybe a desk haha.

Francis,


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:54 pm 
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I have a quick question about my duct design, I'm fairly sure I know the answer to this but I'll risk asking it anyways because I want to be sure 100%.

Here's a quick sample of how I plan to run my ducts to the silencers.
Attachment:
S45-HVAC-D1.png


As you can see I have two separate branches coming out of the rectangular trunk. Each branch is for a different room. I'm wondering if I could potentially run just one single 10" branch to the top of the ceiling and split up there versus down at the trunk level. I would save on materials but I'm concerned that I might risk taking away isolation since the path from one room to another is shorten quite a bit if the sound was to travel inside the ducts. Does this make any sense and if so does it matter if I run a single or double duct run/branch up to the ceiling?

Thanks

Francis,


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:09 pm 
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Quote:
I bought some 3/4" (actual size) MDF as that's the thickest they had at the store.

Here in Alberta, the thickest MDF I can find is 3/4" as well. I bought a bunch of 1/2" sheets that I will glue together.

Quote:
Do I really need to go to exactly 1" thick?

Assuming your inner leaf is two layers of 5/8" drywall, then yes, you do need 1" of MDF in order to match the surface density of your leaf. You could totally add the extra 1/4" of MDF to make a total of 1" thick. Or like you said, build a desk out of the 3/4" material and get a bunch of 1/2" sheets like I'm doing. Either way, you end up with 1" total.

Quote:
As you can see I have two separate branches coming out of the rectangular trunk. Each branch is for a different room. I'm wondering if I could potentially run just one single 10" branch to the top of the ceiling and split up there versus down at the trunk level. I would save on materials but I'm concerned that I might risk taking away isolation since the path from one room to another is shorten quite a bit if the sound was to travel inside the ducts. Does this make any sense and if so does it matter if I run a single or double duct run/branch up to the ceiling?

I wouldn't worry about the sound getting from one room to the other through those ducts as your silencer boxes will take care of that crap.

The benefit to running two separate round ducts in parallel like that is that you are doubling the cross sectional area which will halve the static pressure. This will also lower the velocity which will result in less air/duct noise.

If you tried to move that same amount of air (CFM) up the wall like that in a single duct and maintain that same amount of cross sectional area, you'd need do it with a rectangular duct which adds way more static pressure and even the entry/exits to/from that rectangular duct would add crazy pressure drop. Again, this dual round duct idea you have is great.

Quote:
Here's a quick sample of how I plan to run my ducts to the silencers.

Do you have any pointers about making those amazing looking duct corners? They're so smooth and flawless! Mine are HORRIBLE.

Greg

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:07 am 
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Excellent! Much appreciated Greg Thanks!

I'll go looking for either 1/4" MDF or end up buying a bunch of 1/2". I'll see what I can do.

Quote:
Do you have any pointers about making those amazing looking duct corners? They're so smooth and flawless! Mine are HORRIBLE.

Sure thing man! I had a hard time figuring out the same but I ended up finding this link below with shows you how to create a 90 degree elbow. I tried real quick to make 45s but for some reason was having issues.
https://forums.sketchup.com/t/90-degree ... ow-to/5599

If you have any issues, let me know, I'll gladly create some and share the files with you if you want. Just tell me which size you're looking for.

Cheers,

Francis,


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:12 am 
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Hey guys,

I'm working some more on my sketchup model and I'm considering maybe doing inside-out walls and ceilings since I think I could make it work but I wanted to make sure that there's clear added benefits of doing this versus conventional wall construction with the drywall on the inside of the room.

What are your thoughts on doing this? I would think the main reason why it's a good thing is that the insulation is exposed and probably helps a lot with sound absorption versus having one big solid mass to have the sound bounce on right? Not to mention having to put the added treatment on top of the drywall surface.

My other question is would you recommend doing so in both the Control Room and Live Room or is that "design" mostly for specific rooms?

looking forward in hearing your inputs

have a great day!

Francis,


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:17 pm 
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Quote:
I wanted to make sure that there's clear added benefits of doing this versus conventional wall construction with the drywall on the inside of the room.

What are your thoughts on doing this? I would think the main reason why it's a good thing is that the insulation is exposed and probably helps a lot with sound absorption versus having one big solid mass to have the sound bounce on right? Not to mention having to put the added treatment on top of the drywall surface.

For ceilings you pretty much always want it to be insulation and you can add devices to liven up the room if need be. Plus, acoustically speaking, inside out ceilings allow you the maximum height which is the biggest draw back in home studios.

For walls, inside out will give you a bigger room (acoustically). Sometimes this is a bad thing as it could cause your room to fail the room mode calculator tests. I know in my control room, I can't really go bigger due to the ceiling height. So, I'm using a combination of traditional and inside out walls to get a more square room that passes all of the tests.

For the rear/back wall of a control room, you basically always want it to be stuffed with insulation and/or hangers. Also, you want it as deep acoustically as you can get it. This is a good candidate for inside out. The same can be said about your front wall. For your side walls, I think it's safe to say use either or.

Quote:
My other question is would you recommend doing so in both the Control Room and Live Room or is that "design" mostly for specific rooms?

And like control room side walls, live room walls can be either or. Again, inside out will give more space which is very much desired in a live room. Now, with traditional walls, you will have a lively room that you have to deaden/dampen to your desired response. So, start live and tame it. If you go inside out, you could leave your stud bays empty and have a similar effect. Or, you could fill them with insulation and start with a dead room and liven it up with acoustic treatment devices/materials.

From a construction stand point, standing up inside out walls is dangerous and difficult. For exterior walls, you need to fix your vapour barrier to the back side of the wall.

The other major difference is this: Aesthetics. Do you want drywall with devices hung on them? Or you do you want fabric with built in devices and/or devices hung on it? Personally, I hate drywall mudding and would rather stretch fabric over studs and cover up the seams with wood and things like that. Granted, this will cost more than some muds and frustration.

Greg

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:44 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
I wanted to make sure that there's clear added benefits of doing this versus conventional wall construction with the drywall on the inside of the room.

What are your thoughts on doing this? I would think the main reason why it's a good thing is that the insulation is exposed and probably helps a lot with sound absorption versus having one big solid mass to have the sound bounce on right? Not to mention having to put the added treatment on top of the drywall surface.

For ceilings you pretty much always want it to be insulation and you can add devices to liven up the room if need be. Plus, acoustically speaking, inside out ceilings allow you the maximum height which is the biggest draw back in home studios.

For walls, inside out will give you a bigger room (acoustically). Sometimes this is a bad thing as it could cause your room to fail the room mode calculator tests. I know in my control room, I can't really go bigger due to the ceiling height. So, I'm using a combination of traditional and inside out walls to get a more square room that passes all of the tests.

For the rear/back wall of a control room, you basically always want it to be stuffed with insulation and/or hangers. Also, you want it as deep acoustically as you can get it. This is a good candidate for inside out. The same can be said about your front wall. For your side walls, I think it's safe to say use either or.

Quote:
My other question is would you recommend doing so in both the Control Room and Live Room or is that "design" mostly for specific rooms?

And like control room side walls, live room walls can be either or. Again, inside out will give more space which is very much desired in a live room. Now, with traditional walls, you will have a lively room that you have to deaden/dampen to your desired response. So, start live and tame it. If you go inside out, you could leave your stud bays empty and have a similar effect. Or, you could fill them with insulation and start with a dead room and liven it up with acoustic treatment devices/materials.

From a construction stand point, standing up inside out walls is dangerous and difficult. For exterior walls, you need to fix your vapour barrier to the back side of the wall.

The other major difference is this: Aesthetics. Do you want drywall with devices hung on them? Or you do you want fabric with built in devices and/or devices hung on it? Personally, I hate drywall mudding and would rather stretch fabric over studs and cover up the seams with wood and things like that. Granted, this will cost more than some muds and frustration.

Greg


Hi Greg,

I'm trying to understand how doing inside out walls and ceilings saves you space as the airgap between the leaf supporting structures needs to be bigger than traditional walls in order to get the same amount of TL... so either the inside out walls need to go further into the useable room space or the outer walls need to be moved further out. I can imagine maybe saving around an inch or so but not much more...

Does that make sense?

Paul


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:26 am 
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Quote:
I'm trying to understand how doing inside out walls and ceilings saves you space as the airgap between the leaf supporting structures needs to be bigger than traditional walls in order to get the same amount of TL... so either the inside out walls need to go further into the useable room space or the outer walls need to be moved further out. I can imagine maybe saving around an inch or so but not much more...
It saves you space because most of your treatment can then go in between the studs / joists, rather than being hung on the drywall. Considering that acoustic devices can easily be 3 to 6" inches thick, having most of that tucked inside the wall, between the studs, saves you space.

Especially for the ceiling, where joists are likely to be 8" deep or more, you can get virtually all of your treatment into the joist space, so the lower face of the joists becomes your visible ceiling, while the actual ACOUSTIC ceiling is 8" higher...

- Stuart -

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