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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:15 am 
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This is a very general idea of the overall layout. It's based on some of the things discussed earlier in the thread. The new room pic is shown in the previous post. Of course the studio itself will have an inner frame due to all the noise I can't escape from out here in the quiet countryside (trucks, planes, guns, animals).

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And this is a sort of "as-built" showing the way the studio is today, with notes on what I plan to do. It's a lot of work but I think it will greatly improve the ergonomics of the room and make treatment easier.

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So I have a ways to go before I start the meat of the studio build. Part of this includes cutting down the 16x7 garage door to 12x7 and adding a small access door.

My immediate concern is that I want to finish up the equipment room and get some HVAC/ventilation going in both rooms. More to come I hope...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:14 am 
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A few more updates:

This was a good opportunity to get some building experience. I've done some of these things, but never framed and walled a room. The biggest challenge with the framing was keeping everything plumb and level. This becomes especially difficult when you realize the existing walls (and floor) are not that way to begin with! So then it's a matter of getting things as close as possible. But you come to realize that little errors get magnified. If a stud isn't quite plumb, the drywall won't line up on it properly and your screws will miss it. Then the next sheet of drywall becomes a problem. On and on. A lot of people know this stuff already but a lot may not. This room doesn't need to be airtight or soundproof -- but the next one will.

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From outside, insulation almost done.

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From the garage, finally a place to hang ladders! By the way I'm still debating on whether to try and finish the drywall myself of pay someone else. I've attempted it several times in the past and the results were always less than stellar. I may just pass it on this time (and in the big room too)!

Image


Last edited by ZSXI on Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:43 am 
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A word on electrical -- since this is a small room I dedicated one 20A circuit to the outlets and lights. But there will be an additional outlet sharing the same circuit as the Studio (which may also be a single 20A circuit sans lights). That way my PC, converters, mic pres etc will all be on the same circuit, hopefully minimizing ground loops. Electrically it will be as though any studio gear in Equipment Room is in the Studio -- while any other stuff, like the refrigerator, will be on a separate circuit.

I made another executive decision on the floor plan. After speaking to a concrete guy about some flatwork we need done around the building, I realized the lay of the land is such that, any new exterior door could lead to issues with water coming in under the door (it rains a lot). So any concrete work will require some grading, and to avoid the water intrusion, we'd have to raise the ground level up to the point that it will require a step down to get into the Studio. I really don't want to mess with that if I can help it so I decided there will be no new exterior doors. I will still be removing the existing door but now I will keep the door in the garage (and it will become a Super Door, or more likely a pair of Super Doors). In other words all the doors will be very close together -- something I wanted to avoid initially due to the proximity of the fuse panel and to keep the two sides of the building separated. But in another way it makes a lot of sense. I'll have to walk through an extra door to get in the building but I will avoid a lot of the exterior issues I tried to describe. And no steps. And better security. This probably made little sense so here's a sketch:

Image

I still plan to remove the two windows along that bottom (north) wall. There will still be a single window at each end of the Studio.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:57 am 
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As a side note to my post from several weeks ago -- I'm still working out the HVAC/ventilation details. I'm likely going with a split ducted heat pump that will just be a standard installation for now and get retrofitted for silence during the Studio build. I'm just not sure how to go about doing that without having to tear things up in the future. For example I can use regular ducts for now and then build in the baffles later but I'm not sure where the ideal placement would be (holes in wall). There's also the matter of passing the various tubes & pipes through the exterior wall in such a way as to not become concerned with flanking noise down the road. I need to resolve this soon.

Meanwhile, I'm finishing up the drywall on the interior (those other pics were from last week). The panel lift (Harbor Freight) is absolutely necessary to make this a one person job. As you can probably see I still struggle with getting minimal gaps and working around outlet boxes. I hope the drywall finishing guys can deal...

I expect the air handler unit will go in that far right corner, with the pump unit much further down the exterior wall (as far away as possible). I stubbed out a pair of 8AWG 3 conductor cables for that purpose -- they should be sufficient for two 40A circuits which I hope is more than enough.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:08 am 
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Finally for now, here's an updated "as-built" like the one I did before. It's really more of a "to-do" drawing.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:33 am 
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Another update as another year goes flying by. We have concrete! And fence posts! Great news but not exactly on topic. Well, sort of.

Here you can see the original entrance to the studio. To get the grade right, the ground here is now about 10 inches higher than it was. That would have necessitated a step down -- something I did not want to deal with. It would have been the same issue if I put a new door in around the corner (as previously planned).

I'm working on removing this piece of siding so I can frame the hole and seal up the outer leaf.

Image

Here's the inside. Thankfully it was not big deal for the contractors to fill in that stem wall while they were at it. I was a bit stressed about how watertight this would be in a situation where driving rain hits the side of the building and rolls down. Given that it's a single piece of concrete (rather than a separate pad and wall with a seam in between), it should be fine. Still I'm hoping to get some good rain before I start building the inner shell. It's drought season at the moment.

Just in case, I had them pin the edges of the new wall with rebar. The conduit runs under the driveway and sidewalk to the house -- it will contain CAT5 or fiber so I won't have to rely on wifi from the main house.

I wasn't able to get satisfying answers on the HVAC so I am just going without at the moment (July was one of the hottest on record here). I even had someone out to get a quote and they never actually sent me one.

As I wrap up the loose ends outside (there are so many!) and work on removing drywall from the outer leaf, I hope to get down to business this fall and start the studio design for real.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:31 am 
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Still slogging my way through this. My time is continually split by working as an unpaid general contractor (for the wife), part time landscaping (at home) and that job that actually pays the bills.

Question on the topic of adding mass to the outer leaf: Currently the electrical panel is sitting in the studio room, in between two joists. As I described earlier in the thread, I haven't had much luck getting an electrician to sign up for moving the panel at a reasonable cost. Additionally, professional services around these parts are really hard to come by due to the latest housing boom (not to mention quality work, not to mention anyone who has ever done anything pro audio related).

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So again, I'm planning on keeping the panel in place. I did speak to the county about whether there were restrictions on putting a door in front of the panel (on the inner leaf wall) and was told that this is not a problem as long as it is big enough to provide plenty of access. So I figure the cost of small "superdoor" will probably be less than the $2000 or so the last contractor wanted to move the panel.

In any case, for some reason, I think the siding was damaged when this service was originally installed. There is a hole in the wall and it's covered by a patch of siding on the outside.

Image

So, what I'm wondering is, since it will be impossible to add mass to this section of the wall from the inside due to the panel and all the wiring -- what if I just removed this small piece of siding and added a bigger piece that covers the gap between studs and runs from top to bottom? The density of the siding (I would either use 5/8" plywood or Hardi-concrete panel) is about the same density as fire rated drywall -- so the mass would be about the the same. Just on the outside. Here's a rough sketch. Yes it would not be as aesthetically pleasing from the outside but it would be better protected from the elements than the patch that is already there -- due to the top being protected from rain by the roof overhang. Any thoughts?

Here's a rough sketch (viewed from above) of what I'm talking about. I could use acoustic calk around the perimeter and along the edges to get a good seal.
Image


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:33 am 
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PS - Stuart @Soundman2020 check your inbox... 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Thought I'd throw out a quick update here. I'm quite stuck on this concept of "beefing up" the outer leaf w/o setting myself up for moisture problems in the future. I've looked at a few threads but haven't found a great deal of detail oriented solutions. I do have Rod's book and his example on filling stud bays with drywall is the basis for what I'm trying to do.

Rather than rehash this my whole thread up to this point, I started up one on Gearslutz and PMed a few folks there for input. Lately I've had a marginally better chance of getting some input there than here. I guess this is what happens when everyone wants to build a studio at once. It's all folks asking and few answering. In any case, here's the thread as background: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/1237738-another-look-beefing-up-outer-leaf.html

If anyone can point me to some relevant threads on this please do. And, once again, a shoutout into the void for Soundman2020. You've gone completely off the grid for some reason, though I see you still post on a fairly regular basis. Was it something I said?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:22 pm 
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So, what I'm wondering is, since it will be impossible to add mass to this section of the wall from the inside due to the panel and all the wiring -- what if I just removed this small piece of siding and added a bigger piece that covers the gap between studs and runs from top to bottom? The density of the siding (I would either use 5/8" plywood or Hardi-concrete panel) is about the same density as fire rated drywall
Sounds like a good plan to me. The fiber-cement board is probably about double the density of drywall or plywood, so that's great. As long as you seal it well, that will work.

You could even build out the rest of the wall to the same level with thinner fiber-cement board, laid flat on the wall, then add new siding over all of it, to get it looking neat. That would help for your isolation, too.

Quote:
I guess this is what happens when everyone wants to build a studio at once. It's all folks asking and few answering.
:thu: So true! :(

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You've gone completely off the grid for some reason, though I see you still post on a fairly regular basis. Was it something I said?
Not at all! I messed up my PM settings, and hadn't gotten anything for a while... :oops: Sorry about that!

OK beefing up: The procedure is fairly simple: you just cut panels of some type of "mass", often drywall, to fit in between the studs of your outer-leaf, caulk around the edges, then hold them in place with cleats, nailed sideways into the studs. On your GS thread I saw you are concerned about moisture, and that's a valid concern. One option would be to use Green Glue between your existing outer-leaf and your beef-up panels. That would seal them joint fully air tight so no moisture would be able to get in, thus no condensation, and would also have acoustic benefits. Of course, it ain't cheap!

But I really can't see you having a problem, assuming that your garage is built properly, with a breathable moisture barrier on the outside (eg, Tyvek), and proper attention to water flow. The caulk seals the edges of the beef-up panels in place, and the cleats keep them held up tight against the existing leaf, so I don't see much opportunity for moisture to form in between. As long as you do your vapor barrier as required by local code, you should be fine.


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:24 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
Sounds like a good plan to me. The fiber-cement board is probably about double the density of drywall or plywood, so that's great. As long as you seal it well, that will work.

You could even build out the rest of the wall to the same level with thinner fiber-cement board, laid flat on the wall, then add new siding over all of it, to get it looking neat. That would help for your isolation, too.


That's good. It helps solve the issue around the electrical area at least.

I have thought about just cladding the entire studio end of the building in a layer of siding in order to add mass, rather than working from inside. It's one of the options described in the GS thread. However, since there is no wrap or barrier on the building now, I would probably want to put Tyvek or something over the existing siding & then another layer of siding. But if I do that, sealing any air gaps between layers will be difficult because it will require sealant on both sides of the wrap (which would negate effectiveness of the wrap). So I could end up with a situation where noise gets in from the top & bottom:

Image

In any case, I would still caulk all the stud bays and sill plates from inside -- so it will be airtight. I just don't know if the extra layer of mass on the exterior could be sealed effectively.

The patch over the electrical area technically would suffer from the same problem but on a smaller scale. I will have to see what the inside of the current patch looks like (about 2'x3' as pictured a few posts ago) once removed. It's just nailed & caulked on there.

Quote:
OK beefing up: The procedure is fairly simple: you just cut panels of some type of "mass", often drywall, to fit in between the studs of your outer-leaf, caulk around the edges, then hold them in place with cleats, nailed sideways into the studs. On your GS thread I saw you are concerned about moisture, and that's a valid concern. One option would be to use Green Glue between your existing outer-leaf and your beef-up panels. That would seal them joint fully air tight so no moisture would be able to get in, thus no condensation, and would also have acoustic benefits. Of course, it ain't cheap!

But I really can't see you having a problem, assuming that your garage is built properly, with a breathable moisture barrier on the outside (eg, Tyvek), and proper attention to water flow. The caulk seals the edges of the beef-up panels in place, and the cleats keep them held up tight against the existing leaf, so I don't see much opportunity for moisture to form in between. As long as you do your vapor barrier as required by local code, you should be fine.


I have the example from Rod's book, which makes perfect sense for an interior wall. But as mentioned in the GS thread, there is no barrier on the building currently. Just a single layer of siding, nothing else (other than the insulation and drywall which I am removing). This is probably code for this area since the building was built as a detached garage, not a living space.

The green glue sounds like a possibility. I assume the idea would be to eliminate any voids between layers? I'm not 100% sure but I think if the interior is warm and the exterior is cold, there would still be condensation potentially - on the interior face of the drywall, which would be touching the insulation. A GS user from Europe suggested it was common practice there to include a layer of foil placed between siding and drywall as a moisture barrier but gave no specifics. I would assume plastic could work there as well, or even Tyvek. But I really don't know -- and it would complicate the process of sealing the edges.

In the GS thread, I referenced another thread where someone had applied the beef-up with disastrous results. His OSB mass layers got wet & disintegrated inside the wall, weakening the siding and causing it bow outwards. He had to replace it all! I PMed him for details on how he resolved this but have not heard back.

My understanding is that I "should" be OK given that I apply a suitable vapor barrier at some point -- which would be the inner leaf. I don't have the design for that worked out and it will likely be some time before that gets built. I'm just trying to prepare by getting the outer leaf ready - and the insulation replaced before winter comes.

Just to reiterate, my main concern is not with rain penetration but with vapor condensation -- something that feels a bit like black magic to me. I've read a few articles where it seems like this rarely gets done correctly, even on modern buildings. So I find it easy to overthink. Easier when I consider my outer leaf will be permanently inaccessible once finished.

I'd love find someone local to consult with about this (purely the construction aspects, not the soundproofing). But siding, roofing & HVAC guys tend to work within the tight constraints of conventional construction. I want someone who really knows what they're talking about, not a best guess, which I have no shortage of myself. I'm not sure what other tradesperson I could ask about this.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:15 am 
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OK, time for some updates. And another shout out to Stuart. It's getting pretty frustrating. Even a reply saying you are really really really busy right now but will have time in *** to continue working with me would be a start. The last time we had a two person discussion about this it was MARCH. The best face I can put on this is that my emails are going to spam or your PMs are still broken but it's getting harder to believe that.

So... I've been pushing ahead, working on the outer shell & trying to simplify by removing some windows.

Here is one of the side windows with trim removed. I also built the lean-to shed in my "spare" time.
Image

Window out. All I had to do, framing wise, was add a couple 2x4s in line with the existing studs. I used pocket screws for better strength. In framing overall I prefer to use nails but when space is tight or the only way to fasten is with toe nailing, I prefer pocket screws. I never got the hang of toe nailing.
Image

Removing this kind of siding can be tricky because it overlaps in 4' sheets. So it's hard not to remove one piece without destroying another. Plus you may end up removing 2 whole sheets when you only needed, maybe 4'. I got around this by cutting the siding about an 1/2" away from the grooves. Then I chipped the top layer of siding away and smoothed it out. This allows a custom piece of siding to lay over the gap, kind of like a hat. This way, you can make any size hole (8 inches at a time -- that's the distance between grooves). This was a bit of a pain but it wasn't all that bad compared to possibly removing way more siding than I needed to.

Here's an example of the existing siding. I did this on both sides. Normally I would have gone to the top but in this case, I had to work with the ledger board so I had cut the siding up there before putting the ledger board up.
Image

Here is the new siding. I used a router to make the lip about 1" on both sides. Again I think of it like a hat that lays over the old siding.
Image

The overlap gets caulked and of course I will be caulking all this from the inside as well. The only other tricky part was getting the nails to go through studs. I don't know how siding people do this all day every day. Even after placing lines on the siding to tell me where the studs were, I still missed some.

At this point I have removed two windows and a door from the room. Here you can see the old door is gone (down at the end). I shortened the garage door by 4 feet, then framed and added a new door next to it. This will be the only entrance to the building other than the lift door. The studio shell begins about halfway between the door and that patch of siding.
Image

I guess it's been a really productive year. Though it still feels like I will never actually make music in here.

For those keeping up, I mentioned a few posts back that I wasn't sure what to do about the electrical panel (which is right near that patch of siding). I'm thinking I may have a way to move it to the outside of the studio, which would be great! The alternative was to build a narrow "super door" on the inner shell, just for access. While this can be done to code, it will be expensive and make it more difficult to treat the room. I also have about 6 holes in the frame where romex is passing through to the garage. Plus the ground wire is leaving a big air gap in the siding. It would be best if I could remove most of that and seal the holes. Though I plan to do most of the wiring it will still require an electrician to move the panel and reconnect the mains and ground. Electricians don't come cheap in this area. Or even come, half the time. More on this soon, I hope.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:35 am 
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The last post was basically how I spent my summer and fall. Now I am finally working on the beef-up of the exterior. In my earlier post I was experiencing a lot of doubt about using drywall without sheathing or wrap. I had referenced a Gearslutz thread in which someone used several layers of OSB in their wall, only to have it rot a few years later. I never got more detail from him, which was unsettling. After a lot of reading & sending emails to the likes of Owens-Corning and Tyvek (which didn't help much), I finally came across a post by Rod explaining how vapor & condensation works in this context -- I feel pretty confident that it will be OK. Once the siding is caulked from the inside there should be no water intrusion. I found some gaps by the sill plate (near that ground wire I mentioned previously) and the siding was a little dark around there -- not from water but from moisture I'm sure. I've since nailed the siding down better and caulked it well. I still need to figure out what to do with the ground wire.

The point being that I think once everything is sealed and there is insulation up, then an air gap, then another wall with insulation AND a vapor barrier, there should be a really good sized thermal break between the warm side and the cold side. Plus, as I understand it, drywall and plywood are pretty good at passing any vapor that should present itself, rather than trapping it. I hope I'm right.

So here is a pic of the beef-up, in progress.
Image

One thing that troubles me is the use of cleats. I've been reusing the old drywall and, so far, due to pieces not being perfectly square & straight, I end up with gaps around the drywall between 1/8" and 1/2". I have a variety of backer rod sizes so that shouldn't be a problem. I'm using liberal amounts of SC-175 to caulk the edges.

I've been using scrap blocks of 1x wood (AFTER the caulk) to keep the drywall tight against the wall. But I'm not using full length pieces that cover all edges. I'm confident the drywall is secure but I'm thinking there isn't much mass around the perimeter. It's just a thin layer of caulk.

Is this a valid concern? Or is the point really to stiffen the wall to limit flexing and also make it completely airtight?

Any suggestions on this would be appreciated. I'm planning on doing more of this today. If it is wise to cover the perimeter with cleats, it would stand to reason that (yet) another round of caulking would be needed as well -- to bond the mass of the cleats to the mass of the drywall. This seems like overkill to me & Rod never went to that level of detail. It's really easy to overthink this because I've learned rule #1 with soundproofing is that what sounds like a good idea may be a bad idea -- and things that seem unimportant can be crucial.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:52 am 
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The last post was basically how I spent my summer and fall. Now I am finally working on the beef-up of the exterior.

Good work!

Quote:
I've been using scrap blocks of 1x wood (AFTER the caulk) to keep the drywall tight against the wall. But I'm not using full length pieces that cover all edges. I'm confident the drywall is secure but I'm thinking there isn't much mass around the perimeter. It's just a thin layer of caulk.

Typically, I think people put up cleats to press the drywall firmly against the material behind it. Then they will caulk the entire perimeter excluding the cleat areas. Then, after the caulk cures, they move the cleats to an already caulked area and then apply caulk to the areas the cleats originally were. This ensures that the drywall is pressed firmly against the other material.

Also, regarding your comment about "just a thin layer of caulk" -- caulk has ~ twice the surface density that drywall has. This means that if you are using 1/2" drywall, you need to do your best to ensure you've applied at least 1/4" bead of caulk. Using backer rod to fill the first half of the void depth will then allow you to fill the rest with caulk and maintain your surface density. Personally, unless the gap is quite large, I avoid using backer rod because it is expensive and takes a very long time and a lot of effort to install.

Greg

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Thanks for the reply. So if what you're saying is true, I should be OK. It stands to reason because, if the cleats were meant to add mass, they really would have to cover 100% of the perimeter and probably be caulked as well.

So far, I've found that once I get the rod installed, the drywall stays in place by itself. I can caulk the whole thing & work it in, then just press the cleats in tight and nail them in. I put a temporary shim on the bottom and then rod/caulk that the next day.

I think what I need to do is just lay the caulk on really thick so I can get that bead (I'm using 5/8" drywall so 1/4"+ at least). I had a few gaps that were too big for 1/2" rod, so I used 5/8" It made the rod stick out more than normal, which made the bead thinner. I went back and laid another bead over the top so hopefully I'm good.

I've always understood the rod serves two purposes. One, to allow the caulk bead to take on an hourglass shape so that it holds up longer with minimal shrinking or cracking. It also keeps you from using too much caulk. I would need about 2x the amount of caulk if I didn't use rod. So I'd have a bit more mass but more risk of cracking due to the frame expanding and contracting.

I can get 350' of 3/8" rod at my local big box for $27. That's $.08 per foot.
I can get a 12 pack of SC-175 for $78, or $6.50 per tube. I can make a tube last roughly 1.5 stud bays, or about 25'. $.26 per foot. It would be closer to $.50 per foot if I didn't use rod. That's how it works out for me at least.


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