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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:04 am 
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me again… :oops:

I went ahead and opened the Genelec :twisted:
Attachment:
1031A opened.jpg

…. well, it seems to be easier than expected to extend the connection between the amp and the speaker (touching wood).
I think I will give it a go, and if it works fine I'm going to rack mount the amp.

The question now is where would it be better?

An idea could be to mount them just below the speaker, through the plate extending down at the back of the studs (using the opened cavity with hangers for the amp ventilation), like so:
Attachment:
speaker amp out.jpg


This have the advantage of:
- keeping a tidy looking setup
- keeping the connection not too long
… but the disadvantage of:
- making the part below the speaker reflecting sound bouncing off the desk instead of absorbing it
- having the power lead and the XLR sticking out of there (not sure if I like that…)


Otherwise, another option I reckon could be to rack mount them on the back of the desk (which will be just in front of it), so they will be hidden, and have the leads running on the floor perhaps through a cable cover?
Attachment:
cable cover.jpg


What would you recommend?

Thanks !


Simo


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Hai Simo,

A rack-mount is an easy DY job, and judging from your work so far I'm sure you are more than capable to do so.
You can mount it anywhere you like. You can even mount in IN your desk or 19" rackspace. Your imagination, and the cablelenght, is the limit. I wouldn't mount it to close to the speaker, you might break the function of the baffle extension.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Thanks for the advise and encouragement Ro !!
Yes, you are totally right - I'll avoid placing them on the lower baffle extension.
I will extend the cable (I think around 3m) and rack mount the amps somewhere beside the desk (still working on ideas where to precisely)

Thanks man :thu:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Agree with Ro: not on the baffle, if you can avoid it. But at the same time, you also don't want to extend those cables too much, as you might end up exposing them to interference, or changing the characteristics of the circuits. Up to a couple of feet would probably be OK, but I wouldn't go much beyond that. One guy whose studio I designed decided to mount his speaker controls on small panels that stick out sideways from the inner edge of the soffits, and it looks quiet neat. You only really need to adjust them while you are configuring the room initially, or when you change the room acoustics, so they don't need to be some place where you have to access them all the time. Once they are set correctly, they don't need tweaking, unless something big changed in the room.

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:46 am 
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Thanks a lot Stuart for your input !

ok…I'm don't know which way to go now... :horse:


Before your post I was toying around with this idea (amps on the back of the rack underneath the desk)...something like that:
Attachment:
amps position idea_1.jpg

Attachment:
amps position idea_2.jpg

Attachment:
amps position idea_3.jpg


But - I understand your point...
Also, when you say:
simo wrote:
One guy whose studio I designed decided to mount his speaker controls on small panels that stick out sideways from the inner edge of the soffits, and it looks quiet neat.

Do you mean something like that perhaps?
Attachment:
amps position idea_4.jpg


...but I'm afraid that even with this configuration the cable would need to be at least 1.5m (perhaps even 2m) in order to reach it.


…I'll think about it a bit more…mmmmh … otherwise I could always revert to the channel+vents option (even if I'd prefer the amps and speakers separated) ?!… :evil: :evil:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:00 am 
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Simo - put it below the speaker like this:

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:39 am 
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Thanks a lot for your advice John ! I will find it very difficult to argue with that sir :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Wouldn't worry too much about interference on your speaker cables. It's much higher power than your average audio/mic signal. Either add long balanced cables (xlr) from the desk to the amp or add long speakercables from amp to speaker. Tho the speakers are specifically designed the way they are, including short cable runs, so it should be tested. And testing will never hurt any-one :)

I think your original idea to put'm a the back of the desk is an excellent idea. It's also the cleanest (as in not visible). Like Stu said, you won't reach for the panel that many time. Unless you plan to power on/off the amp every time....

To be fair, I think the option John showed is kinda ugly. But I know others would die for it, gearheads :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:57 am 
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Wow!... what a blessing all this help - thank you so much guys !!

Ok, I had a chat with the technical engineer at the studio where I work, to get an additional point of view.
In his opinion using appropriate cables - even with a long run - interference shouldn't be an issue (obviously always best to check first anyway).
He wasn't sure if that would somehow change the speaker performance though...


So the plan now is to go ahead and try to extend the cable the needed length and then simply test the result :D (it's not an expensive thing to do but surely worth it) ...and my decision ultimately depends on that.
I agree Ro, "it won't hurt at all", and whatever the outcome I will just end up learning something new, so it's all good ! :thu:


Regarding the amps position: I personally like what John did at Left Bank, but - unlike me - I have the impression that he planned it before building the soffit.
In my case, the original idea was to use the ventilation channel with vent on the bezel (commonly seen around here). Thus, unless I dismantle the soffit and modify it to accommodate for the amp, it won't be easy for me to do it while still having much space for cooling.


Considering all - assuming the test will give me a good result - I feel that the position behind the desk will be the best bet in my case, as (with it being an open space) it allows for a much better ventilation for the amps...


(Switching the amps ON and OFF won't be a problem in whichever way I'll go, as I wired the two outlets where they will be plugged to a twin switch just below the window between the control and the live room).



What I learned so far is that there isn't just one way to do things when designing/building a studio. As long as one understands the principles behind it, at the end of the day it's just a matter of taste. Thanks God we don't all have the same taste, otherwise it would be very boring indeed :blah: :blah:




Thanks a lot again guys for keep looking over my shoulders - much appreciated!!!

Ciao

Simo

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Agree 100%. Although I'd take what you said and re-phrase it just very slightly, by changing the punctuation:

Quote:
There isn't just one way to do things when designing/building a studio, as long as one understands the principles behind it.


I reckon that pretty much covers it! :)

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:39 pm 
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jup, second that :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:04 pm 
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Hello !

I've got one last question about the speaker case.
Sorry for pestering you with this…it's my last question - I promise :oops: - …well, at least about this subject :twisted:


Ok - Would it be better to have the speaker case:

a) firmly attached to the framing… screwed, glued, or anything to make it as firm as possible
Attachment:
case_1.jpg


or

b) totally disconnected from the surrounding soffit.

I was going to go with option a), but then I started having this doubt after reading the very interesting method proposed by Barefoot (viewtopic.php?t=718).
His approach is also very clever as it allows you to upgrade the monitor at a later stage, BUT the part that interests me the most is the principle that avoids building any structures that directly couple the speaker with the framing.
This is to help isolate the speaker cabinet vibrations from the control room (I kind of like this idea!)

…also, this pic I found on the genelec's website (different method - but similar approach of suspending the speaker on top of vibration isolators) got me thinking even more…
Attachment:
genelec_flush_mounting_details.jpg



Thus, I thought… why not try to do an hybrid approach, which is:

Float the the speaker box by placing (say) 4 sorbothane hemispheres (I posted a picture before) underneath it.
Then, still frame around the case to help keeping it firm, but sandwich the sorbothane hemispheres (in light blue here) between the stud and the box, to help stop the vibrations from transferring to the front baffle plate and so to the rest of the room, like this:
Attachment:
case_2.jpg

Attachment:
case_3.jpg


It's worth mentioning that I already lined the box with a 5mm sorbothane layer.
This hopefully will help minimize the transmission of vibrations to the surrounding case.
BUT - if I place another "sorbothane barrier" between the box and the rest of the structure I'll end up with two "vibrations-reducing stages" (which sounds cool too :-))?

What do you think? …. too much thinking? shall I just shut up and keep building quietly… or there is a small base for an exchange of thoughts here?

Thanks as always !

ciao
Simo


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:33 pm 
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Hello Simo,

I've been following your build thread since ... well, since I first saw it :lol:
Very nice by the way !

Not sure I can help directly ... or confuse the issue more :roll: ...

What I've read on isolating speakers from other surfaces seemed to make a point to MINIMIZE the number [or size] of the needed contact points. The less 'contact points', the less surface areas where vibrations can travel due to any possible flanking.

My monitors are not soffit mounted, but they do sit atop of concrete pillars. Using a sorbethane material, I have 3 contact points [2 at the front, one in the rear] that separate the physical monitor from the stand.

Back in the day, we used 'stand off' cones. The entire speaker bottom surface was reduced to 3 'pin point' tips. Since then, I've read criticism of using these metal cones, but never on minimizing the area size that was in contact.

With sorbethane, it is very important to get the correct 'firmness' of the material based on the total weight of the monitor.

just my 1/2 cent thrown in as I await GURU's reply in hopes to learn more. 8)

BTW ... I think this is a very important question[s] you ask. Even if we think we know the answer, I think it wise to hear it explained from different viewpoints. Sometimes a broader understanding or interactive relationship sheds unexpected insights :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:21 pm 
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Hi RJ

Great to hear from you! Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer me.
Really good points...yes, I used to have my old speakers resting on three spike cones too in my previous small room ...just trying to make my life a bit more difficult this time around :-)

Yes, let's hope someone would be able to shed some light on this subject :-)

How 's your studio coming along? Have you finished it? Looking forward to see more of it.

Ciao
Simo

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:26 pm 
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Hi guys (& gals)

...a little diversion...

I just had a conversation with one of the forum member - Finck - via PM regarding the correct earthing for the electric circuit.

After running a separated earth for each individual outlet, he was asking whether the earth within the Twin and Earth cable should be connected as well or just leave that disconnected.
Following logic one would think that it should be left disconnected, to not recreate the loop that we were trying to avoid by star-grounding the outlets, right?

With that occasion I asked the electrician that wired my studio, and I found out he connected the earth within the cable as well (I assumed that he didn't). I guess it won't take long to disconnect that if that's the case...
What do you think??

Thank you !
Simo

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