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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:27 am 
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Hello-

Been shopping around for a space and am seeing in many ways the benefits of building to suit for a studio, a lot of pre existing buildings would be prohibitively expensive. Of course a lot of zoning/permitting regs come into play and in the course of that the idea to build underground has come up.

I've searched on here and other than basement studios I don't see a lot of underground builds from scratch. Is there a general reason why this is a bad idea? It would seem that on the one hand a lot of effort/money could be saved in the fight against external isolation. On the other it seems like it might be more difficult/costly to minimize internal flanking between rooms?

It's very early stages still, but I'm looking to build something roughly 3000+ sf with one large room, two big booths, two control rooms, ~14' clear height. It seems a foundation like this could be done for not that much more than say a steel building of the same size, and possibly require less expense/work on the inside to get the external isolation up to par?

But it seems like if it were such a good idea more people would be doing it. Thanks-


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:41 am 
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From the point of view of isolation to the outside world, it's a great idea to build underground! Your outer-leaf is then extremely massive (the entire planet...) and also extremely well damped (the entire planet...). So from purely isolation, it's a great idea, and is indeed why most basement studios usually work out very well.

I'd say there are several reasons why it isn't so common, but probably cost is the biggest. You need to pay someone to dig a huge hole in the ground for you to start with, which isn't cheap. Then, since the surrounding earth can exert enormous pressure on your walls, you can't just build them from 2x4 studs with OSB on the outside: those walls need to be rather more substantial than that, which is why most basements are done with concrete blocks, or just plain poured concrete walls. All of that adds to the cost, as compared to just building a place on top of the ground. But once you have that "shell" structure in place, the actual studio can be built in the same way as for any other studio, with stud framing and drywall for each of the rooms, and the isolation between those rooms can be whatever you want it to be, by designing the walls suitably. From that point of view, the build is the same as for other studios. The big difference is that you'll have fantastic isolation to the outside world, since you are using the ground for that.

There might also be other, more practical issues, such as waterproofing your walls and floor properly, and arranging the access doors so that water cannot flow when if it rains. And also the load-in and load-out of equipment and instruments won't be so easy, since you'll have to lug all of that up and down stairs, whereas if it were on the ground level it would just be a straight path, no stairs. Some people also like a lot of natural light in their studios, which is hard to do if it is full buried underground.

But those might not be big issues for you, and there are ways around them.

So overall, there's no acoustic reason why you could not do it, and good acoustic reasons why you should do it. It seems the number one drawback is money: it's more expensive to do it this way. So if money is no problem then I'd say: go for it!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:39 am 
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Thanks Stuart, you are a life saver-

So I want to somewhat delicately say a couple things without going on record, because I intend to be legit with the city and keep costs low (my current income is 100% original music and this endeavor has to be profitable). My intent here will be to build a commercial facility that is booked with multiple freelance clientele as well as myself in the range ~150hrs a week (two operable control rooms). My city zoning is generally favorable to artistic "grey area" endeavors, and there is a window in which this could be financed *best*.

This is my total income source so 50k-100k more to be harley and helicopter proof and still be close to the major byways is money well spent when amortized over the next 30 years. I have to have parking, a fire system and ADA. So a scissor lift (surprisingly not that expensive) would be in the budget.

Would be looking at hopefully ~100-150k for the shell and ~200-250k for the buildout and I have tools and experience with framing and friends in the construction field. Being able to operate both control rooms simultaneously would be a necessity. Thanks-


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:16 am 
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It certainly sounds like you have the budget to do this right, and you have thought it through carefully, which is good!

For your parking: if the lot is big enough, how about making that underground too? Or at least a couple of bays underground, for easy ADA access, and easy load-in, load-out of gear, instruments and people.

I'd also suggest that you could put all your offices, service areas, green room, storage, and etc. upstairs, above the studio, at ground level, so you don't have to dig an even bigger hole for those too. If you have that lift, then it makes access to those easier. However, don't forget that the lift itself is an electro-mechanical device, with motors and mechanisms that make a noise: you do need to design that carefully, to keep the noise out of your studio! It would be rather sad to incest all that money, then have to halt tracking each time someone uses the lift... :) That is is going to be impact noise (structure-borne) too, so it needs to be killed at the source.

Just one more thing to be aware of... There's about one million and forty seven things you have to consider when designing a studio (give or take about 5...) :) And any one of those can be a "total success or total failure" type of issue. The things that people tend to forget in studio design, or not pay anywhere near enough attention to, are: 1) HVAC, 2) Seals, 3) Electrical system, 4) Doors, 5) Windows, 6) Structural Engineering, 7) Isolation, 8) Acoustics, 9) Murphy. They last one is the most important of all: Murphy takes great pleasure in destroying studios...

I hear what you are saying about the construction and the regulations. Have you looked into that in detail?

Also, I'm just wondering out loud here: if you are investing all this money and effort in a major facility like this, maybe it would be a good idea to hire someone like John himself to do the studio design for you? It's not nearly as simple as you might imagine! Some of the studios I have designed have taken me far longer than I expected, since there's just so many ways to trade off one thing against another, and so many things to take into account with each change. If you are not aware of them all, and have never designed a studio before yourself, then it would probably be very wise to hire someone who has to either walk you through it and check you every step of the way, or to just plain do it all for you.

Quote:
I have tools and experience with framing and friends in the construction field.
That's excellent! It's always good to have people you trust doing the work, and it can certainly save you money if you do a lot of the labor yourself. However, you should be aware that building a studio is unlike building a house, office, shop, or school: Same materials, same tools, but many of the techniques are different, so that's something you should take into account as well.

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oughly 3000+ sf with one large room, two big booths, two control rooms, ... Being able to operate both control rooms simultaneously would be a necessity.
So if I understand you correctly, you would nee a layout where both of the booths and the live room can be assigned to either of the control rooms, independently, or perhaps to both at once? In other words, you need good sight lines from each control room into both booths and also the live room, and cabling from all rooms to all other rooms, for maximum flexibility? Is that the basic idea? So, or example, you might have a session going in in CR#1 where you are tracking a band in the live room with vocals in booth #1, while in CR#2 you are re-amping a guitar track using only booth #2, then in the next session all three rooms are used by CR#2 while CR#1 is just mixing, all by himself?

That's the way I would suggest that you lay it out. Connect everything to everything, both visually and electronically, while also having easy access paths between all of the rooms, as well as easy load-in/load-out.

Sounds like a fun place! I'm really looking forward to seeing how this develops.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:00 am 
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Thanks Stuart-

So yeah very early stages so really just beginning to think it though, probably 4-5+ years from having something built, but business has been really good lately so hopefully looking to buy the property in the near future.

Yeah I think ideally I would need to hire a pro for at least part of the process. The best would be to have a framework where I can hire in some help for iso, hvac, seals, windows, doors, structural eng, murphy!....but I would like to do a lot of the final tweaking/measuring/listening (<- wash, rinse, repeat), on my own. Not because I think I'm better at it, but because I can afford to put a lot of time into it, part of it being the experience of working in the space...I've never built a studio from the ground up, but have done the buildout in my current space and assisted with (and measured/listened/tweaked etc) a number of others.

But yeah I have been looking into zoning/building regs in the various cities/counties in my area. This is one of the reasons for looking into underground, as some zonings won't allow for a very high structure to be built, but there is not a lot of regulation for what you can do underground. I think the upstairs from the studio being green rooms, office and even some teaching/production suits is a great idea.

Also the drive up access is something I will have to keep in mind if it is feasible, and very good points on the lift.

Yeah, connecting everything to everything would be necessary. I am tentatively planning for some tough sheds on ground level that would be amp closets, so the main studio space can have the minimum of rooms, max volume for each. The idea would be that elements of the studio can be booked ala carte. I still want to be able to provide excellent and extremely efficient service for musicians on tight budgets, as well as move the ceiling up a bit for those who are a more well-heeled...Also I want to create a home base for many freelancers and get the water-cooler effect in full swing.

Thanks for the thoughts Stuart and anything anyone thinks of is appreciated.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:43 pm 
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hey Ryan, sounds like you've got ideas for a great build here and I too am looking forward to seeing how all this develops :D

I would 2nd what Stuart says:

Soundman2020 wrote:
maybe it would be a good idea to hire someone like John himself to do the studio design for you? It's not nearly as simple as you might imagine!


With the complexity of what you're looking at and the budget you're planning on I'd say having someone like John on board would be almost essential if you haven't built a studio before. Whatever the cost for professional consultation and/or design would be, it'd be negated in the time and headaches you will save yourself.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:04 am 
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Thanks-

Yes I definitely know that hiring in a pro will be well worth it. Not trying to skirt around that at all but I am way early in the process so also trying to get a good idea of what types of properties I should be looking at, and to very tentatively start planning and learning so I can be as prepared as possible. But I will want to get a design that at the least leaves me with a frame that I can use to experiment with slats/diffusers/absorption etc so that it can be measured/listened-to/tweaked over time.

Part of the reason for investigating underground construction is zoning related. This is going to be in the middle of town here so there are more restrictions of course than in rural areas, however underground structures have a lot less restrictions...

So a couple questions, if the roof of the studio is the floor for an upstairs green rooms, offices etc, it should presumably be concrete as well? Would it be bad if part of the underground foundation was above ground (regarding isolation from outside)?

Is it possible to make a good rolling drum riser that is a concrete slab or layers of dens-glass etc on iso mounts on castors? I'm thinking of this more for in session efficiency than iso from flanking. But is it possible to build something big/heavy enough to do a bit of both?

Also if so much concrete work is being done already, would it make the most sense to make the walls between CR, Booth, and LR all from concrete? Presumably with some sort of slab iso-joints between all of them? I have read that slab iso-joints are not as effective for LF, but I also see them in use in build threads...thanks again-


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:35 am 
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Regarding the last question, what works very good because I've seen it, is that you make one wall out of concrete, that is also part of the outer leaf ( this outer leaf now becomes for instance you big live room, you can take advantage of the concrete or brick wall for room live ness and control the rest with focused treatment) , and then you make the inner leaf of the next room with framing.

This is what I'm talking about, sorry the crap design I used the iPad
Blue is concrete and gray is framing, always you get two leafs between rooms and outer leaf itself is live room, dampens by planet earth underground.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:53 am 
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RyanC wrote:
Also if so much concrete work is being done already, would it make the most sense to make the walls between CR, Booth, and LR all from concrete?


As far as density/mass goes I think you'd have to build your walls out of solid lead to get better isolation than concrete. However....the complexity of forming up walls with openings for doorways, windows etc would be a seriously complex task. You could perhaps get walls prefabbed from concrete and craned in to place but I think the cost would be more than significant for that kind of work.

Another way to get that kind of isolation is to build besser block walls for your internal shell and then core fill them with concrete. This allows for door and window penetrations to be constructed very easily and I believe would be a lot more cost effective.

I probably don't need to say it, but work on this scale is going to need some seriously engineered construction plans from suitably qualified people to calculate loads etc :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:12 am 
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A two leaf system consisting on one concrete wall and 3 drywall layer the other I guarantee you will get excellent isolation.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:49 am 
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So yeah very early stages so really just beginning to think it though, probably 4-5+ years from having something built, but business has been really good lately so hopefully looking to buy the property in the near future.
Plan on about a year for the actual studio design, independent of the building architecture. They go together, hand-in-hand, or course, but there's just so much to consider in the acoustic design of the rooms, from both the isolation and treatment points of view, as well as with issues such as sight lines, access paths, HVAC, electrical, etc. To get it done right for a facility like this, I'd allow a year for the design phase, with multiple alternative layouts at first, then continuous iterative refinement of the best one, until the final design is reached.

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Yeah I think ideally I would need to hire a pro for at least part of the process.
Earlier rather than later! If you look over some of the threads here on the forum, you'll find plenty where folks have left it too late to get a professional studio designer involved, and have then had to backtrack and re-do a lot of stuff, either on paper (not too bad) or in actual construction (expensive!). There's more than just a few cases of people having to tear things down and re-build them after they find the forum and we set them straight. Fortunately, those that have done so have gone on to build great studios. And those that haven't... well, we usually don't hear from them again, and never see a completed studio...

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The best would be to have a framework where I can hire in some help for iso, hvac, seals, windows, doors, structural eng,
All of that goes together, generally. Decisions made about the isolation system have a direct impact on how the room will be treated, and also greatly affect how the HVAC system can be done. Windows and doors are part of the isolation system, but also part of the overall plan regarding sight-lines, access, and of course acoustics. You should really have only one person doing all of that, then hire in the individual contractors later in the game, for their input. For example, after all of the basic HVAC layout is done, then bring in the HVAC contractor to confirm all the calculations for flow rates, speeds, duct sizes, static pressure, sensible heat load, latent heat load, noise criteria, etc., and based on that to select the actual air handler(s), heat pump(s), controller(s), heat exchanger(s), etc. If you bring the HVAC guy in up-front, he will very likley make decisions that affect both isolation and acoustics, when in reality it should be the other way around: It's a STUDIO! So acoustics and isolation take center stage, and the HVAC has to fit in around that. The same applies to the window guy, the electrical guy, the interior decorator, etc. Everything takes a back seat to the actual acoustic design, but of course still has to be considered!

Quote:
but I would like to do a lot of the final tweaking/measuring/listening (<- wash, rinse, repeat), on my own. Not because I think I'm better at it, but because I can afford to put a lot of time into it, part of it being the experience of working in the space...I've never built a studio from the ground up, but have done the buildout in my current space and assisted with (and measured/listened/tweaked etc) a number of others. ... want to get a design that at the least leaves me with a frame that I can use to experiment with slats/diffusers/absorption etc so that it can be measured/listened-to/tweaked over time.
Of course! It's YOUR place, so you should decide how you want it to sound, for sure! But having said that, there are already guidelines and specifications for how studios should sound. You should probably look into documents from the EBU (Tech-3276 and 3276s1, the Hoeg Technical Review report from 1997, etc.), the ITU (BS1116-1 and BS775-1), the AES (AESTD1001.01.01.10), and even the paper by Makivirta and Anet from AES111. You don't need to reinvent the wheel with control room acoustics: the basics for a successful room are already out there, and the decisions made in the actual layout stage are fundamental to your actual being able to tweak it later to your personal likings! Now amount of tweaking can fix a fundamentally bad room, and you might even find that a well-designed room needs little or even no tweaking at all... :)

For your tracking rooms, sure, tweak, prod, poke and modify as much as you want! That is, after all, why artists will want to come to your place to record: because they like the way it sounds. So your tracking room (and even your booths) certainly can and should be tweaked the way you want them. But the basic goal for a control room is "neutral response", in both the frequency domain and time domain, and that pretty much has to be designed in from the start. Decisions made early on regarding room shape, size, layout, angles, etc. can either improve the room acoustics greatly, or totally prevent you fro ever getting it to a usable state.

You probably already know all of the above, but it never hurts to repeat hear it again! :)

So what I'm trying to say here, is that it would be a really good idea for you to get the studio designer involved at the earliest stages of your planning, as his/her input can guide in the process, saving you big $$$$ (and headaches!) down the line. You can probably arrange some type of "pay as you go" agreement, that allows you to do that without having to pay for the entire design before you even know where you want to build it.


Quote:
I am tentatively planning for some tough sheds on ground level that would be amp closets,
Right, but take care with that: floor isolation is hard to do for rooms that are not sitting directly on Mother Earth. A bass cab turned up to 11 and sitting on a second floor concrete slab can introduce impact noise and vibration into the building structure itself, and when that happens, all bets are off regarding good isolation...

Yes, you could do that, but you'll need to pay careful attention to isolating the amps from the floors.

That also raises another point: access. Do you really want to be running up/down stairs between booth and CR, to re-position the mic on your electric guitar cab 16 times until you get it just right? Then a few more times to tweak the controls on the amp? It might be better to have the iso booths close to the control room. That's part of the "access" thing.


Quote:
So a couple questions, if the roof of the studio is the floor for an upstairs green rooms, offices etc, it should presumably be concrete as well?
Right! And thick. And hopefully damped too. And protected from impact noise coming from above.

Quote:
Would it be bad if part of the underground foundation was above ground (regarding isolation from outside)?
Sorry, I lost you there: How can the underground foundation be above ground ? Are you asking if your foundation walls, which start way below ground level, can also extend upwards above ground level, to become the outer walls of the offices? If so, then yes, that's not a problem.

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Is it possible to make a good rolling drum riser that is a concrete slab or layers of dens-glass etc on iso mounts on castors?
I wouldn't make a drum riser from concrete, although it sure is possible to do that if you want. It would just be darn heavy, and would have some dangerous inertia as you pushed it around the room. You don't want a few thousand pounds of concrete moving at a few MPH suddenly encountering your AKG414 stands, or your brand new drum kit, or your U47... or your foot! I would go for a more traditional drum riser, built from plywood and 703. Even that is heavy enough to move by yourself... And the issue with putting a riser on casters is decoupling: the whole point of a riser is to break all mechanical contact between the riser platform and the floor, so just using ordinary casters is not going to do that. You'd have to design a suspension system that keeps the riser properly "floating" (in the acoustical sense), regardless of the load on top. Or make the casters removable/retractable.

On the other hand, in a properly designed drum booth, built from the ground up, there shouldn't really be any need at all for a riser: there should be enough isolation designed in from the start so that no riser is needed, especially considering your budget: you have enough to do that. Risers are more suitable for situations where the existing building dictated the necessity for using them, or there wasn't enough budget to fully isolate the room. Risers also have another downside: the reduce your room height. Your overheads get closer to the ceiling than they need to be, thus increasing the possibility of having artifacts from above, such as comb-filtering or other phasing issues.

Quote:
Also if so much concrete work is being done already, would it make the most sense to make the walls between CR, Booth, and LR all from concrete? Presumably with some sort of slab iso-joints between all of them? I have read that slab iso-joints are not as effective for LF, but I also see them in use in build threads
Well, once again, it could be done like that, but probably does not need to be done like that. It is possible to float walls/floors/entire rooms, but the cost is prohibitive for most people. The best isolated studio on the planet (Galaxy, in Belgium) has each room built as it's own self-contained concrete shell, weighting hundreds of tons, and each room is individually floated on giant springs plus polymer pads. And it cost several times your budget to achieve that... (that's considering that your budget is already pretty good!) They did managed to get over 100 dB of isolation between rooms, though, which was their design goal. That's pretty darn amazing, actually!

So you could go with the "all-concrete" plan, either floated or not floated. It is possible, and will give you really good isolation. Most people don't do that, once again due to cost. You can still get darn good isolation from plain old 2x4 studs with multiple layers of drywall plus Green Glue, for a fraction of the cost. It is conceivable to get 70 dB or more of isolation from that type of construction, which is also pretty darn good, and won't cost you millions of dollars.

As Steve said, an easier path might be to do the inner walls with concrete blocks.

Where I live (Chile) many houses are built as concrete "frames" (slabs, columns and beams), with the gaps then filled in with ordinary brick. That is done mainly for the structural strength it provides (Chile is the earthquake capital of the world, and has the toughest seismic building codes on the planet), but it also gives really good isolation, and works very well as an outer leaf. That might be another option for you.

Do you have any actual real estate lots in mind? Photos might help is get a better idea of what you are thinking of.

To be honest, I'm fascinated by your project, and really do hope it happens sooner rather than later! I'm really looking forward to seeing it coming together, and maybe helping you along as you go. You got me hooked!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:34 pm 
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Ah so much great information-

I'm going to re- read everything here several times.

So would it be weird if I posted a bit of a bio and what my career path has been and what I'm sort of envisioning? I'm well aware of how much isolation 100dB is, and I don't need that, i can navigate my clients and have so far done a good job of helping freelancers to do the same...

Also Stuart, regarding control rooms/speakers I'm very deep down the Floyd Toole/Earl Geddes constant directivity rabbit hole, which I think can relax/change control room necessities. Certainly the best geometry for constant directivity is not the same as ideal room geometry for max H directivity speakers.

Ah and also Stuart I know the exact type of construction you are talking about, my lifelong friend lives in Argentina, and especially along the cost lines (Necochea) I saw them building exactly that way...and you can feel it in the walls (concrete frame/brick walls even indoors in a condo). In the states I doubt it's cost effective, true masons here are master craftsmen (expensive) and the other 'masons' know the gig but require constant oversight...not really a lot of bricklaying going on at this point, worth looking into though.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:56 pm 
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stevev wrote:
RyanC wrote:
Also if so much concrete work is being done already, would it make the most sense to make the walls between CR, Booth, and LR all from concrete?


As far as density/mass goes I think you'd have to build your walls out of solid lead to get better isolation than concrete. However....the complexity of forming up walls with openings for doorways, windows etc would be a seriously complex task. You could perhaps get walls prefabbed from concrete and craned in to place but I think the cost would be more than significant for that kind of work.

Another way to get that kind of isolation is to build besser block walls for your internal shell and then core fill them with concrete. This allows for door and window penetrations to be constructed very easily and I believe would be a lot more cost effective.

I probably don't need to say it, but work on this scale is going to need some seriously engineered construction plans from suitably qualified people to calculate loads etc :shock:



Right, good point forms can only be made in so many ways. I just ment in the practical sense what 'concrete walls' are made of. We have some in our current building, I've had the pleasure of having to carve a groove for some armoured cable.

And of course, I'm looking to build legit with the city here, so proper mechanical engineering would not be optional.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Hey Ryan, I sent you a PM a couple of days ago: did you get it?

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