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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:57 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Hey I'm back!

I know I've been MIA for a while, just got busy with life stuff.

So here's an update I currently building the silencer boxes, here a few photos:
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IMG_0431.jpg

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IMG_0443.jpg

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IMG_0441.jpg

The "shelves" inside the boxes are fastened using these small angle clips with 5/8" screws. You can see them in the shadow in the first pic (no screws in them yet)
The insulation was attached using some 3M spray adhesive and then fastened with 1-1/4" screws with big washers, just barely compressing the insulation, just so the washer is not loose.

EDIT/UPDATE: THIS POST WAS WAY TOO LONG - I HAVE SHORTENED IT TO JUST THE 2 ACTUAL QUESTIONS I HAVE:

Question 1:
Can/Should I use SC-175 acoustic sealant on the inside of the box to seal the edges of the duct liner insulation? (SEE PHOTOS)
This is to prevent fibers from coming loose into the air-stream over time.
Normally, in metal duct, this is achieved with the use of what is called "nosing" which is just an additional piece of metal that covers the exposed edges of insulation.

Question 2:
Back to Door Frames for a minute - I know that MLV has very few practical uses - however I am still deciding exactly how to do my door frames. As of now I am going with rods "THROUGH-FRAME" which couples the leaves together. I don't like that.

So I am wondering If I can go with the following idea:
Attachment:
DOC071118-page-001 (1).jpg


This would only require a VERY MINIMAL amount of MLV - maybe a 3" wide strip all around the door. Maybe 2 layers if deemed necessary?

Would this be one of the few good uses of MLV? You guys think this would work?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 359
Location: California USA
Hey Rich,

Decided to check out your thread questions for fun.

I didn't do any caulking in my silencer boxes, though I can't say its a bad idea. Too late for me now. Everything seems fine here. Of course without sending any dust off for analysis, who knows? I didn't use fender washers on them either which is kinda dumb in hindsight. What was I thinking? :lol:

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20160503_130150.jpg


I'm wondering how come there aren't 2 doors in your wall design? I don't have a need to cover the gaps between my walls because I have a door on each wall. The space between the 2 doors becomes part of the decoupling space and so no isolation is necessary. Not doing a door on each wall?
Attachment:
20180713_111917.jpg


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:57 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Hey Stadank!!! Thanks for checking it out!

Quote:
I'm wondering how come there aren't 2 doors in your wall design?


:cry: Unfortunately, I don't have the room to put 2 doors. If you look at the door to enter the studio at the bottom of the stairs, there no way to have a door swing out because the stairs are in the way. That right there limited me to go with the single heavy duty door design.

Attachment:
BASEMENT STUDIO - 30.jpg


Since I was already doing (1) single door - I figured I may as well do both that way :?

I COULD use a 2-door system between the control room and the live room (Its actually not too late to do that), but I don't know how much that would help my overall isolation since I'm already forced to do the (1) single door.

If (for example) I lose 5dB of isolation by using a singe door - does that mean I'll lose 10dB if i use (2)?

I also really like the idea of an artist not having to do anything other than push 1 door open to get into the booth, and having it close and seal on its own. There's always the need to go back into the booth and fix a line, ya know, lots of traffic between the control room and booth.

As of now - this is what I'm planning (from Rod's book)
Attachment:
DOOR OPTION 1.jpg


This is so counterintuitive to me that I'm trying to find a better way. With the MLV, I'm hoping to have the continuous mass, while also decoupling the walls.


P.s. your silencer boxes look great and your doors look AMAZING!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11929
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
there no way to have a door swing out because the stairs are in the way.
So get rid of the stairs then! Overrated. Just jump.

:shot: :mrgreen:

Any chance you could fit two half-doors in there, that meet in the middle, for the second door? It won't be as good as two complete doors, of course, but much better than just one. Having just one door puts a heavy limit on what you can achieve, with isolation. Mass-law is not your friend.

Also, I normally have at least three studs on each side of a door frame: Those doors are HEAVY! You need lots of good, rigid support at the back, to keep things straight and plumb. Also use at least three noggins in the first bay out to each side, then two in the next bay, and then down to one for al the others. So instead of being 48" OC (vertically) in the first bay, they will be more like 18" OC, then maybe 24" in the second, etc. Frame the hell out of doorways and windows!.

Quote:
If (for example) I lose 5dB of isolation by using a singe door - does that mean I'll lose 10dB if i use (2)?
You'll lose a LOT more than 5 dB by having only a single door! Your isolation is limited by mass law:

TL = 14.5 log Ms + 23 dB (where: Ms = Surface Mass in lb/ft2 )

Do the math: I think you won't like what you see. You need ginormous amounts of mass to get decent isolation. You seem to be aiming for about 50 dB isolation with your walls, so turn the mass-law equation around and see how much mass you need on your door to reach 50 dB... :) :wink:

Quote:
I COULD use a 2-door system between the control room and the live room (Its actually not too late to do that), but I don't know how much that would help my overall isolation
IT would do wonders for the isolation between CR and LR, for sure! Your "single-door" dilemma is only between the CR and the outside world, and has no real effect on the isolation of the LR.

Quote:
This is so counterintuitive to me that I'm trying to find a better way. With the MLV, I'm hoping to have the continuous mass, while also decoupling the walls.
I would not use MLV for that: it's too heavy and not flexible enough for good isolation, plus it's a bitch to work with: tears easily, hard to seal, etc. I would suggest Sobrbothane sheet, but that's going to be REAL expensive!


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:37 am 
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Location: Baldwin, NY USA
Stuart! :yahoo: Hey!

Quote:
Any chance you could fit two half-doors in there, that meet in the middle, for the second door?


Do you mean something like a french door?
Attachment:
narrow-french-doors-amazing-narrow-french-doors-dining-chairs-ideas-inside-narrow-exterior-french-doors-narrow-french-doors-with-transom.jpg


Quote:
IT would do wonders for the isolation between CR and LR, for sure! Your "single-door" dilemma is only between the CR and the outside world, and has no real effect on the isolation of the LR.


Its mainly isolation to the outside world (sister lives upstairs) that is my main concern. I really am mostly tracking vocals, so losing a bit of isolation between live room and controls is not too much of a concern. I do have drums in there, but rarely if ever record them, just there because my band comes over to jam in that room.
I wouldn't mind having 2 doors at the bottom of the stairs if I could fit it. I'll do some measurement and sketchuping to see if this french door thing fits at the bottom of the stairs. Great suggestion Stuart!

Quote:
Also, I normally have at least three studs on each side of a door frame: Those doors are HEAVY! You need lots of good, rigid support at the back, to keep things straight and plumb. Also use at least three noggins in the first bay out to each side, then two in the next bay, and then down to one for al the others. So instead of being 48" OC (vertically) in the first bay, they will be more like 18" OC, then maybe 24" in the second, etc. Frame the hell out of doorways and windows!.


Gotcha! thanks I was unaware about the extra noggins, thank you!!

Quote:
I would suggest Sobrbothane sheet, but that's going to be REAL expensive!


I'll look into pricing up Sorbothane - although I don't actually need a lot of it - I guess it sort of depends on how its sold (sheets/rolls?) I'm assuming they don't sell it in 3" wide strips lol.

I


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 359
Location: California USA
Well you got a response from the man, so I'm gonna leave that right there.. :lol:

That is a vexing situation though. I feel for ya.... :-?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:14 am 
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Posts: 11929
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
Stuart! :yahoo: Hey!
It's been a while! Glad to see you back again!! :thu:

Quote:
Do you mean something like a french door?
That's the general idea, yes.

Quote:
I really am mostly tracking vocals, so losing a bit of isolation between live room and controls is not too much of a concern.
Not worried about sound from the speakers in the CR getting into the LR mics? :)

Quote:
I wouldn't mind having 2 doors at the bottom of the stairs if I could fit it. I'll do some measurement and sketchuping to see if this french door thing fits at the bottom of the stairs. Great suggestion Stuart!
:thu: That's what you are paying so much for! Cool ideas like this... :)

Quote:
I'll look into pricing up Sorbothane - although I don't actually need a lot of it - I guess it sort of depends on how its sold (sheets/rolls?) I'm assuming they don't sell it in 3" wide strips lol.
They sell it in sheets, up to 24" by 24" IIRC, but you can certainly cut it into strips with a sharp knife. But do be prepared for "sticker shock".

- Stuart -

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