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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:57 am 
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That sort of begs the question: Why would you need / want 16" between leaves? :shock: That sounds like you are wasting 12" that could have been on the OTHER side of the leaf, inside the room.... I'm trying to imagine a situation where you would need to leave 16" between leaves....


I'll have 16" between my subfloor above and my inside out ceiling modules. Over 600 ft2 means it's going to cost me a small fortune to buy the insulation. Jan 2nd prices go up another 8% so I better buy a butt load before then!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:16 am 
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Ahhhh! That makes sense. I was think we were talking about walls, not ceilings...

So your joists are 16"... Hmmmm... tough call....

The main purpose of the insulation n the cavity is to damp all of the many resonances going on inside there, not just the MSM resonance. There are other things going on too, such as standing waves forming down the length of the cavity and across the cavity. It would be good to have damping on all of that.

Another issue is that the insulation slows down the speed of sound (or stated better "sound travels slower in insulation than it does in free air"...), so putting in lots of insulation makes the cavity appear "bigger" to the sound waves, thus lowering your MSM frequency... but with 16", it's already pretty low!

And one more issue is that the insulation changes the way air deals with heat from adiabatic to isothermal, which you could say is more effective...

While on the other hand, 16" is a whole load of space to fill with insulation! :shock: Perhaps a reasonable compromise is to have something like 4" at the top of the cavity (up against the subfloor above you), a similar amount resting on your inside-out ceiling, and occasional "chunks" distributed around the rest of the cavity. In other words, something like a piece of 4" 703 standing up vertically on edge across the joist bay, covering the rest of the 16" between the joists, every few feet along each joist bay. I don't have any research to base that on, nor equations to tell you how well it would work, or how far apart you could space those: It's just a reasonable assumption, as it would damp the other resonances reasonably well...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:45 am 
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Perhaps a reasonable compromise is to have something like 4" at the top of the cavity (up against the subfloor above you), a similar amount resting on your inside-out ceiling, and occasional "chunks" distributed around the rest of the cavity. In other words, something like a piece of 4" 703 standing up vertically on edge across the joist bay, covering the rest of the 16" between the joists, every few feet along each joist bay. I don't have any research to base that on, nor equations to tell you how well it would work, or how far apart you could space those: It's just a reasonable assumption, as it would damp the other resonances reasonably well...

That could save a lot of money but would complicate the build. Trying to get the insulation anchored to the subfloor would be time consuming.

This picture shows the great benefits of insulation in the cavity!
Attachment:
MSM TL with and wo insulation.png


Greg


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:51 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
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if I have a 16" air gap between leaves,
That sort of begs the question: Why would you need / want 16" between leaves? :shock: That sounds like you are wasting 12" that could have been on the OTHER side of the leaf, inside the room.... I'm trying to imagine a situation where you would need to leave 16" between leaves....
- Stuart -


...see Greg's reply below. :D

..haha, precisely why I was asking about different air depths in between leaves, considering the depth of my ceiling joists vs. the depth that I'm going to need for my walls, which are hopefully NOT 16"! :shock: ...sounds like a new California pollution campaign; Proposition NOT 16!!! I digress.


Gregwor wrote:
I'll have 16" between my subfloor above and my inside out ceiling modules. Over 600 ft2 means it's going to cost me a small fortune to buy the insulation. Jan 2nd prices go up another 8% so I better buy a butt load before then!
Greg



Soundman2020 wrote:
Ahhhh! That makes sense. I was think we were talking about walls, not ceilings...

So your joists are 16"... Hmmmm... tough call....

The main purpose of the insulation n the cavity is to damp all of the many resonances going on inside there, not just the MSM resonance. There are other things going on too, such as standing waves forming down the length of the cavity and across the cavity. It would be good to have damping on all of that.

Another issue is that the insulation slows down the speed of sound (or stated better "sound travels slower in insulation than it does in free air"...), so putting in lots of insulation makes the cavity appear "bigger" to the sound waves, thus lowering your MSM frequency... but with 16", it's already pretty low!

And one more issue is that the insulation changes the way air deals with heat from adiabatic to isothermal, which you could say is more effective...

While on the other hand, 16" is a whole load of space to fill with insulation! :shock: Perhaps a reasonable compromise is to have something like 4" at the top of the cavity (up against the subfloor above you), a similar amount resting on your inside-out ceiling, and occasional "chunks" distributed around the rest of the cavity. In other words, something like a piece of 4" 703 standing up vertically on edge across the joist bay, covering the rest of the 16" between the joists, every few feet along each joist bay. I don't have any research to base that on, nor equations to tell you how well it would work, or how far apart you could space those: It's just a reasonable assumption, as it would damp the other resonances reasonably well...

- Stuart -


Insulation. Yay.

It's funny, every time that I start feeling like I'm making progress, the weight of every small decision I make seems to make me feel like an immensely top heavy drunk.

:shot:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:03 am 
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shows the great benefits of insulation in the cavity!
Yup! :thu: Sometimes people don't realize how important it is, or what it is really doing. The overall difference in isolation for a typical wall can be as much as 16 dB, when comparing "empty cavity" with "full cavity fill". It's the single biggest thing you can do to a wall to get a major difference in isolation. Adding an extra layer of drywall will get you a few dB, increasing the cavity depth will get you a few dB, increasing the stud spacing will get you a couple of dB... but putting insulation in there will get you at least ten dB, and maybe 16 dB (or more, under some circumstances).

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It's funny, every time that I start feeling like I'm making progress, the weight of every small decision I make seems to make me feel like an immensely top heavy drunk.
Isn't acoustic design FUN! It's amazing then things you learn.... Now everybody knows that if you want to feel like an immensely top heavy drunk, all you have to do is to try to design a studio! :) :shot:

On a more serious note: it's a huge subject, and there's always more stuff to learn. It's a moving target, too: just when you think you are getting a good handle on things, some darn scientist goes and publishes a new research paper, or writes a new book!

Sigh....

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Isn't acoustic design FUN! It's amazing then things you learn.... Now everybody knows that if you want to feel like an immensely top heavy drunk, all you have to do is to try to design a studio! :) :shot:


Yep! I feel you pain man! I've been in the planning stage for a few years now and still am trying to make sense of it all. I've even done worst where I've actually framed some walls and started putting things together all to realize that I was doing it all wrong. Thanks to Stuart I've gotten a reality check with everything and especially with my HVAC design. He isn't lying when he says it's the #1 thing that most people don't do right in the first place. It's a lot of math and a lot of figuring out but staying alive in the studio is probably important right? haha

Don't give up man...you're on your way to a great build! :) I'm still figuring out my own HVAC design and hoping to find more answers to finalize my plan.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:23 am 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
Quote:
shows the great benefits of insulation in the cavity!
Yup! :thu: Sometimes people don't realize how important it is, or what it is really doing. The overall difference in isolation for a typical wall can be as much as 16 dB, when comparing "empty cavity" with "full cavity fill". It's the single biggest thing you can do to a wall to get a major difference in isolation. Adding an extra layer of drywall will get you a few dB, increasing the cavity depth will get you a few dB, increasing the stud spacing will get you a couple of dB... but putting insulation in there will get you at least ten dB, and maybe 16 dB (or more, under some circumstances).


Fill every square inch of the MSM air cavity with fiberglass insulation, got it! That's great information. 16dB+/-, wow.
This concept seems similar to filling a glass bottle with sand; no more resonance (well, little).


Quote:
Quote:
It's funny, every time that I start feeling like I'm making progress, the weight of every small decision I make seems to make me feel like an immensely top heavy drunk.
Isn't acoustic design FUN! It's amazing then things you learn.... Now everybody knows that if you want to feel like an immensely top heavy drunk, all you have to do is to try to design a studio! :) :shot:

On a more serious note: it's a huge subject, and there's always more stuff to learn. It's a moving target, too: just when you think you are getting a good handle on things, some darn scientist goes and publishes a new research paper, or writes a new book!

Sigh....

- Stuart -


Absolutely, Stuart. I've been studying acoustics (on the sidelines) for years, and I've said it before, and will say it again, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know, and as you pointed out, that also goes for the 'experts' who create these very standards we so intently rely upon, among other things, obviously, as well.
To be completely, honest, the satisfaction that I get each time I finish a task, or have one of those acoustic lightbulb moments, make all the trouble and frustration worthwhile; in the end (if I don't die first, haha), I'll be able to work full-time from my home studio, in peace and solitude, without having to pay studio fees, drive through Chicago traffic, or waste time doing setups/tear downs each day and night, among the other one million benefits of working for oneself at home.


Studio45 wrote:
Yep! I feel you pain man! I've been in the planning stage for a few years now and still am trying to make sense of it all. I've even done worst where I've actually framed some walls and started putting things together all to realize that I was doing it all wrong. Thanks to Stuart I've gotten a reality check with everything and especially with my HVAC design. He isn't lying when he says it's the #1 thing that most people don't do right in the first place. It's a lot of math and a lot of figuring out but staying alive in the studio is probably important right? haha

Don't give up man...you're on your way to a great build! :) I'm still figuring out my own HVAC design and hoping to find more answers to finalize my plan.

Cheers!


Thanks 45, sympathy is clearly the acoustician's most shared emotion, hahaha! :D

...there's been so many before me and will be so many after, who begin building their dream palace only for their plans to wither up and fold, usually quickly. That's how difficult this field is. It's not for the poor, it's not for the weekend warrior, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. Over the years, how many posts have you read here at John Sayers, looking for answers, only to find that the thread just suddenly died? For me, a whole sh*tload, thus why I needed to start my own thread (admittedly prematurely, but if Stuart and Greg aren't pissed, then hey, I'm glad I did) because I will not give up or be defeated, until the very moment that I am making a comfortable living doing audio work, and audio work only, from my own, personal, home recording studio!

I'm very happy to have finally gathered my bearings on this build, though, I will undoubtedly have more struggles/questions in the very near future, obviously. I say bring it on.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:03 am 
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Amen brother...AMEN!! lol


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:30 am 
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...there's been so many before me and will be so many after, who begin building their dream palace only for their plans to wither up and fold, usually quickly. That's how difficult this field is. It's not for the poor, it's not for the weekend warrior, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. Over the years, how many posts have you read here at John Sayers, looking for answers, only to find that the thread just suddenly died? For me, a whole sh*tload, thus why I needed to start my own thread (admittedly prematurely, but if Stuart and Greg aren't pissed, then hey, I'm glad I did) because I will not give up or be defeated, until the very moment that I am making a comfortable living doing audio work, and audio work only, from my own, personal, home recording studio!

The percentage of dried up threads is staggering. I'm in the middle of my second studio build and today the doctor ordered me to get hand x-rays and a bunch of other crap. It is depressing as my screwed up hands will slow me down. But my build has too much riding on it and like you, I'm determined to finish it even if it takes me countless years. I too am sick of renting places that aren't set up well. With the help of everyone on the forum, I'm confident we can all have amazing studios. Guys like you push me to learn more and work harder on my place. And even if we get 1 hour of work done on our places each week, we are headed in the right direction. Thank you guys for pushing the rest of us!

Greg

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Sorry to hear about your hands, Greg. That sucks! Just when you were really getting into things, too. I sure do hope you recover quickly!

Have you thought about building with your feet? :shot: (OK, I'll see myself to the door.... bye now... )

But more seriously, maybe you could hire someone to do the work for you, while you just supervise? Or get musician friends in to help you for free, in exchange for future free recording/mixing/mastering?

The most important thing is to heed your doctor's advice! Take a break long enough that your hands can recover, then take it easy when you pick up with the building again! I had carpal tunnel issues a few years back, and learned to slow down enough that I don't bring it back again... Jus' sayin'! We do want to see your place complete, and not just another dried-up thread!


- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:34 am 
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Sorry to see your struggling Greg. It reminds me to be grateful that my health has held up so well during my build......


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:41 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
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The percentage of dried up threads is staggering. I'm in the middle of my second studio build and today the doctor ordered me to get hand x-rays and a bunch of other crap. It is depressing as my screwed up hands will slow me down. But my build has too much riding on it and like you, I'm determined to finish it even if it takes me countless years. I too am sick of renting places that aren't set up well. With the help of everyone on the forum, I'm confident we can all have amazing studios. Guys like you push me to learn more and work harder on my place. And even if we get 1 hour of work done on our places each week, we are headed in the right direction. Thank you guys for pushing the rest of us!

Greg


Damn, Greg, sorry to hear that, I hope that you can find a treatment to give you some relief. What a shame. :(

...with the bad news aside, however, I'd like to thank you for the compliment, as I really enjoy hearing positive ways in which my determination motivates those around me, and I feel the same about you, being part of my 'motivational' equation as well, because without your knowledge and willingness to guide me along my build, it'd simply be sh*t in the end.

Long live this thread, and good health to all of you in 2019!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:47 pm 
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Gregwor wrote:
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...there's been so many before me and will be so many after, who begin building their dream palace only for their plans to wither up and fold, usually quickly. That's how difficult this field is. It's not for the poor, it's not for the weekend warrior, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. Over the years, how many posts have you read here at John Sayers, looking for answers, only to find that the thread just suddenly died? For me, a whole sh*tload, thus why I needed to start my own thread (admittedly prematurely, but if Stuart and Greg aren't pissed, then hey, I'm glad I did) because I will not give up or be defeated, until the very moment that I am making a comfortable living doing audio work, and audio work only, from my own, personal, home recording studio!

The percentage of dried up threads is staggering. I'm in the middle of my second studio build and today the doctor ordered me to get hand x-rays and a bunch of other crap. It is depressing as my screwed up hands will slow me down. But my build has too much riding on it and like you, I'm determined to finish it even if it takes me countless years. I too am sick of renting places that aren't set up well. With the help of everyone on the forum, I'm confident we can all have amazing studios. Guys like you push me to learn more and work harder on my place. And even if we get 1 hour of work done on our places each week, we are headed in the right direction. Thank you guys for pushing the rest of us!

Greg


Hey Greg, I too am sorry to hear about the pains in your hands; any kind of diagnosis yet? The reason I ask is that it sounds similar to what I have. For the past year (since deciding to start my build) I've been getting terrible pain in my joints, started in my hands and now is in my knees, elbows, and feet, too. I've had numerous blood tests, x-rays, physio, and occupational health sessions, I'm awaiting my ultrasound. I finally got the chance to see a rheumatologist and even he is not sure what's going on. My gut instinct was rheumatoid arthritis, then I thought it was hemochromatosis, and then I thought it was reactive arthritis and now I have no idea what it is. I have no grip in my hands, it's painful to try and turn a key in a lock, heavy lifting is impossible because my arms just give way. My right wrist has lost 80% of its flex, I cannot bend it back more than about 20% of what I could before. It's a nightmare, so though I do not know exactly how you feel, I can sympathize with you to an extent. Hang in there, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what's causing the problem and that it's only temporary.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:08 am 
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Hey Greg, I too am sorry to hear about the pains in your hands; any kind of diagnosis yet? The reason I ask is that it sounds similar to what I have. For the past year (since deciding to start my build) I've been getting terrible pain in my joints, started in my hands and now is in my knees, elbows, and feet, too. I've had numerous blood tests, x-rays, physio, and occupational health sessions, I'm awaiting my ultrasound. I finally got the chance to see a rheumatologist and even he is not sure what's going on. My gut instinct was rheumatoid arthritis, then I thought it was hemochromatosis, and then I thought it was reactive arthritis and now I have no idea what it is. I have no grip in my hands, it's painful to try and turn a key in a lock, heavy lifting is impossible because my arms just give way. My right wrist has lost 80% of its flex, I cannot bend it back more than about 20% of what I could before. It's a nightmare, so though I do not know exactly how you feel, I can sympathize with you to an extent. Hang in there, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what's causing the problem and that it's only temporary.

Thanks for the thoughts guys!

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but to answer this question, I have a referral to see a rheumatologist as well. I think you're further along in the process than me. Regarding your feet, I'll suggest to wear rigid soled work boots when you're up on the ladder. I had bad feet pain after a long day caulking on the ladder in running shoes.
So far, for pain relief, of course the cure has been wrist braces and rest. I wouldn't be surprised if all of us building our studios go a little bit too hard and injure ourselves.

Hang in there man. I hope you're pain resides and your build continues to go well.

Greg

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:51 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
Hey Greg, I too am sorry to hear about the pains in your hands; any kind of diagnosis yet? The reason I ask is that it sounds similar to what I have. For the past year (since deciding to start my build) I've been getting terrible pain in my joints, started in my hands and now is in my knees, elbows, and feet, too. I've had numerous blood tests, x-rays, physio, and occupational health sessions, I'm awaiting my ultrasound. I finally got the chance to see a rheumatologist and even he is not sure what's going on. My gut instinct was rheumatoid arthritis, then I thought it was hemochromatosis, and then I thought it was reactive arthritis and now I have no idea what it is. I have no grip in my hands, it's painful to try and turn a key in a lock, heavy lifting is impossible because my arms just give way. My right wrist has lost 80% of its flex, I cannot bend it back more than about 20% of what I could before. It's a nightmare, so though I do not know exactly how you feel, I can sympathize with you to an extent. Hang in there, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what's causing the problem and that it's only temporary.

Thanks for the thoughts guys!

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but to answer this question, I have a referral to see a rheumatologist as well. I think you're further along in the process than me. Regarding your feet, I'll suggest to wear rigid soled work boots when you're up on the ladder. I had bad feet pain after a long day caulking on the ladder in running shoes.
So far, for pain relief, of course the cure has been wrist braces and rest. I wouldn't be surprised if all of us building our studios go a little bit too hard and injure ourselves.

Hang in there man. I hope you're pain resides and your build continues to go well.

Greg


Thanks for the thoughts and kind words Greg, I too wish you a speedy recovery and build!

BTW, if you do find out that you have some sort of inflammatory arthritic condition including rheumatoid arthritis then PM me as I have some useful medical advice that can make it almost redundant.


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