John Sayers' Design Forum

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

A World of Experience
Click Here for Information on John's Services
It is currently Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:25 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
Soundman2020 wrote:
The new ceiling can ONLY touch the new walls, nothing else.


How is this possible? I mean will the framing be capable of carrying the load of 3-4 layers of gypsum-board?

All the studio ceilings i have seen are being hanged from the concrete with suspension mounts.

Something like this http://www.noiz.gr/index.php?topic=187280.0 its in Greek but you can understand from the pics. Its a studio in Greece 3d floor or something like that.

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:14 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:54 am
Posts: 3820
Location: Exit 4, Alabama
It is the goal to decouple the ceiling from the existing structure...your picture does that but what Stuart may be referring to is a wooden or structural steel framed wall assembly.

The goal is to "decouple" the existing from the new.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
UPDATE!

Some (maybe) good news...

I called the subcontractor to make a new deal. I had with me a good friend who has studied Music Technology & Acoustics Science. He has no experience except his studio but has the basic knowledge of the university. My friend informed the subcontractor that the fact that the room is not "sealed" right now (doors etc) has nothing to do with the structural noise being caused by drums and electric bass. He explained to him why the construction is wrong. Despite that the subcontractor insists that he can fix the problem :blah: and that i will be able to practice or rehearse with my band 24 hours a day :shock:

So i told him that i can not trust him any more and that we have to make a "quality guarantee-contract" for the construction. If the construction does not meet the requirements he gave to me he will dissemble the structure and give me my money back. I also told him that from now on he is the one who will pay for the rest...doors, electrics, ventilation because he is so convinced that the he will manage it and agreed to make a contract.

I also warned him that he will not manage it, and I proposed him not to continue with the structure, give me my money back and dissemble it, in order to avoid for his sake the extra expenses of the doors etc and go home. But he insisted, :blah: he said it was not fair to fire him before he finishes his job, so i said "fair enough you can finish it but after we make the contract."

I made the contract and tonight my uncle will check it since he is a lawyer...we he will check it for mistakes, form, syntax etc and we will sign the contract in a police station by the presence of a police officer :cop: who will stamp it in order for our signatures and identification to do be certified .

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
And some not so good news.

The subcontractor called me and said that he can give me written guarantee about the results only if i was going to use wooden custom doors that would cost 2100€ extra. I told him that our deal had to do with a budget of 6000€ for the whole construction including 2 aluminum doors with triplex laminated glass. Suddenly he changed his mind, though he was informed by a specialist that the doors have nothing to do with the vibrations.

You were very right xSpace. I was taken advantage of. The very sad thing is that "crew" was introduced to me by a very good person as i told before. I really do not know what to do. Basically i want to "fire" him and tell him to dissemble the construction and give me my money back. But i am afraid that he will say bullshit about expenses (workers, material wastage etc). If its going to be like that i really prefer to tell him to keep the 50% of the money i gave in advance and finish this shit. These guy has no sign of respect for his job, his customers. I mean i see the pictures every day and i wonder for this low quality workmanship this construction has.

I should have made a contract from the first place, i am a man of my word and i don't like contracts and shit. Unfortunately i was mistaken

I am angry, frustrated, outraged and very sad.

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:59 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11940
Location: Santiago, Chile
Man, I'm really sorry to hear that. (I guess the contractor wasn't so confident about his build anymore, once he started looking into it.) It's not surprising that you are pretty upset about this!

Anyway, I guess the question now is: where do you go from here? What can you do with what you have, and how can you make the best out of a bad situation?

Maybe you could post a couple of photos of how the build stands right now, and what materials you have on hand, to see if we can offer any suggestions on what path to take from here. It might not be necessary to rip it all out, and if you work carefully it should be possible to re-use some of the materials that you take out.


But I did notice that I missed answering one of your questions, so let me do that in the mean time.

Quote:
How is this possible? I mean will the framing be capable of carrying the load of 3-4 layers of gypsum-board?
All the studio ceilings i have seen are being hanged from the concrete with suspension mounts.
Yes, framing can do that, if it is dimensioned correctly. As Brien said, I am thinking of wood framing, and it certainly is possible to span those distances carrying those loads. But you can also do it the way you show, by suspending the ceiling from acoustic hangers. Either way will work, provided that you have a large enough air-gap, and enough mass on the ceiling. Those are the two main factors that determine how much isolation you will get: mass, and air gap.

Anyway, if you can post some photos of the current status, maybe someone can come up with a plan to get you back on track.


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
Soundman2020 wrote:
Man, I'm really sorry to hear that. (I guess the contractor wasn't so confident about his build anymore, once he started looking into it.) It's not surprising that you are pretty upset about this!
Anyway, I guess the question now is: where do you go from here? What can you do with what you have, and how can you make the best out of a bad situation?


The subcontractor came this morning to chat. I told him that i cannot work with such an unreliable person and the he should be ashamed cause he was introduced by another person of the "music circle". I proposed him to give me half of my deposit back. Half damage for you and another half for me, dissemble it take his materials and go home. He started saying bullshit, that he doesn't want to have unhappy customers etc. The fact that he is not Greek and cant speak clearly my language made the situation worse...

So i told him the dissemble the whole structure and make it again but with my design, my instructions and my responsibility.

If he had do buy any extra materials like gypsumboard, rockwool, antivibrating decoupling rubbers for wall frame and ceiling frame, etc this would be charge to him. Anything except doors, ventilation and electrics. He accepted.

A good friend of mine with lots of experience will make some calculations and give me a design and the instructions to do it.

Any help from any of you is welcome!!!

The structure is the same you saw in the pictures nothin has changed.

Check the pics from this thread at greek musicians forum http://www.noiz.gr/index.php?topic=187280.0 more or less it is going to be the same. It is the most simple construction i can do.

Soundman2020 wrote:
As Brien said, I am thinking of wood framing, and it certainly is possible to span those distances carrying those loads. But you can also do it the way you show, by suspending the ceiling from acoustic hangers. Either way will work, provided that you have a large enough air-gap, and enough mass on the ceiling. Those are the two main factors that determine how much isolation you will get: mass, and air gap.


I cant do wood framing, he will ask me for more money and its also much more expensive than the metal framing. It is also easier and faster with metal framing.

The concrete ceiling is already massive. The gap from the frame according to the other construction i showed you (the one in greek) is 10cm. Space-wise i cant afford loosing more than 15cm from the existing walls. I have a 12m2 area. With the room in a room i cant go less than 9m2. Right now i am on 9.8m2.

Son i was thinking something like this...

1) Insulation on concrete walls not more than 50kg/m3 dense.
2) Begin framing from ceiling with the decoupling suspensions like this, something between these (i dont know what to choose i wait for my friends proposals, insulation, 3 layers of gypsumboard.
3) Wall framing on decoupling rubbers, insulation, 3 layers of gypsumboard.
4) Floor...you told me i dont need and i understand but i have the materials and money spent so why not to make one...100kg/m3 rockwool 5cm, a friend of mine told me to get 100kg/m3 rebonded foam 5cm, it lasts longer and it has elastic characteristics, 1 layer of water proof plywood, 2 layers of gypsum board and i layer of plywood again
5) The doors when i say triplex i mean the laminated. The ones with membrane inside. I dont know if we talk about the same thing.

So what do you think? Do i really need air gap? Can i fill the entire cavities with rockwool? You said that before...But we need MSM right? with no air gap we dont have spring. Is it right?

Again, thank you so much for your information and concern ! I wish i had posted i day before...but anyway, better late than never...

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:27 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11940
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
He accepted.
I hope he's willing to sign that in writing this time! That would be a reasonable deal all around.

Quote:
I cant do wood framing, he will ask me for more money and its also much more expensive than the metal framing. It is also easier and faster with metal framing.
Fair enough. Then let's stay with metal framing on isolation hangers. So what's important here is to make sure that the ceiling is PROPERLY isolated from the concrete.

Quote:
The gap from the frame according to the other construction i showed you (the one in greek) is 10cm.
Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing: You are saying that the distance from the bottom surface of the concrete, to the top surface of the drywall, is 10cm? If so, that should be fine. More would be better, of course, but 10 cm is the minimum recommended gap. If the gap gets much smaller than that, then you start losing isolation very quickly. And yes, you do need to put insulation in that gap: either mineral wool of around 50 kg/m3, or fiberglass of around 30 kg/m3. Fill the entire gap if you can, but do not force the insulation in there! If you force it in, then it could create flanking paths. Put in just enough so that it fits nicely, and no more. In other words, if you can buy insulation that is exactly 10cm thick, that would be perfect, but not insulation that is 11 cm thick. And if you can only get 5 or 6 cm in, well, that would be OK, but not optimum.

Quote:
Space-wise i cant afford loosing more than 15cm from the existing walls.
You mean 15cm on each side, I hope, and not 15 cm total? So once again, just to make sure we are talking about the same things, you are talking about having a distance of about 12cm from the surface of the concrete wall up to the inside surface of the drywall, then two layers of 15mm drywall, for a total thickness of 15 cm? Then the same on the other side of the room. Is that correct? If so, then yes, that is fine. And once again, fill that entire gap with insulation, if you can, or at least fill half of it. When I say "fill half of it", I'm talking about thickness, not height! So you'd have insulation all the way form the floor to the ceiling, but only 5 or 6 cm thick. And "fill completely" would be all the way from floor to ceiling and 12cm thick.

I prefer to explain things like this in very simple terms, just to make sure that there are no problems with the language barrier, since I don't speak any Greek at all!

Quote:
1) Insulation on concrete walls not more than 50kg/m3 dense.
Correct. 50 kg/m3 is for mineral wool (rockwool), but if you use fiberglass insulation then it should only be about 30 kg/m3.

Quote:
2) Begin framing from ceiling with the decoupling suspensions like this, something between these (i dont know what to choose i wait for my friends proposals,
It would be better to call the manufacturer and ask! They will tell you what the CORRECT product is for you. tell them that you will be hanging roughly 30 to 40 kg/m2, with an air gap of 10cm filled with insulation, and you need to have a resonant frequency as low as possible for that structure, preferably below 20 Hz. They will tell you which model of hanger you need, how many you need, and how to space them. This is very important!!!! You are building an MSM resonant structure up there, and it MUST be tuned correctly! If you put in too many, or not enough hangers, or if you space them too close, or too far apart, or if you use the wrong ones, then you will have tow potential problems: #1 is that the structure will not isolate correctly, and #2 is safety: you might be loading it incorrectly, and end up with 300 kg of drywall falling on your head... So call them, or even better send them an e-mail, carefully explaining what you want to do, and asking for their recommendation in which device to use, how many, and where to put them.

The manufacturer is the person best qualified to tell you about this.

Quote:
3) Wall framing on decoupling rubbers,
Forget those: you don't need them. They will not do anything useful, acoustically. Your concrete floor is on the GROUND, and that means that the entire planet is acting as a damper on your floor, so little tiny things like that will not help any. A waste of money.

Quote:
4) Floor...you told me i dont need and i understand but i have the materials and money spent so why not to make
I'd say one excellent reason for not making one, is ceiling height! You don't have much, drums need height to sound good, and trying to float your floor will just waste height. If you have the materials, use them to make a drum riser. Much more useful.

Quote:
100kg/m3 rockwool 5cm,
Too dense, and too thin. That will NOT decouple, and also is so dense that it does not have good low-frequency absorption.

Quote:
A friend of mine told me to get 100kg/m3 rebonded foam 5cm,
Whoooaaaa!!!! Foam? What TYPE of foam? You need to know: Closed-cell foam is no use, acosutically. Open cell foam is OK, but even then that 100 kg/m3 sounds way too dense. Can you provide a link to the web site of the manufacturer, and specifically to the section on their web site that has the acoustic properties? You need to know what the gas flow resistivity is for that foam, in order to find out if it is any use, acoustically.

I hate to say this, but listening to your friends was what got you into this problem in the first place, so maybe it would be better to actually found out for sure that what your friends are telling you is good advice! There are a LOT if myths about acoustics, all over the internet, so it is wise to check what other people tell you, and read the actual science and the acoustic numbers for anything that you plan to do in your studio from now on. Your friend might be giving you good advice, but you'll never know unless you check the actual facts and figures.

Quote:
1 layer of water proof plywood, 2 layers of gypsum board and i layer of plywood again
Still not enough mass for a proper floating floor: That's only about 40 to 50 kg/m2 there. You need something like 200 kg/m2, (depending on the spring, cavity, and fill). That's why proper floating floors are done with concrete. And you don't even have a spring in that system you describe, so it isn't floating anyway!

These things have to be calculated! You can't guess and say "I think I'll use this foam because my friend said it was good", or "I think I'll put a few layers of drywall and some plywood there". You need to do the mathematics! First, you need to decide how many decibels of isolation you need, and what is the lowest frequency range that you need to isolate. With those two numbers you can calculate the amount of mass and the spring resilience that you will need to accomplish the goal. Or if you already know what the spring resilience is (for example, if you already have the springs) then you can just use that to calculate the mass and air gap. If you don't do the math, then the chance are really good that you will NOT get a good outcome! You can't guess: you need to sit down with pencil, paper and a calculator, and figure these things out.

If you don't figure it correctly, then there are only two possibilities: 1) You will have too much mass for the spring, it will over-compress and "bottom out", and therefore you will have no isolation. or 2) You will not have enough mass for the spring, it will be under-compressed and "top out", and therefore you will have no isolation. There are no other possibilities. That spring has to be compressed just the right amount for the mass that you have on top of it. Too much and it won't work. Too little and it won't work. You MUST do the calculations!

That's why we could look at your photos, and see that the contractor didn't have a clue: clearly, he did not do ANY calculations for your floor, since it will never work like that. If you don't do the calculations, then you'll end up with a DIFFERENT floor, but it still won't work. Acoustics is a science, with equations an calculations. It isn't about listening to friends and guessing.

Quote:
5) The doors when i say triplex i mean the laminated. The ones with membrane inside. I dont know if we talk about the same thing.
Ahhhh! OK, that's fine then. I misunderstood. I thought you meant it had three separate pieces of glass in it. Laminated glass is excellent. How thick is the glass? (total thickness, both panes plus the membrane).

Quote:
So what do you think? Do i really need air gap? Can i fill the entire cavities with rockwool? You said that before...But we need MSM right? with no air gap we dont have spring. Is it right?
It's the same thing: Insulation is mostly air anyway, so when we say "air gap" we are talking about the entire space in the cavity, regardless of whether it has any insulation in it.

Yes, the air is the spring, and the insulation is the damper. It is just like the example of car suspension that you used earlier: You have a spring to give you the "bounce", and you have a shock absorber to damp the oscillations by absorbing some of the energy. That's what the insulation does in a wall cavity: it absorbs the resonant energy. In acoustic, that is sometimes called "damping".

So yes, you can (and should!) fill the entire cavity, if your building code allows it. BUT! As Rod has mentioned here, there are sometimes fire regulations on how insulation can be installed in walls, so check with your building inspector to see if you are allowed to fill the entire cavity. If you can, then that's great. If not, then fill as much as you are allowed to. Just so you get an idea: you can get an improvement of about 10 decibels in isolation by putting insulation in, and maybe as much as 16 db, under some circumstance. That's a LOT of extra isolation! But even if you can only fill it half way, you can still get maybe 6 dB of improvement, as compared to no isolation.

Quote:
I wish i had posted i day before...but anyway, better late than never..
:!: :D At least you didn't post one week later! It would have been much sadder, and very much more infuriating to find out afterwards, when it was all finished and didn't work! So at least you only found out one day late. Things would have been worse...

:)


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
Soundman2020 wrote:
I hope he's willing to sign that in writing this time!

It does not matter any more. I am taking the responsibility of the design/construction
Quote:
I cant do wood framing, he will ask me for more money and its also much more expensive than the metal framing. It is also easier and faster with metal framing.
Fair enough. Then let's stay with metal framing on isolation hangers. So what's important here is to make sure that the ceiling is PROPERLY isolated from the concrete.
Quote:
You are saying that the distance from the bottom surface of the concrete, to the top surface of the drywall, is 10cm? If so, that should be fine. More would be better, of course, but 10 cm is the minimum recommended gap.

Yes that is what i mean.
Quote:
You mean 15cm on each side, I hope, and not 15 cm total? So once again, just to make sure we are talking about the same things, you are talking about having a distance of about 12cm from the surface of the concrete wall up to the inside surface of the drywall, then two layers of 15mm drywall, for a total thickness of 15 cm? Then the same on the other side of the room. Is that correct? If so, then yes, that is fine.

Yes this is what i mean, each side, but i was thinking of putting 3 layers of insulation for more mass.
Quote:
Forget those: you don't need them. They will not do anything useful, acoustically. Your concrete floor is on the GROUND, and that means that the entire planet is acting as a damper on your floor, so little tiny things like that will not help any. A waste of money.

Quote:
I'd say one excellent reason for not making one, is ceiling height! You don't have much, drums need height to sound good, and trying to float your floor will just waste height. If you have the materials, use them to make a drum riser. Much more useful

I dont care about the sound, it is not going to be a recording room. I also practice always with ear protection. If am going to have better results by making this type of "floating" floor isolation/vibration wise why not to do so?
Quote:
100kg/m3 rockwool 5cm,Too dense, and too thin. That will NOT decouple, and also is so dense that it does not have good low-frequency absorption.

Quote:
Whoooaaaa!!!! Foam? What TYPE of foam? You need to know: Closed-cell foam is no use, acosutically. Open cell foam is OK, but even then that 100 kg/m3 sounds way too dense. Can you provide a link to the web site of the manufacturer, and specifically to the section on their web site that has the acoustic properties? You need to know what the gas flow resistivity is for that foam, in order to find out if it is any use, acoustically.

Quote:
I hate to say this, but listening to your friends was what got you into this problem in the first place, so maybe it would be better to actually found out for sure that what your friends are telling you is good advice!

The man who proposed me the decoupling rubbers, the floating floor solution and the rebonded foam alternative instead of rockwool is not a friend. He is basically, but actually i have never met him in person. He is helping me with my drum room, he is a guy like you, a good guy that i met through internet and he is making a recommended-design for my drum room.
He is co-owner of the Sonic Ark Studio in Thessaloniki/Greece. He has designed the studio isolation wise and acoustics-wise.
You can check his studio here, here He is no amateur.
Rebonded foam is this, i can't find acoustic properties. Its open cell
The floating floors of the type he proposed me is a solution of his tested with very good results in many studios. His new studio -the sonic ark- has a well calculated concrete floating floor.
I dont doubt what you say, the thing is that materials like rock-wool etc do not meet manufacturers specifications to make the necessary calculations, these are only successfully applied solutions
Quote:
First, you need to decide how many decibels of isolation you need, and what is the lowest frequency range that you need to isolate. With those two numbers you can calculate the amount of mass and the spring resilience that you will need to accomplish the goal. Or if you already know what the spring resilience is (for example, if you already have the springs) then you can just use that to calculate the mass and air gap. If you don't do the math, then the chance are really good that you will NOT get a good outcome! You can't guess: you need to sit down with pencil, paper and a calculator, and figure these things out.

Hmmm, i sucked in math and physics...do you have any references so i can try to calculate (at least try)
I would love to have 100db isolation but its a dream...just jokin'!
Realistically speaking i would like to have 70db but i think i cant accomplish that with the space i have. Maybe 50db would be ok, and the frequency...? Hmmm yes bellow 20Hz or why not bellow 10
Quote:
Ahhhh! OK, that's fine then. I misunderstood. I thought you meant it had three separate pieces of glass in it. Laminated glass is excellent. How thick is the glass? (total thickness, both panes plus the membrane).

I dont know man i havent made the order yet, how thick should it be? I will put 2 doors of these
Quote:
So yes, you can (and should!) fill the entire cavity, if your building code allows it. BUT! As Rod has mentioned here, there are sometimes fire regulations on how insulation can be installed in walls, so check with your building inspector to see if you are allowed to fill the entire cavity. If you can, then that's great. If not, then fill as much as you are allowed to. Just so you get an idea: you can get an improvement of about 10 decibels in isolation by putting insulation in, and maybe as much as 16 db, under some circumstance. That's a LOT of extra isolation! But even if you can only fill it half way, you can still get maybe 6 dB of improvement, as compared to no isolation.

Regulations...inspector...? In Greece...? In papers maybe in action...i dont think so, sad but true...i'll go for the 10db+...
Quote:
Things would have been worse...

Thats what i said bro...better late than never..!

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:36 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11940
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
I would love to have 100db isolation but its a dream...just jokin'!
Actually you CAN have 100 dB! You'll just need a few million dollars to do it... :lol:

Seriously it is possible: Eric Dessart (he posts here on the forum occasionally) helped design and build a studio where the specs where exactly that: 100 dB isolation. And he did accomplish it! But it wasn't cheap to do...

Quote:
i would like to have 70db but i think i cant accomplish that with the space i have. Maybe 50db would be ok,
Actually, 70 dB MIGHT be possible in your place, but you probably would have to float the floor then. And 50 dB is certainly do-able, without floating the floor. So is 60. 60 dB of isolation would mean that the level outside your room when you are playing would be in the range 40 to 50 dB. That's pretty decent.

Quote:
Hmmm yes bellow 20Hz or why not bellow 10
If you want to isolate down to 20 Hz, then you need to tune all of your walls and the ceiling to 10 Hz. That's not easy to do! It needs more space and more mass than you have available. If you could tune it to 10 Hz, then it would not isolate at all at 10 Hz, would start isolating at 14 Hz, and would isolate reasonably at 20 Hz. Besides, for a drum room you don't need to go down that low (unless you also play bass guitar very loud in there?). The fundamental of a kick drum is seldom much lower than about 60 or 70 Hz, so tuning your walls and ceiling for somewhere under 30 Hz should be good enough, and can be done in the space you have available.

Quote:
I dont know man i havent made the order yet, how thick should it be?
Once again, it's the same issue of the lowest frequency and how much isolation you need. The general rule is that the entire door (including the glass) should have about the same surface density as the wall. Glass is about 3 to 4 times more dense than drywall, so if you have 3 layers of 16mm drywall, then your glass should be 12mm to 16mm thick, to keep the same surface density. Probably 12mm would be fine, as long as the gap between the two doors is at least as big as the air gap in the walls. If you can make that gap between the doors even bigger, then great!

But just as important as the door itself, is the seal around the edge of the door. For that level of isolation that you want, you need at least two seals on each door, and three would be better. Each seal must go completely around the edge of the door, top bottom and both sides, with no holes or gaps.

Quote:
Rebonded foam is this, i can't find acoustic properties.
Then I wouldn't use it. If you don't know how it reacts to sound, it's not worth taking the risk. Just use materials for which there is plenty of acoustic information. That's why we normally recommend things like drywall, rockwool, fiberglass, concrete, plywood, and things like that: Because there is a LOT of acoustic information for all of those. And even better: they are cheap materials! Yes, there are other materials that might work too, but if there is no published information on it, then why would you use it? And especially if it is more expensive. My philosophy is to use the cheapest material that will do the job well.

Quote:
The floating floors of the type he proposed me is a solution of his tested with very good results in many studios. His new studio -the sonic ark- has a well calculated concrete floating floor
That's right! If you want a properly floated floor, then concrete is the way to go! But do you have enough budget to do that correctly?

I STRONGLY suggest that you should read this:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

That thread explains how to figure out if you need to float your floor (you don't) and also how to calculate things if you do need to float it.

Quote:
the thing is that materials like rock-wool etc do not meet manufacturers specifications to make the necessary calculations,
I'm not sure what you mean by that! There is a huge amount of data available for rockwool (and other forms of mineral wool, as well as fiberglass) for doing the calculations! You can find it right here on the forum, in many places as well as in other places on the internet, and on the manufacturer's web sites. The acoustic properties and numbers for rockwool are quiet well understood, and easily available. But as you said, there are none at all for that foam stuff you mentioned...

Quote:
Hmmm, i sucked in math and physics...do you have any references so i can try to calculate (at least try)
Sure! viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

Or if you don't want to do the calculations, and just prefer to look at different types of floated floor that have been tested in laboratories, then this is very useful too:

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/p ... /ir802.pdf


Quote:
Regulations...inspector...? In Greece...? In papers maybe in action...i dont think so, sad but true...i'll go for the 10db+...
:) Understood! some places in Latin America are like that... :)


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
Quote:
for a drum room you don't need to go down that low (unless you also play bass guitar very loud in there?). The fundamental of a kick drum is seldom much lower than about 60 or 70 Hz, so tuning your walls and ceiling for somewhere under 30 Hz should be good enough, and can be done in the space you have available.


So space-wise i cant make a construction that can absorb fairly bass guitar frequencies. But I could make a bass guitar amp "riser" like this drum riser (after i make the calculations of-course.

Quote:
That's right! If you want a properly floated floor, then concrete is the way to go! But do you have enough budget to do that correctly?

What i meant before is that the floating floors he proposed me with rockwool or rebonded foam are tested with good results (not in the Sonic Ark but in other studios)
So what about floating with this way the floor VS a drum riser. I mean since i have the materials to float all the floor, then why not to do so? I tell you again that i dont care about the sound quality. Its a practice room.

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:25 pm
Posts: 1
If any of the walls do have to come down, you may also want to check the wiring as it goes through the metal studs. Here in the U.S. a plastic sleeve is required where metal studs are cut for wiring, so that the electrical wiring doesn't rub on the cut edge of the metal, which can compromise the wiring insulation and cause wiring shorts at best and structure fires at worst. It looks like pics 0751 and 0752 show the wire just laying on the cut edge of the stud.

Good luck with the contractor!


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
Update...

The room has been dissembled in order to be rebuild.
I went today in a acoustic company which also manufactures anti-vibrating suspensions, pads etc.
I explained the situation to one of the owners of the company, i also showed him this thread.

He proposed me these products after he made the appropriate calculations

Pseudo-Ceiling Suspensions approximately 3 pieces / m2

Gypsum Partition Support 1 on bottom and 1 on top in every c-stud, approximately placed every 60cm

Floor Anti-Vibrating Pads 6cmx6cm Blue 5 pieces / m2

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:35 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:54 am
Posts: 3820
Location: Exit 4, Alabama
beeros05 wrote:
Update...


Floor Anti-Vibrating Pads 6cmx6cm Blue 5 pieces / m2


Sir, you just demolished the room because of the floor drum head effect...please forget about what you are thinking...the vibration pads SUGGESTS you are going to attempt another wooden floor, please do not do this...please, your killing me!!!!

_________________
Brien Holcombe
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:39 am
Posts: 68
Location: Athens / Greece
xSpace wrote:

Sir, you just demolished the room because of the floor drum head effect...please forget about what you are thinking...the vibration pads SUGGESTS you are going to attempt another wooden floor, please do not do this...please, your killing me!!!!


Why you say that? These pads under the weight of the wood are taking the amount of pressure that is needed in order to float according to his calculations.

_________________
My YouTube Channel


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:58 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11940
Location: Santiago, Chile
Once again, we get back to the original question that you have not yet answered: WHY DO YOU THINK THAT YOU NEED TO FLOAT YOUR FLOOR?

There are very, very few valid reasons for doing that. None of them apply to your case!

We keep in telling you that you do NOT need to float the floor, and the only reason you have given is that "I've seen it done in other places". That's not a valid reason for doing it in YOUR place.

So please answer the question: What is the technical, acoustic reason for floating your floor?

You don't seem to have any reason at all for doing that. Doing it right is complicated, expensive, slow, and very hard to get right, plus it uses up room height.

Did you read this document?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

After reading that, please explain the technical reason why you want to float your floor.


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: konspan96 and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group