John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Well, I've spent the majority of my day researching ways to sound deaden a new rehearsal studio. We have yet to secure a location, still looking. But a promising prospect is a 1200 sq ft warehouse with a 10ft ceiling. I'd like to construct 3 15x15x8 rooms. I really just want the rooms to sound good for any band who comes in to rehearse. I dont want all of the rooms to overpower each other. We'll also have smaller rooms (less deadening) for music lessons, and I dont want the rehearsal rooms to overpower those smaller rooms either.

I've read about mass loaded vinyl insulation, quietrock, and a few other forms of deadening. Truth is, I'm not sure which is necessary. We'd more than likely have to do all construction on our own and we're handy but no professional carpenters by any stretch of the imagination, so ease of installation is naturally a concern. Clearly, QuietRock would be best suited with that knowledge in mind. But it would seem that the cheapest ($40) version of their product may not provide enough deadening, and the upper level product is just too expensive. So now I wonder what's the most cost effective method of deadening these 3 rooms, one which can be installed by a DIY'er.

Also, I wonder if a drop ceiling with deadening panels or a sheet rock ceiling would be best.

Finally, should we build a floating floor? Is this actually necessary? As I'd be concerned with structural integrity having bands constantly moving, jumping, and dropping heavy equipment on it..

I'm looking to keep costs sub $3000 if possible. Any suggestions?

Oh and thanks in advance for any input. I hope that I've provided enough information here, if not please let me know.

Edit:
Also, what are your opinions on this method for my particular needs?
http://www.soundproofing.org/images/wall_2d.jpg

About floating your floor: Read this link:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

Regarding your main question: What do you mean by "deadening"?

Are you talking about isolation, meaning blocking sound going through your walls as much as possible, either from inside your room to outside ("don't annoy the neighbors"), or noise on the outside coming in (road noise, machinery, music, airplanes, trains, etc.)? This is also commonly (and incorrectly) known as "soundproofing". You can't "soundproof" a room any more than you can "waterproof" a watch!

Or do you mean internal acoustic treatment inside your room, to deal with specific problems, such as echo, reverberation, resonance, etc.?

These are two entirely different and unrelated things. Isolation and treatment have nothing to do with each other. In fact, in general, materials that are good for acoustic treatment are terrible for isolation, and materials that are good at isolating, are terrible for treatment!

Either way, mass loaded vinyl (MLV), QuietRock, SoundBoard, and suchlike are not the most cost effective methods. There are much cheaper ways of getting much better results.



Why would you want to build square rooms? Really bad idea, acoustically! (At least you didn't say "16x16x8"! That would have been worse still!)



That's two different things. Making the rooms "sound good" is all about good room design to start with (like not making them square, for example!), plus acoustic treatment inside based on measurement and purpose. Stopping them from "overpowering" each other is all about isolation and decoupling, meaning basically building a "room within a room", with walls and ceilings consisting of two massive leaves separate by an air gap, and hermetically sealed, with insulation in between.




Well, first you need to design your rooms based on good ratios (search for "room ratios" on this forum, and you'll find enough to keep you learning for days). If you don't design the dimensions and ratios well then you will be creating problems that are very hard to solve later.

Then you can build them with normal DIY construction techniques: standard wood or metal framed double stud walls, with two or three layers of normal gypsum board (=sheetrock, =drywall) on the outer sides. In other words, you build two frames separated by an air gap of around 4 inches, you stuff the air gap full of mineral wool or fiberglass insulation, then you screw two layers of gypsum board only to the OUTSIDE of each set of studs. So now you have two chunks of mass (the gypsum board) separated by a "spring" (the air gap plus the insulation). If you do it right, you get excellent isolation. This is called a "two leaf" wall, because you have two sets of mass. Do not build a three leaf wall, or a four leaf wall, as it will give you WORSE isolation, not better. Contrary to popular opinion. Build two leaves, and only two leaves. Seal it tight, and you'll be fine.

That will certainly stop the rooms from "overpowering" each other.

Then, once they are built you can take measurements and figure out how to treat them based on that.


What are "deadening panels"? If you mean so called "acoustic ceiling" panels, then forget it. No use at all for your application. Those are meant for offices, not music rooms! Sheetrock is the way to go. Two or three layers of it, with insulation on top and acoustic treatment underneath, perhaps clouds of some type.



Well, if you want to spend a lot of money, then that would work somewhat well. But you'll get much better results, much cheaper, by following the tried and proven methods recommended here by some of the world's best studio designers.

You might also want to read this carefully:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3231


- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

By the way, be a bit wary of the advice on that site you linked to. While they do correctly dispel quite a few common myths about acoustics, they also perpetuate others, and even make some patently incorrect statements, such as this:



Sorry, but that's just not true. You MUST fill the air gap with insulation, and fiber glass is excellent! Mineral wool is also excellent. The purpose of the insulation has NOTHING AT ALL to do with "sound absorbing qualities", as they claim! The purpose of insulation in the wall is to damp resonance in the cavity! It acts as part of the spring in the "mass-spring-mass" concept. Their comment that fiberglass doesn't have "sound absorbing qualities" when used in the cavity between leaves indicates that they don't understand the principle of MSM construction. They are recommending that you build the right kind of wall, but without knowing why!

They recommend that you buy their cotton-based product, which will also work, but fiberglass and mineral wool will work just as well, are known products that have been thoroughly tested and reported on for decades, and are much cheaper.



Well, by NOT putting insulation in the gap, they probably lost several dB of isolation in that wall. They are not damping the cavity, so the cavity will resonate at certain frequencies, and the entire wall will therefore transmit sound better at those frequencies. While their "Super Soundproofing Mat" might damp the panels, it cannot damp the cavity. If I recall correctly, not putting insulation in the air gap means about 6 to 9 dB of isolation, depending in thickness and placement, so their wall is maybe as much as 9 dB worse than it could be.

It's curious that their web site does not provide much in the way of technical specs about their products, procedures or recommendations. On the other hand, take a look around this forum (where nobody is trying to sell you anything!), and you'll find more technical specs and solidly backed principles than you ever thought existed!

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Thank you very much for your reply! Some very helpful information. We're now building 18x13 rooms, its the only option we really have (if we secure this location). The two leaf wall sounds like a great way to do this inexpensively as well. I wonder, how would you recommend we construct the ceilings? And would they cover the air gap, or rest on the inner frame? I'd imagine connecting the walls would be a bad idea, but leaving the gap uncovered seems odd to me as well. lol Also, we would be laying sheet rock on the outer walls, and the 3 rooms would be side by side. Would it be a bad thing if the outer layer (the hallway) connected the rooms with sheet rock?

Thanks again for your help! I really do appreciate your time.

Much better than a square room! But I'd suggest that you do a search on this forum for "room ratios", and check your exact dimensions against good and bad ratios. You might find that moving your walls just a few inches can get you out of a terrible ratio into a good one.

Just like a wall, only sideways! Basically, each room has its own ceiling, which rests on the walls of that room, and only that room. All joints are sealed airtight. Walls and ceiling in room "A" do not touch walls or ceilings in room "B", and both are separate from room "C". Everything is separate, totally decoupled. Even one stray nail or screw, or a piece of wood that fell in the wrong place in the air gap, can totally wreck your isolation. It is important to take great care to keep your rooms separate and hermetic.

Each ceiling is hung in its own room, from its own framework of 2x4, 2x6 or whatever dimensions you need according to code to span the gap safely while supporting the load. The "load" in this case will be at least two (and maybe three) layers of 5/8 gypsum board, preferably with Green Glue in between, just like for the walls, plus the insulation. A thick layer of insulation goes on top of the ceiling, at least a few inches of mineral wool or fiberglass. Your load will be hundred of kilograms, so you do need to make sure that you build the ceiling strong enough to support that. Check with a structural engineer.


Yup! Connecting walls is a very bad idea. No connection between walls, or between ceilings. Each room is a separate, isolated "box". The air gap remains as an air gap. (Well, it should actually be stuffed with fiberglass or rock wool insulation, but it is still a "gap". )



If the gap concerns you, then I guess you could stretch some acoustic cloth over that if you wanted, but there is no need to do so. It's just an insulation-filled cavity between two walls.



I'm not sure that I understand the question. Think of it like three separate matchboxes inside a shoe box, not touching the sides or each other. The outer leaf is the shoebox, and is common to all three inner rooms ("matchboxes"). The inner leaves are the rooms (matchboxes). So you have only one outer leaf, and three separate inner leaves (each room is an inner leaf.) And there are no connections between the outer leaf and hte inner leaves. The sheetrock on the outer leaf ONLY touches the outer leaf. The sheetrock on the inner leaf ONLY touches the inner leaf.

Perhaps if you download SketchUp, build a simple 3D model of your situation, and post it here then we can get a better idea of what it is that you are planning and we might be able to give you better suggestions.



- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

"...Green Glue in between"

For 1200 square feet and $3K you want to get a real good understanding of what it is you are about to get into. Real good=months of review. Green glue doesn't fit in this budget nor a floating floor.

These are products and procedures recommended by some of the leading professional studio builders here. Your build and money will require that you get informed to counteract the lack of actual dollars.

Read the information here @JLS until it is not confusing. Find the builds that resemble your wants and mimic them in design until one of your own is revealed.

Ask questions.

Few here, myself included, can answer all your questions. And if the answers seem to come at a slow pace, wait for it:)

Getting into a rush will be the first step towards a failed build and lost revenue.

Good luck and Welcome!

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.