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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:57 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Hey I'm back!

I know I've been MIA for a while, just got busy with life stuff.

So here's an update I currently building the silencer boxes, here a few photos:
Attachment:
IMG_0431.jpg

Attachment:
IMG_0445.jpg

Attachment:
IMG_0444.jpg

Attachment:
IMG_0443.jpg

Attachment:
IMG_0441.jpg

The "shelves" inside the boxes are fastened using these small angle clips with 5/8" screws. You can see them in the shadow in the first pic (no screws in them yet)
The insulation was attached using some 3M spray adhesive and then fastened with 1-1/4" screws with big washers, just barely compressing the insulation, just so the washer is not loose.

EDIT/UPDATE: THIS POST WAS WAY TOO LONG - I HAVE SHORTENED IT TO JUST THE 2 ACTUAL QUESTIONS I HAVE:

Question 1:
Can/Should I use SC-175 acoustic sealant on the inside of the box to seal the edges of the duct liner insulation? (SEE PHOTOS)
This is to prevent fibers from coming loose into the air-stream over time.
Normally, in metal duct, this is achieved with the use of what is called "nosing" which is just an additional piece of metal that covers the exposed edges of insulation.

Question 2:
Back to Door Frames for a minute - I know that MLV has very few practical uses - however I am still deciding exactly how to do my door frames. As of now I am going with rods "THROUGH-FRAME" which couples the leaves together. I don't like that.

So I am wondering If I can go with the following idea:
Attachment:
DOC071118-page-001 (1).jpg


This would only require a VERY MINIMAL amount of MLV - maybe a 3" wide strip all around the door. Maybe 2 layers if deemed necessary?

Would this be one of the few good uses of MLV? You guys think this would work?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:22 am 
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Posts: 359
Location: California USA
Hey Rich,

Decided to check out your thread questions for fun.

I didn't do any caulking in my silencer boxes, though I can't say its a bad idea. Too late for me now. Everything seems fine here. Of course without sending any dust off for analysis, who knows? I didn't use fender washers on them either which is kinda dumb in hindsight. What was I thinking? :lol:

Attachment:
20160503_130150.jpg


I'm wondering how come there aren't 2 doors in your wall design? I don't have a need to cover the gaps between my walls because I have a door on each wall. The space between the 2 doors becomes part of the decoupling space and so no isolation is necessary. Not doing a door on each wall?
Attachment:
20180713_111917.jpg


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am 
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Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Hey Stadank!!! Thanks for checking it out!

Quote:
I'm wondering how come there aren't 2 doors in your wall design?


:cry: Unfortunately, I don't have the room to put 2 doors. If you look at the door to enter the studio at the bottom of the stairs, there no way to have a door swing out because the stairs are in the way. That right there limited me to go with the single heavy duty door design.

Attachment:
BASEMENT STUDIO - 30.jpg


Since I was already doing (1) single door - I figured I may as well do both that way :?

I COULD use a 2-door system between the control room and the live room (Its actually not too late to do that), but I don't know how much that would help my overall isolation since I'm already forced to do the (1) single door.

If (for example) I lose 5dB of isolation by using a singe door - does that mean I'll lose 10dB if i use (2)?

I also really like the idea of an artist not having to do anything other than push 1 door open to get into the booth, and having it close and seal on its own. There's always the need to go back into the booth and fix a line, ya know, lots of traffic between the control room and booth.

As of now - this is what I'm planning (from Rod's book)
Attachment:
DOOR OPTION 1.jpg


This is so counterintuitive to me that I'm trying to find a better way. With the MLV, I'm hoping to have the continuous mass, while also decoupling the walls.


P.s. your silencer boxes look great and your doors look AMAZING!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:17 am 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
there no way to have a door swing out because the stairs are in the way.
So get rid of the stairs then! Overrated. Just jump.

:shot: :mrgreen:

Any chance you could fit two half-doors in there, that meet in the middle, for the second door? It won't be as good as two complete doors, of course, but much better than just one. Having just one door puts a heavy limit on what you can achieve, with isolation. Mass-law is not your friend.

Also, I normally have at least three studs on each side of a door frame: Those doors are HEAVY! You need lots of good, rigid support at the back, to keep things straight and plumb. Also use at least three noggins in the first bay out to each side, then two in the next bay, and then down to one for al the others. So instead of being 48" OC (vertically) in the first bay, they will be more like 18" OC, then maybe 24" in the second, etc. Frame the hell out of doorways and windows!.

Quote:
If (for example) I lose 5dB of isolation by using a singe door - does that mean I'll lose 10dB if i use (2)?
You'll lose a LOT more than 5 dB by having only a single door! Your isolation is limited by mass law:

TL = 14.5 log Ms + 23 dB (where: Ms = Surface Mass in lb/ft2 )

Do the math: I think you won't like what you see. You need ginormous amounts of mass to get decent isolation. You seem to be aiming for about 50 dB isolation with your walls, so turn the mass-law equation around and see how much mass you need on your door to reach 50 dB... :) :wink:

Quote:
I COULD use a 2-door system between the control room and the live room (Its actually not too late to do that), but I don't know how much that would help my overall isolation
IT would do wonders for the isolation between CR and LR, for sure! Your "single-door" dilemma is only between the CR and the outside world, and has no real effect on the isolation of the LR.

Quote:
This is so counterintuitive to me that I'm trying to find a better way. With the MLV, I'm hoping to have the continuous mass, while also decoupling the walls.
I would not use MLV for that: it's too heavy and not flexible enough for good isolation, plus it's a bitch to work with: tears easily, hard to seal, etc. I would suggest Sobrbothane sheet, but that's going to be REAL expensive!


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:37 am 
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Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Stuart! :yahoo: Hey!

Quote:
Any chance you could fit two half-doors in there, that meet in the middle, for the second door?


Do you mean something like a french door?
Attachment:
narrow-french-doors-amazing-narrow-french-doors-dining-chairs-ideas-inside-narrow-exterior-french-doors-narrow-french-doors-with-transom.jpg


Quote:
IT would do wonders for the isolation between CR and LR, for sure! Your "single-door" dilemma is only between the CR and the outside world, and has no real effect on the isolation of the LR.


Its mainly isolation to the outside world (sister lives upstairs) that is my main concern. I really am mostly tracking vocals, so losing a bit of isolation between live room and controls is not too much of a concern. I do have drums in there, but rarely if ever record them, just there because my band comes over to jam in that room.
I wouldn't mind having 2 doors at the bottom of the stairs if I could fit it. I'll do some measurement and sketchuping to see if this french door thing fits at the bottom of the stairs. Great suggestion Stuart!

Quote:
Also, I normally have at least three studs on each side of a door frame: Those doors are HEAVY! You need lots of good, rigid support at the back, to keep things straight and plumb. Also use at least three noggins in the first bay out to each side, then two in the next bay, and then down to one for al the others. So instead of being 48" OC (vertically) in the first bay, they will be more like 18" OC, then maybe 24" in the second, etc. Frame the hell out of doorways and windows!.


Gotcha! thanks I was unaware about the extra noggins, thank you!!

Quote:
I would suggest Sobrbothane sheet, but that's going to be REAL expensive!


I'll look into pricing up Sorbothane - although I don't actually need a lot of it - I guess it sort of depends on how its sold (sheets/rolls?) I'm assuming they don't sell it in 3" wide strips lol.

I


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:53 am 
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Well you got a response from the man, so I'm gonna leave that right there.. :lol:

That is a vexing situation though. I feel for ya.... :-?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:14 am 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
Stuart! :yahoo: Hey!
It's been a while! Glad to see you back again!! :thu:

Quote:
Do you mean something like a french door?
That's the general idea, yes.

Quote:
I really am mostly tracking vocals, so losing a bit of isolation between live room and controls is not too much of a concern.
Not worried about sound from the speakers in the CR getting into the LR mics? :)

Quote:
I wouldn't mind having 2 doors at the bottom of the stairs if I could fit it. I'll do some measurement and sketchuping to see if this french door thing fits at the bottom of the stairs. Great suggestion Stuart!
:thu: That's what you are paying so much for! Cool ideas like this... :)

Quote:
I'll look into pricing up Sorbothane - although I don't actually need a lot of it - I guess it sort of depends on how its sold (sheets/rolls?) I'm assuming they don't sell it in 3" wide strips lol.
They sell it in sheets, up to 24" by 24" IIRC, but you can certainly cut it into strips with a sharp knife. But do be prepared for "sticker shock".

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:41 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:57 pm
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Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Wow - it's been almost a year since my last post! :shock:

I have been making a lot of progress with my build - but as usual, it's taking way longer and more expensive than I expected.

I sort of ran out of the money I had saved aside for the build, and essentially had to start saving up again (or just spending money as soon as I got it). i did manage to get most of the high price items out of the way (bathroom is finished, A/C Unit is purchased and installed (not connected yet thought). I still have to get doors, glass, fabric, insulation for treatment, TONS still left and money to spend - but at least none of those items cost $3,500 each (I'm looking at you A/C Unit)

Aside from that, the weekends are the only time I have to actually work on the build....so its been slow.

One major issue is that almost ALL of the progress photos I took with my good camera - are GONE! I let my sister borrow the camera and the SD card went missing so I lost all of my photos :cen:

I do have photos I took on my phone but I was mostly documenting the build with the good camera.

I guess I haven't had too many particular pressing issues, which is why I haven't been on here as much, but it looks like I am at a point where I will need some advice again soon. I have tons of questions but this post will mainly be a build update from what little photos I do have.

I'll try to stay chronological.

Framing Control Room Progress:
Attachment:
General Framing Progress Control room.jpg


Earlier in the build I had removed some support columns and installed a massive I- Beam to free up floor space. To support the long span of the control room ceiling (and due to the fact i had to run my new CJ's parallel to existing floor joists) - I also had to install (2) smaller I-Beams. So there are (3) I-Beams running down the middle of the control room. The large one is part of the house (and outer leaf) while the (2) smaller ones are not coupled to the outer leaf at all, and are supported from the inner leaf walls. To support the beams I had to install 4x4's directly underneath where the beams would sit in the wall framing, essentially creating these beam pockets.

Framing for Beams (4x4's):
Attachment:
4x4 Framing for steel beams.jpg


Smaller Steel Beams (packed out with 2x4's):
Attachment:
Small Beams Packed Out.jpg


The ceiling is essentially 2 halfs - the front half is supported by the inner leaf wall in the front of the room (as normal) but the other end of the ceiling rests on this steel beam. The same goes for the back half of the ceiling, one end is supported by the rear wall - the other rests on the beam. The 2x6 joists are tied into the steel beam using joist hangers.

Here's what I plan for the finished look of the beams - I had this gap in between (I'm sure I could have used this for acoustic treatment, but I went for aesthetics instead)

Gap between beams:
Attachment:
Steel Beams Encased.jpg


I decided to go with some backlighting LED type of thing. Here it is with temporarily testing some LED strips up there so I can get an idea:
Attachment:
Steel Beam LED 1.jpg

Attachment:
Steel Beam LED 2.JPG


pretty cool yeah?

here's another view of the mostly completed control room ceiling with the steel beams:
Attachment:
Ceiling Mods on Beams.jpg


one interesting thing is that one of the 4x4's meant to support the steel beam - could not be placed directly underneath beam because of the door opening (you can see this on my sketchup)
What I needed to do was re-do my door header - and instead of 2x6's with 1/2 plywood in between - I used a 1/2" thick steel plate. So my door header is (2) 2x6's with a steel plate sandwiched in between.
Attachment:
Steel in Door Header.jpg



Here's a shot of the Booth - shows some progress on the conduits as well:
Attachment:
Ceiling and Conduit Booth.jpg


and here is my gf celebrating the conduits being done:
Attachment:
Amy Celebrating Dance Booth.jpg


Also did the laminate flooring!!!!!!
Attachment:
Flooring Progress Booth.jpg


Here's the Air Hanlder (still needs to be connected ducts, refrigerant and electric) only thing done is the hot water coil and that metal base on the bottom with the corcular cut out is a custom piece I had fabricated to support the unit and double as a plenum box (the units inlet is on the bottom)
Attachment:
Air Hanlder.jpg


Another big thing i got done was the concrete speaker stands!!
Attachment:
Conc Speaker Stand 1.jpg

Attachment:
Conc Speaker Stand 2.jpg


this is me sitting on the bottom piece of mdf that will be the speaker boxes. all the holes were lined up with the Sorbothane pads.
Attachment:
Me On Conc Stand.jpg


aaand here is my gf celebrating the concrete stand being done lol:
Attachment:
Amy Celebrate Concrete.jpg



Can anyone confirm if these attached photos are right side up? On my phone there are all correct, on desktop they are not


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Last edited by richroyc on Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:44 am 
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Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Ok so it looks like I need to go back and re-do that last post :cen:

All my pics got flipped again - I forgot that constantly happens one here.

I've run out of time at the moment so I'll have to fix it later.

Here is the most recent pic taken just the other day - it wouldn't fit in the last post:
Attachment:
IMG_4431.jpg

Attachment:
IMG_4432.jpg


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:41 am 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
Another big thing i got done was the concrete speaker stands!!
What speakers are you planning to put on those? Something pretty huge, by the looks of it. And massively heavy, too: with seventeen 1" studs, that would be about right for floating a speaker that weighs around 300 pounds, minimum, and perhaps as much as around 1300 pounds, depending on what duro rating they are... I'm fascinated to see what your plans are.

Quote:
this is me sitting on the bottom piece of mdf that will be the speaker boxes. all the holes were lined up with the Sorbothane pads.
Not sure if I understand you correctly, but if you are saying there will be even more Sorbothane in your system, then be careful with that! If you have rubber pads under the speaker itself inside the enclosure box, and also rubber pads under the enclosure box (on top of your CMU stands), that's the same as a three-leaf system. It can work, but it's much harder to tune, and of course the final resonant frequency is higher than for either the F+ or F-by itself, and higher than what a SDoF system would have been. If that's what you are talking about, then there's some rather complex math needed to figure all of that out.

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:59 am 
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Stuart!! It's been a while! Great to hear from you!

Yes the speakers are extremely large they are Urei 813's. I believe the speakers plus the mdf boxes came to around 520 lbs each.

You actually helped me do the calculations on how many of those pads to use. They are Duro 50 and with the 17 pads they are at 22% deflection.

There is no additional sorbothane planned in the system, just the pads you see in the photos. The mdf boxes will be built snugly/tightly around the speakers. I was not planning on having any rubber between the actual speaker and the mdf box. I am hoping this is not a mistake, I got the advice to do that from this site as well.

Here are some screen grabs from a previous post showing this.
Attachment:
Speaker and Stand.jpg

Attachment:
Stand with Pads and Speaker.jpg


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Location: USA Pacific Northwest
Been reading your thread with interest. Did you ever make a decision on the roller latches for the door? I was considering the exact same thing. I figured two of those, plus the closer should keep the door held snug against the seals. I also need to figure out how to lock my outer door. I'd rather not simply attach a hasp and padlock.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:07 am 
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Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Hey ZSXI!

Thanks for checking out the thread!! For the doors I am planning on using the roller latches + auto door closer with a pull bar handle. I have seen the roller latches used before at another studio I work at occasionally and they seem to be okay.

Maybe you could use an external deadbolt for your door? It's also not extremely nice looking, but better than a hasp and padlock - they probably make nice-looking ones as well.
Attachment:
external deadbolt.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:09 am 
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actually come to think of it - I think those deadbolts are always installed inside the apartment because the screws are accessible to anyone who may want to break in......

:(


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Hmm, that's true. I'm looking into electromagnetic options. It would just have to be "foolproof" in the sense that a person could not become locked in. Also it would need some kind of battery backup so the intruder can't just shut the power off. My breaker panel will be there right next to the door.


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