John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Rod,

Awesome! I'll get one this week. So I'm guessing that there will be some noise transfer when tapping the supporthing structure above right? So I will be looking for as little noise transfer as possible when determining that things are tightened correctly right?

Makes sence! When connecting to the concrete will i use the same concept or does it not matter when connecting into the concrete?

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect

I just wanted to attach the design concept from Glenn to this post so everyone can see what I'm working toward.

Here's a top view with material list


Here's the control room

Here's the rear control room

Vocal Booth window view

Vocal booth door view


This is all documented in the Studio Design section at this link http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15301

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect

When I inspect the rooms I design I expect there to be no transfer of sound from the existing to the new inner structure (as relates to physical flanking).

If I can hear the hammer strikes using a stethoscope then they screwed something up and I then search for (until I find) the problem and make them fix it....... I do this at various locations throughout the room - and test right next to me - as well as around the room for each location.

As far as the concrete goes - it is every bit as important there as it is anywhere else......

Although concrete is a pretty decent isolator (due to it's mass) at low frequencies - it is a very good physical path for transmitting certain signals as well.....

Check it out for yourself - have someone go outside of your home and tap (very lightly) on the concrete - you will hear those taps quite clearly inside - without using the stethoscope......

I have seen tapping sounds travel hundreds of feet through a reinforced structural concrete slab (picture 12 inches of concrete with loads of thick rebar mats - the rebar 12" on center in both directions, mats top and bottom, the slabs poured directly on earth), into a massive pile cap - up through the 14" concrete wall resting on that pile cap - with it finally creating a ringing sound coming from a galvanized steel guard rail 3 stories up (outside of the building). I was standing about 50 feet from the guard rail when I heard it.....

Rod Gervais
GIK Acoustics
Director of Education
http://www.gikacoustics.com (USA)
http://www.gikacoustics.co.uk (Europe)
Tel.(US)1.888.986.2789
Tel.(UK)+44(0)20.7558.8976

_________________
Ignore the man behind the curtain........

Wow thats insane! I would have never thought concret would travel sound so far!

And I didn't realize how important it is to isolate the concrete areas also.

No sound transfer at all ehh? Ok I will work toward that. I'm thinking it will take some tinkering around to ensure that I do it correctly.

So do I do the bottom of the wall the same as the top?

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect

I would guess not - to begin with you will not be creating a situation (with the wall resting on the slab) that you are creating with the top of wall and connections to the concrete wall.

At the existing floor joists and wall to concrete wall connection you are creating specific point connections - very much akin to what created the effect I was describing above - a concentration of energy that is being transmitted, whereas with the plate at the bottom of the wall you have something that is transmitting the energy in a more dispersed manner. The energy is more spread out- much less concentrated.........

To witness this simply place a 2x4 plat on the surface of your slab and tap both on it - and on the slab adjacent to it with that same 2lb hammer - listen in the middle of the floor with your stethoscope - you will hear a tremendous difference between the 2......


You also will not have (on the slab in your space) the same point to point type of impact noise I was speaking of in that high rise........

Rod Gervais
GIK Acoustics
Director of Education
http://www.gikacoustics.com (USA)
http://www.gikacoustics.co.uk (Europe)
Tel.(US)1.888.986.2789
Tel.(UK)+44(0)20.7558.8976

_________________
Ignore the man behind the curtain........

Thanks!

So does this mean that the bottom of the 2x4 wall I can just have the wood resting directly on the concrete or would I use the neoprene as a "barrier"? Also would I bolt the wall or simply use nails? I will be working on this tomorrow so I just want to clarify.

It sounds like the concrete slab will even and disperse the sound better.

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect

Esco,

You should not need the barrier - and nails are fine-


Rod Gervais
GIK Acoustics
Director of Education
http://www.gikacoustics.com (USA)
http://www.gikacoustics.co.uk (Europe)
Tel.(US)1.888.986.2789
Tel.(UK)+44(0)20.7558.8976

_________________
Ignore the man behind the curtain........

Ok thanks for the info!

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect

probably a bit late - i agree - using proper isolation mounts is the best approach however with tight budget my proposal was to provide moderate decoupling using the bolts. anyhooos - here's the approach in more detail...

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Glenn

Ok I see. Thanks Glenn! I will build to these specifications!

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect

.

This diagram shows the wall being bolted to the floor and the ceiling? Why would you do that when there are way to many options to eliminate this type of connection...hard connection.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

What are some other options? And would the options save me money and be a bit easier? I am willing to try something different as long as I have a visual on what I am doing.

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect

i believe Brien is referring to using OSB on the corners to form a cross-bracing to stabilize the isolation walls - which is definitely an option, or using (as recommended by Rod and Brien) using proper isolation brackets to stabilize it. the latter will cost more but is also more likely to assure a stable structure, the former "should" be plenty because the rooms are joined on 90 degrees and that join plus the vertical OSB on the corners should do it. either way you need the floor anchors. being that i only really trust things when they are screwed or bolted, i have proposed the decoupled bolts approach used in both the lower and upper plate. one option is to put the OSB sheets on the corners (a 4x8 1/2" sheet nailed onto the outside portion of the frame - in the corner with the meter cut an opening) and then if you find any concerns regarding the stability, add the bolts on the top side. on the treatments walls - you'll still need to anchor top and bottom.

_________________
Glenn

I do not know what a "decoupled anchor bolt" is or where to find it, and still have concerns about how best to use it since a particular foot pound would be required for tension, correct or no?:)

I always have concerns about attaching directly to the existing structure since this is most always a flanking path, in respect to the framing at the top. Wouldn't it be, well not easier, but less flanking to attache the treatments to the wall assembly directly rather than the overhead joist/blocking?

I assume you have designed this before for someone Glenn and it worked...but those details about how it worked...I'm just asking

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

So would the ceiling be attached to the Joists above or would they be build on top of the walls?

_________________
Laziness is reflected in our life's work. Take the time to learn and stand out over the rest. Anyone can "Just get it done" but it takes true craftsmanship to create a masterpiece.

Esco
http://www.myspace.com/freakshiftdialect