John Sayers' Design Forum

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

A World of Experience
Click Here for Information on John's Services
It is currently Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:04 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland, kolobrzeg
Hello guys,

I searched in the forum but I didn't find exactly what I was searching for, so I am going to write my question. I am about to start building a house and I want to turn one of the rooms into a small home recording studio. What is more important for me is to isolate the room as much as possible from the outside noise. And when I say outside, I mean outside the room, including the noise from the house itself (rooms, kitchen, my wife walking in high heels, a baby crying, kids playing, etc). Now, this may sound as just another "floating floor" proyect, but I was wondering, is there something I can do to maximaze the isolation, now that I have the chance to build the room with some specs / characteristics?

I attached a picture of some idea I had. I am obviously not an expert, and I don't even know if the company wich is building will agree to do this, but I wanted to know what an expert in this matter would say. This (maybe crazy) idea is to build the house normaly, but leave the studio floor empty. Then build that floor separetly, so there is no conection between the house concrete floor and the studio floor.

It maybe not the option. So please guys if there is another thread, video, tips that you can tell me about the floor and generally about building a room inside of a room when you are building a house, I will appreciate it, because I don't want to make a mistake that I can regrate later.

Regards!


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
"We like music"
- Raul


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:44 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11926
Location: Santiago, Chile
Hi. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)

What you are proposing is called an "isolated slab" floor, and yes it is possible. That's not quite the right way to do it, but you have the general concept. But you only need that if you want very high isolation, and it is only PART of the solution anyway, even if you do not need high isolation.

Quote:
Now, this may sound as just another "floating floor" proyect,
Actually, it isn't a floating floor! That's different from what you are talking about. A "floating floor" would be if you started out with a concrete slab floor, then put rubber or steel spring isolation mounts on top of it, then poured a SECOND slab over the first one, with insulation or just air in between them, such that the second slab does not touch anything else at all, except for the isolation springs. That would be a true floating floor, but it is VERY expensive to do, and very complicated. You would only need that if you want extremely high isolation, and in general it is NOT needed for home studios, or even for professional studios. Here's why it is not needed: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 .

To get the level of isolation that is typically needed for a home studio, usually what you need to do is to build a "room in a room". That means that you start out with the normal walls and ceiling around the room, but then you build a SECOND set of walls inside the room, just a short distance away from that, and without touching them, with a second ceiling on top of those second walls. This new "inner" room does not touch the original room at all. This is fairly easy to do, and in most cases you do not need to isolate the slab, the way you are talking about. Normally, the slab provides enough isolation. You only need to isolate the slab the way you are talking about, if there is a need for high isolation, or if there is a source of "impact noise" that is getting into the slab, such as from a motor of some type, a drum kit, something dropped on the floor, or something similar.

Quote:
is there something I can do to maximaze the isolation, now that I have the chance to build the room with some specs / characteristics?
Yes. Many things, but it depends on the purpose of the room, your goals, how much isolation you need, and other factors.


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:51 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 941
Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Welcome to the forum fauvent (whatever your real name is)!

Please review the forum rules and fill out the rest of the information requested. The forum is very firm about following the rules. It should only take you about 60 seconds to do this.

Quote:
I searched in the forum but I didn't find exactly what I was searching for

There are literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of threads addressing your exact dilemma. You will probably want to spend the next month reading the forum for a few hours each day. You'll become a wizard pretty quick.

Quote:
I am about to start building a house and I want to turn one of the rooms into a small home recording studio.

I'm in the middle of this scenario myself. I'm turning my entire basement and 2/3rds of my garage into studio spaces. If you are willing to read for a couple of minutes, check out the thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21436

Quote:
Now, this may sound as just another "floating floor" proyect

This leads me to believe that you haven't read the forum very much. The reason I say this is because floating floors are basically frowned upon all over the forum. A bit of reading on here will reveal why. But in short, don't even think about floating your floor unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it correctly AND you need extreme extreme levels of isolation.

Quote:
but I was wondering, is there something I can do to maximaze the isolation, now that I have the chance to build the room with some specs / characteristics?

Yes, of course there is.

Quote:
I don't even know if the company wich is building will agree to do this

You're the boss. Literally, you have the money. So be firm and TELL them what they're going to do for you. In my case, I communicated my needs and they did their best to accommodate. It hasn't been perfect by any means, but it's sure been better than it would have been. Basically, just indicate that you want time to go in and do things yourself throughout the project (like beefing things up or sealing things or in my case, digging in conduit before they pour the basement slab)

Quote:
his (maybe crazy) idea is to build the house normaly, but leave the studio floor empty. Then build that floor separetly, so there is no conection between the house concrete floor and the studio floor.

- You haven't told us where in your house your room will be. It shows you have dirt under your slab which means it's either a ground level house, or a basement.
- Is this a single story home or will you have a floor above you to worry about?
- Typically, people on here want to know how many dB you want to stop from leaving or entering your room. But since it's a fresh build, you can't take measurements. You will have to guess. In order to do that, you need to tell us what your "home recording studio" will be.
- Is is purely a mixing suite? A live tracking room? A foley room? The thing is, it can't be more than one at a time. Again, some light reading on the forum will explain why.
- You haven't told us how big the room will be.

Okay, since you said "home recording studio" I'm going to assume it's an actual recording studio which means you have a control room AND at least 1 tracking room. Tracking vocals or loud instruments is ultimately going to mean that you'll need good (from a home studio perspective) isolation. That means you'll need to build your rooms using the room in a room method. Now, since you're building from scratch, you could have your builder pour each rooms slab on it's own. But, if they won't do that, it's not the end of the world. You will still be able to achieve great isolation.

If possible, push back your build at least 2-4 months. Before they start building, you need to come up with a floor plan with them, then tell them you need 2-4 months to design your studio around the floor plan. I promise, if you don't do this, you'll regret it. You need to take the floor plan and make sure you have room for things like HVAC silencer boxes. Probably a designated air handler and all of it's duct work. Doors to your rooms in the right spots. Figure out exactly where your conduit runs will go so you can dig them in before they pour the slab. Figure out your flooring (hint: concrete is the best. So if you can, get in floor radiant heating and get commercial grade 100% epoxy on it). Where will your studio electrical sub panel go? Etc. etc. Once you get into your SketchUp design, you'll realize there are tons of things you need to address with your builder. It might be as simple as moving a jack post over 4 inches. Or as extreme as having them redesign the house floor plan to make your rooms work.

Another hint: get your studio room ceiling as tall as possible. If you're in a basement, ask if they'll even build it as high as 12 feet. Height will always be needed, I promise.

If you have a floor above you, get them to put two layers of sub floor on the floor above you. Be there when they do it. Seal every joint and put Green Glue compound between the two layers of 3/4" OSB sub floor. I didn't do this and I regret it worse than anything. It will save you from having to beef up the floor from below. A small price to pay to save yourself a headache later.

Also, if you're in the basement, get them to use the thickest rim board they can around the entire perimeter as this is a common weak link in basement studios. Before the put in the frost wall, go and seal every joint inside and out. Also, regarding the frost wall, get them to build it out of wood. This will allow you to easily cut out chunks or modify it with ease. Steel studs are a pain to manipulate. Plus, they're weak.

After you get your design done, be sure to set up meetings with all of the contractors and explain in detail what you need from them and how important your design is. I did this but STILL, several times the contractors ran wiring through joists I said needed to be left free. They also ran water lines in areas I told them to not run anything. The electricians drilled a 3" hole through my garage wall for no reason. I beefed those walls up (you can see in my thread) and they said "oh sorry, we'll just fill that with some spray foam". No. They're turds who half ass their jobs and they don't understand the importance of maintaining mass and seals. Be sure to go over everyone's work with a fine tooth comb.

Lastly, unless you want to fight with sealing up a window or spending large amounts of money on exterior windows (these cannot be normal windows) for your room(s), don't even include them in your build. I don't have windows in my basement for this reason. Saved me money and headache.

That's all I have time for now.

Greg

_________________
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland, kolobrzeg
I am very sorry guys,

I have read all the rules, and I think I am fine, now. I will try to go through all the information I left off in the post.

Quote:
1 You haven't told us where in your house your room will be. It shows you have dirt under your slab which means it's either a ground level house, or a basement.
2 Is this a single story home or will you have a floor above you to worry about?
3 Typically, people on here want to know how many dB you want to stop from leaving or entering your room. But since it's a fresh build, you can't take measurements. You will have to guess. In order to do that, you need to tell us what your "home recording studio" will be.
4 Is is purely a mixing suite? A live tracking room? A foley room? The thing is, it can't be more than one at a time. Again, some light reading on the forum will explain why.
5 You haven't told us how big the room will be.


1 I still do not know where, I can choose from all the rooms I have there. The blue prints have 2 bathrooms and I am planning to remove one and use that space, and some more, for the studio.
2 The house is half 1 floor house and the other half a two floor. Above the rooms (where I want my studio) is going to be a big room. So the studio is going to be downstairs.
3 That will be the place I will be practicly all day and, I haven't said this before but, I have a serious advertion for noise. You can even say is pathological, so I am planning to also use that place to isolate myself from the world. Is more important for me to block the noise from outside of the room than the other way arround. How many? As may as possible.
4 I record and compose every day, from monday to sunday. I try to do it profesionaly but I am more a musician/composer than a mixing/mastering engineer
5 I still don't know it will depend of the "adaptation" I will do to the blue prints... but I guess would be somewhere arround (Depth: 330 cm, Lenght: 200 cm, Height 269 cm) I am very sorry, I don't use inches!

Quote:
To get the level of isolation that is typically needed for a home studio, usually what you need to do is to build a "room in a room".


Actually that is my plan, I just posted about the floor because (I think) I have a better understanding of the "room inside of a room" concept. So my original plan was that "isolated slab" and built the room inside of the room over that slab. The thing is:
1. If that's not the right think to do as you said Stuart, what would be the right thing to do for maximum isolation? (of course in a realistic home studio scenario)
2. If after your adive, we conclude that the isolated slab is the best option, then, "should I fill the gaps? ( I guess that would be go against the purpose because that will connect the two surface) I just don't imagine a house that has an open space to the dirt inside of it, even if it is not accessible. I don't really know. I will try to find information about this concept of "isolated slab" in the forum

Thanks guys


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
"We like music"
- Raul


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:11 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 941
Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
5 I still don't know it will depend of the "adaptation" I will do to the blue prints... but I guess would be somewhere arround (Depth: 330 cm, Lenght: 200 cm, Height 269 cm) I am very sorry, I don't use inches!


This is very very small. You have to realize that when you build the room in that room, you're going to be losing 9cm for your stud, then another 3cm for drywall, then you should have at least a 2.5cm gap between the existing studs and your new room studs. So, that totals ~ 14.5cm per wall. Now, multiply that by two and you have almost 30 cm off of each wall. So now your room will be 300cm deep and 170cm long. For your ceiling, you will probably have to use 14cm deep studs plus leave around 5cm between your ceiling joists and these new joists. So, your ceiling will be 22cm shorter. New height will be 247cm. That doesn't take things like bass trapping into consideration. In even large rooms, you need massive bass traps on all 12 corners to make them sound awesome. And your HVAC silencer boxes will eat up a bunch of space... I mean a BUNCH of space. That's why I recommended trying to get super tall ceilings. The extra height will give you room for HVAC and things like that. So, add all of that plus a desk, speakers, chair, speaker stands and instruments. I honestly don't think you can make a control room let alone a place to track as well in that size of room. ITU-R BS.1116-3 states that you should have least a 20 square meter room for a control room. Yours is 5.1 square meters.

I would recommend trying to make your room the recommended 20m^2. Try drawing up your room in SketchUp Make (you can download older versions with a simple google search) and you will see whether or not your room will work for you.

Greg

_________________
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland, kolobrzeg
Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
5 I still don't know it will depend of the "adaptation" I will do to the blue prints... but I guess would be somewhere arround (Depth: 330 cm, Lenght: 200 cm, Height 269 cm) I am very sorry, I don't use inches!


This is very very small. You have to realize that when you build the room in that room, you're going to be losing 9cm for your stud, then another 3cm for drywall, then you should have at least a 2.5cm gap between the existing studs and your new room studs. So, that totals ~ 14.5cm per wall. Now, multiply that by two and you have almost 30 cm off of each wall. So now your room will be 300cm deep and 170cm long. For your ceiling, you will probably have to use 14cm deep studs plus leave around 5cm between your ceiling joists and these new joists. So, your ceiling will be 22cm shorter. New height will be 247cm. That doesn't take things like bass trapping into consideration. In even large rooms, you need massive bass traps on all 12 corners to make them sound awesome. And your HVAC silencer boxes will eat up a bunch of space... I mean a BUNCH of space. That's why I recommended trying to get super tall ceilings. The extra height will give you room for HVAC and things like that. So, add all of that plus a desk, speakers, chair, speaker stands and instruments. I honestly don't think you can make a control room let alone a place to track as well in that size of room. ITU-R BS.1116-3 states that you should have least a 20 square meter room for a control room. Yours is 5.1 square meters.

I would recommend trying to make your room the recommended 20m^2. Try drawing up your room in SketchUp Make (you can download older versions with a simple google search) and you will see whether or not your room will work for you.

Greg



Thank you Greg,

I appreciate the time you used to answer. I can see I am in a big trouble, basicly because that's the space I have. I was thinking that the celling could be solved by lowering the floor in that specific room. Would a 270 cm ceiling be (after the "room inside of a room) enough?
However I don't think I can do a lot about the lenght and depth. Now, as I said, is not my intention to have a perfect room accusticly, I just want a space for my instruments and to be able to isolate as much as possible from the outside noise.

Anyway thanks for your recomendation Greg. I will think about all you told me, try to sketch in that website and come back here to see what are your impresions!

Thanks again!

_________________
"We like music"
- Raul


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:02 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 941
Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Would a 270 cm ceiling be (after the "room inside of a room) enough?

The problems with your small length width and height dimensions are:
- acoustically it will sound bad
- fitting in equipment and sound treatment may be impossible
- finding space for HVAC silencer boxes may be impossible
- opening your inner leaf door (has to open INTO the room) will eat up a ton more space

There doesn't appear to be an attic space above your room to run your duct work and silencers for the room either.

In my case, I had to figure out and prioritize my studio spaces and then design the living space of my home around the recording spaces. You may have to do the same.

Also, don't use the online SketchUp "free". Download the "make" version that they discontinued. It is a zillion times better. You can download whatever version works with your computer here:

https://help.sketchup.com/en/article/60107

Greg

_________________
It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland, kolobrzeg
Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
Would a 270 cm ceiling be (after the "room inside of a room) enough?

The problems with your small length width and height dimensions are:
- acoustically it will sound bad
- fitting in equipment and sound treatment may be impossible
- finding space for HVAC silencer boxes may be impossible
- opening your inner leaf door (has to open INTO the room) will eat up a ton more space

There doesn't appear to be an attic space above your room to run your duct work and silencers for the room either.

In my case, I had to figure out and prioritize my studio spaces and then design the living space of my home around the recording spaces. You may have to do the same.

Also, don't use the online SketchUp "free". Download the "make" version that they discontinued. It is a zillion times better. You can download whatever version works with your computer here:

https://help.sketchup.com/en/article/60107

Greg


Hello Greg,

Thanks for the answer. I've been thinking on everything you guys told about the situation in my future house. As you can see in the layout there is no space for a 20m2 studio. I've been thinking about just build a separate room outside or just add a room in the side of the house. However I have to talk with the builder, so he can change the project. Also I need to know how much is going to cost because the money I have right now it's enough for only the house.

If I am able to build a separate room, what would be the minimum dimentions for the inner space? You said 20m2. Should it be square or rectangular? Let's say 5m x 4m ? Or it can be 6m x 3m? And what about the roof? how tall should it be?

Regards!

_________________
"We like music"
- Raul


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:33 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11926
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
If I am able to build a separate room, what would be the minimum dimentions for the inner space? You said 20m2. Should it be square or rectangular? Let's say 5m x 4m ? Or it can be 6m x 3m? And what about the roof? how tall should it be?
Rectangular, NEVER square. No two dimensions should be direct multiples of each other, nor within 5% of being a direct multiple. There's a concept called "room ratio" which is very closely related to another concept, called "modal response". If you search for those two using the search feature on the forum, you'll find a lot of information that should help you choose your dimensions.


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Poland, kolobrzeg
Soundman2020 wrote:
Quote:
If I am able to build a separate room, what would be the minimum dimentions for the inner space? You said 20m2. Should it be square or rectangular? Let's say 5m x 4m ? Or it can be 6m x 3m? And what about the roof? how tall should it be?
Rectangular, NEVER square. No two dimensions should be direct multiples of each other, nor within 5% of being a direct multiple. There's a concept called "room ratio" which is very closely related to another concept, called "modal response". If you search for those two using the search feature on the forum, you'll find a lot of information that should help you choose your dimensions.


- Stuart -


Thanks everyone for the suggestions, Stuart, Greg,

It took me a lot to answer because actually I have been very busy at work. Anyway, I still haven't dicided what will happen with my project. I certainly don't have a lot of options. Anyway I think I will have to build it separately. But, still I am thinking to build not a studio but a quiet room in the house. Because that is very important for my mental health. I live in a village and the people here like to have a lot of dogs, chickens, cut the grass once in a week, to fix cars in them backyard and basicly use a lot of power tools for them projects. So in order to avoid all that noise inside of the house.

I sill don't have any idea of how big is going to be, but when I am ready I will comeback for an opinion, if you don't mind! Hopefuly not! :shock:

Thanks again and talk to you soon!

_________________
"We like music"
- Raul


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:28 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11926
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
Anyway, I still haven't dicided what will happen with my project.
Is there another, larger, room in your house that you could use for your studio?

If that room you mention is all you have then it's certainly better than no room at all! But if there's another option, bigger, that would be better.

It is possible to improve the acoustics of your room, yes, but as Greg pointed out, small rooms have drawbacks. The question here is: What are you your goals? If you want your room to be the next Abbey Road or Galaxy, clearly that's not going to happen. But if you just want it to be sort of acceptable as a hobby studio, then that is feasible.

Lowering the floor is an option: more ceiling height and more room volume are both good. That's worthwhile doing if you want to make it as good as it can possibly be, and as long as you recognize that it still won't be amazingly fantastic. But once again, if that's all you've got, then it is absolutely better than not having any place at all! It can be workable, but that's about it. With only about 6m2 total, it's going to sound "boxy" and "dull", and it will be rather cramped to work in. As long as you can live with the limitations, then it is an option.


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group