John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

open back should be closer to the wall - say 400mm

_________________
Glenn

Thank you Glenn!

I will go with the open back then.

Going to fight the router right now

Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados

Routing today went ALOT better (lol) although I only got one piece done.

I've made a sketch of the sound cloud Glenn.

Dimensions are 1450 mm x 1490 mm.

Q) Do you think there is room for improvement Glenn?

By the way, I have not added the led lights to the sketch, they will be placed in the middle
of the cloud.

Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados

consider a good angle on the cloud - say 22.5 - 30 degrees low in front

_________________
Glenn

Thank you Glenn!

I have some concerns about the length of the cloud.

Q1)

Currently, the cloud covers me over the mixing position but not my computer.

Do you believe I need a longer cloud in order to achieve my main objective (accurate translation of mixes) Glenn?

I made a more detailed sketch in order to illustrate my point.


Q2) At a 22.5 degree angled sound cloud there is only 1560 mm of space from the front of the sound cloud to the floor !!!!!!

I know I am short Glenn , but I think that makes the room a little to "claustrophobic" for anyone who will enter it.

If angled at 12.5 degrees the distance in between the sound clouds front to the floor increases to 1807.1 mm.

I made the cloud larger compared to the sketches shown below; 1800 mm long + 1450 mm wide.

Can you angle the cloud less or would that defeat the purpose Glenn?

Q3) I know we covered some of this already BUT (lol) can you make an open sound cloud like the bass traps with no back;
if it is required to have a sealed/caulked back; what is the minimum thickness of the MDF used

Q4) Is it OK to route the side frame (i am not referring to the sealed/caulked MDF) like I am doing my broad band absorbers?

By the way, I did not angle the sound cloud on the sketches shown below .


Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados

Perhaps a sawtooth cloud. If a series of smaller panels is now out of the question, perhaps create a sawtooth back on the cloud. This would reduce the impact on overall height.

_________________
Brian
As you slide down the bannister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way...

exactly - a series of smaller clouds slightly overlapped to get down in front and up in back so you have the head room but also the waveguide action and absorption.

_________________
Glenn

Thank you BriHAR & Glenn.

Your recommendation raises a few questions in my mind.

I have to keep the total weight of the cloud(s) under 20 KG; that is the current threshold of the ceiling.

I reduced the weight of the broad band absorbers wooden frame substantially by "routing out" two 20mm channels.
I could apply the same method to the clouds wood frame if it is applicable.


Q1)

Can either one of you be kind and post a link of this sort of saw cloud in order to facilitate the design process (sketchup etc.)?

I will go though the forums search function; but sometimes that process yeilds limited results.

Q2) Glenn, can you be so kind and explain how the cloud should be assembled?
Should the cloud be sealed or opened? If closed should it be caulked? Are the clouds like the bass traps where
different construction methods might be applied, if this is the case, can you give me an indication of what the variables might be?

Q3) How many of this "saw clouds" do you guys believe are needed for me to meet my main objection with this project (accurate mixes that translate well)?
If possible I wish to keep the number of sound clouds low because of the ceiling weight issues.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2916&hilit=make+cloud

An update; I am getting close to the completion of the routing of the broad band absorbers, made some miss calculations
and have to buy more wood. I have to cut/router two (2) final pieces before varnishing and assembly begins.

Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados

check in JohnH's design thread where I posted a detailed cloud design file which has the clouds with routed panels and cloth absorber faces. in your model you would turn it side ways and repeat (2 or 3) units to achieve the desired angles and absorption. in your case due to weight, use a single layer of plywood and perhaps metal corner bead on the absorber edges.

_________________
Glenn

Glenn, I've looked at that sketch, that is A LOT (lol) of clouds,
I am trying to limit them to two maybe three clouds tops.

I know that you do an excellent job and are constantly having a dialog with a large amount of people;
but in this case I don't think or feel that I got answers to the questions I asked.

Q1) Is it possible to have an "open cloud", after all
the clouds on the johnH sketch are open since (as I understand it with my limited knowledge in this field)
the plywood/MDF is routed.

Q2) I have seen some of your other saw cloud designs that you posted in this forum Glenn
my assumption is that the clouds might be constructed in different ways like the bass traps.

Is this a logical assertion Glenn

It would not hurt if you are kind enough and post some links of your sketches, I would be more then thankful to avoid the numerous hours spent
on searching; I rather spend that time constructing in order to move forward with the project.


Q3) What is the minimum thickness of MDF (this is ONLY if it is a mandatory requirement for me achieving my main objective with this project).


Simple, concise answeres directly connected and related to the questions I ask would be highly appreciated


Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados

My second suggestion was for a larger cloud, to create a sawtooth at the back of the frame so the plywood or mdf backing would be in smaller angled sections.
I have to admit I've never seen it done, but it should work similarly to a number of panels hung in sawtooth fashion.
The large cloud would hang flat the sawtoothed backing would create the wanted angled reflection much the same as if the entire panel were angled / or a set of smaller angled panels were used.

_________________
Brian
As you slide down the bannister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way...

Brian, I am having a hard time visualizing it. Would it work?
I am thankful for your engagement and hope you understand that at this stage of the project I want to minimize the
experimentation process and pursue what has been proven to work.

Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados

Some of the answers I have asked concerning the cloud have been right in front of my nose.

I post the links again in order to facilitate the process for others in this forum.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11107&p=79296&hilit=cloud#p79296
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13154&p=90449&hilit=cloud#p90449
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14736&p=109669&hilit=Glenn+cloud#p109669
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14988&p=106972&hilit=several+clouds#p106972
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1569&hilit=cloud
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15423&hilit=cloud&start=60
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16098&p=114061&hilit=cloud#p114061
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15855&p=113010&hilit=cloud#p113010
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14177&p=99258&hilit=hard+cloud#p99258
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10427&p=75095&hilit=plywood+thickness+cloud#p75095

On the last post; Eric Desart can't be human, that's what I call dedication to what you engage
yourself into understanding and mastering!


Even though these posts answer some of the questions I asked I would like to understand the cloud construction process much better.

Q) Glenn in one of your posts you mentioned that a hard back sound cloud solve problems around 200 Hz, in an other
post John Sayer himself stated (as I understand it) that an open cloud is better at normalizing low frequencies and that angling the cloud
would be a sufficient remedy in order to combat flutter echoes (hard top cloud). What is not clear to me is

A) Does the hard top cloud have to be sealed like the saws?

B) The MDF, plywood thicknesses do you use both and how thick do they have to be?

C) Is the hard top generally better then an open cloud because of how it handles mid range frequencies?

I need a clearer understanding in order to make an informed decision not made on false presumptions or assumptions Glenn.

That is why I, once again ask you to clarify the variables connected to the questions I asked

Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados

the hard back helps break up the modes - angling also provides a more broadband effect than simply making it flat. it acts as a wave guide too so absorption over the back of the cloud helps with trapping. the hard back itself isn't specifically to address something higher up like 200hz - the 100mm porous absorber should handle 200hz reasonably well. it's the 100hz and lower that you need to shift and absorb - a massive panel cloud helps much like you would use hanging broadband absorbers in terms of interfering with the pressure gradients. think of it as making the resonances in the room work harder and therefore you have an energy transformation via absorption...

_________________
Glenn

Thank you Glenn!


Q1) Glenn, with the massive cloud, how thick should the plywood/MDF be (thinking about the weight), does it have to be caulked?

Q2) I am thinking of making two (2) cloud with a combined total length of 1800 mm. Which cloud should be larger? Should the two clouds be the same length?


I want to purchase the wood needed to make the cloud tomorrow, your answer/guidance would make my intention possible.


Based on the Eric Desart link i feel confident enough to buy the wood for the cloud.

I will make two (2) clouds, my first (1st) clout will be angled 30 degrees and will be 1450 mm wide, 720 mm long.
It will contain 80mm sound treatment insulation and will be housed in a wood frame that is 95mm thick. This cloud will also contain
3 led lights (with a corresponding dimmer that is already installed and working).

The second (2nd) cloud will be angled at 12.5 degrees, will be 1450 mm wide and 1080 mm long and contain the
same sound treatment insulation and wood frame as the first (1st) cloud.

Both clouds will have a 16mm routed (to keep the weight down) MDF back panel; here I will use the JohnH example hoping that the routing
will get down the weight factor to an acceptable level.

Here are some pics.


Sincerely,

Useg Diaz-Granados