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 Post subject: Live Room + Vocal Cabin
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:34 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:22 am
Posts: 3
Location: Poland
Hello Everyone.

Where am i located: Poland, Europe - small village on the outskirts of the forest

What do i want to do: Record many different instruments (guitars - mainly acoustic but also electric and bass, drums - djembe, congas, bongos, flutes, sometimes a saxophone and vocals. The percussion will come with time.
I want to have a room where I can broadcast live concerts. But also make recordings for more complex projects.

What and where is the facility: The rooms are located on the second floor of a family home. The entire floor is currently unfinished, without heating. On the ground floor, I live with my family. For the construction of the studio I have designated two rooms with a separate entrance from the yard.

Where i am with the project: I built a steel staircase outside. I created a floor heating system. I started the construction of a wooden frame, under which I wanted to put the wool, and then cover everything with material. But I gave up because I'm afraid of the sound-drowning of the room and the lack of control over adaptation. I also care about the unique design. I decided to use the box-in-box technique. I want to use wooden beams and Rockton Acoustic wool - 5cm in the entire main room, and 10cm in the vocal room. The whole will be covered with a plasterboards. This will be done by a professional company.

At the moment I am facing a very important choice, without which I can not start further work. It's about the ceiling. I am an artist and a vision of doing something special appears in my head. The main room has the ability to do a high ceiling of about 15ft (at the top). However, the roof above room is irregular. Or I can do a regular ceiling, using plasterboard and Rockwool Rocton wool.



After all, I will measure the acoustics of the room and use absorbers and diffusers to control the sound of the room.

In the pictures you can see the rooms, in one of the walls I have to knock a hole for the window and the door (the wall on which the table now stands). The window will have a size of 3.6x3.6ft (110x110cm), the door 3ft x 6.5ft (70x200cm)
A place with a table is a place to play / record live. I also want to record instruments here.

The recording equipment will be in the place where the absorber is standing.

Budget: Budget: 3,000$ for rooms and walls, which is what I must do now to move on. Another $ 1000-2000 for adaptation. In my country, the prices of many things are much lower than elsewhere, but people also earn less - payment of the average citizen is $ 650. Generally, I care about the lowest costs, but I'm ready to do a lot for this place! Also, i have skills that will allow me to do a lot of construction things by myself.

Question List:

1. Main question: What is your opinion about the ceiling? Should I make a regular flat ceiling at 260cm, do I use the opportunity I give to raise the ceiling?

2. Is it really the construction under plasterboard panels must be made of wood, or can I use standard steel slats? I once read that the metal carries the sound vibrations, and it can be a problem later. Everything will be mounted by a professional, I want to leave gaps from the floor and ceiling so that the walls can work. Wood is a lot more expensive.

3. On the wall with the main exit I wanted to make a wardrobe to order on two sides. I have a lot of video equipment that I need to hide somewhere, but it is not necessary. Is it better to align the room by building wardrobes, or leave bigger as it is?

That's all for now, i hope my English is readable!

And i hope to play together, creating something beautiful! :)


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"Without music, life would be a mistake." -
Friedrich Nietzsche.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:43 am 
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Location: St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Hello Miguelito,

Can you please fill out the rest of your profile? Thank you!

Quote:
The rooms are located on the second floor of a family home.

Can you contact a structural engineer and ask them about the loads your floor can hold?

Quote:
I created a floor heating system. I started the construction of a wooden frame, under which I wanted to put the wool, and then cover everything with material. But I gave up because I'm afraid of the sound-drowning of the room and the lack of control over adaptation.

So you are giving up on that idea and pulling out the flooring framing you've installed?

Quote:
I decided to use the box-in-box technique. I want to use wooden beams and Rockton Acoustic wool - 5cm in the entire main room, and 10cm in the vocal room. The whole will be covered with a plasterboards. This will be done by a professional company.

Again, you should get a approval by a structural engineer for the extra load on your floor. This construction technique is exponentially more heavy than a regular home construction.

Quote:
The main room has the ability to do a high ceiling of about 15ft (at the top). However, the roof above room is irregular. Or I can do a regular ceiling, using plasterboard and Rockwool Rocton wool.

If it's in your budget, do it. It's always a good idea to have more height. Again, talk to a structural engineer and see what options you have to rising your ceiling height.

Quote:
A place with a table is a place to play / record live. I also want to record instruments here.

So you want the control room (where you prioritize mixing) to also double as a room to record instruments in?

Quote:
1. Main question: What is your opinion about the ceiling? Should I make a regular flat ceiling at 260cm, do I use the opportunity I give to raise the ceiling?

I answered above.

Quote:
2. Is it really the construction under plasterboard panels must be made of wood, or can I use standard steel slats? I once read that the metal carries the sound vibrations, and it can be a problem later. Everything will be mounted by a professional, I want to leave gaps from the floor and ceiling so that the walls can work. Wood is a lot more expensive.

Use wood.

Quote:
3. On the wall with the main exit I wanted to make a wardrobe to order on two sides. I have a lot of video equipment that I need to hide somewhere, but it is not necessary. Is it better to align the room by building wardrobes, or leave bigger as it is?

I dont understand what you mean by wardrobes. I'm sorry.

- You need to look into what you're going to do for ventilation. You NEED fresh air.

- How much isolation do you need?

- Do you need sunlight in your rooms? You mentioned adding a window. To add a window and have great isolation, it will require special glass, special construction, and overall expense. The same goes for your door. It appears you've already added a door. If you require isolation, you need special doors.

What is your floor made of / how is it constructed?

You're smart for stopping construction now. You NEED to make sure you figure out exactly what you're going to do and get appropriate permits before you start. You do not want to build the place, have the floor collapse and kill your family. I'm not joking here.

Greg

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:22 am
Posts: 3
Location: Poland
Thank you very much for your response!


I'm sure the floor will last a lot. This is a very solid house. However, I would not like to interfere in the construction of the floor in the main room. I have not done anything in the vocal booth yet, the floor is rough. And here I can do some floor-framing.

Quote:
So you are giving up on that idea and pulling out the flooring framing you've installed?


I had in mind the framing system on the walls. There was no flooring framing on the floor. There is Styrofoam + heating installation + concrete screed.


Quote:
So you want the control room (where you prioritize mixing) to also double as a room to record instruments in?


Yes

Quote:
- You need to look into what you're going to do for ventilation. You NEED fresh air.


There are doors leading directly to the garden, but I can install a mechanical ventilation system - I have experience in this.

Quote:
- How much isolation do you need?


I do not need to insulate the room very much. But the wool in the walls will have a positive effect on the acoustics, in addition the rest of the floor in the house is not heated so wool will fulfill the function of thermal insulation.

Quote:
- Do you need sunlight in your rooms? You mentioned adding a window. To add a window and have great isolation, it will require special glass, special construction, and overall expense. The same goes for your door. It appears you've already added a door. If you require isolation, you need special doors.


I meant the window between the live room and the vocal room (check the project-draft)

Quote:
What is your floor made of / how is it constructed?


The floor in the main room is 30cm concrete + 6cm styrofoam + heating installation + 5cm concrete.
Vocal room is 30cm concrete.

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"Without music, life would be a mistake." -
Friedrich Nietzsche.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 11973
Location: Santiago, Chile
Hi there " Miguelito ", and Welcome! :)

Congratulations on deciding to build your own place! Now for some reality... :)

Quote:
The rooms are located on the second floor of a family home.
Building on the second floor is always a problem, and never as easy as building on the ground floor. Isolating a studio implies a very large amount of mass (weight), as Greg already pointed out. Reinforcing he existing structure to handle that weight is expensive. If you can't afford to do that, then you won't be able to get good isolation, and will have to settle for only "mediocre" isolation.

Quote:
I'm sure the floor will last a lot.
Unless you are a qualified structural engineer, then "being sure" is not much use! You probably don't realize it yet, but you will be adding thousands of kilograms of extra weight to that floor. You DO need a structural engineer to examine the existing floor, and give you a written report stating what the current live load and dead load are, and what the maximum allowable live load and dead load are. That's the ONLY way you can be certain that about how much extra mass you can add. Guessing and hoping and "being sure" will not save your family downstairs, if that floor collapses one day from being overloaded, because you didn't get it checked...

Quote:
There is Styrofoam + heating installation + concrete screed
So the existing floor up there is already a concrete slab? How thick? Is that structural? How is it supported? Are there beams of some type under the locations where you plan to have walls?

Quote:
but I can install a mechanical ventilation system - I have experience in this.
Good! So the very first thing you need to then is to calculate the correct air flow rate and air flow velocity for each room of your studio, as well as the latent heat load and sensible heat load, so that you can define the correct AHU, register areas, and duct cross sections at the registers. Then you can use that to calculate the sizes of each of your silencer boxes, and the duct runs, then you can use that to calculate the static pressure, and check that the AHU can handle that static pressure. If not, you might need to change your choice of AHU to a high-static model, or reduce the static pressure of your system design, by changing duct sizes, duct length, registers, etc. Once you have that all worked out, then you can design the actual silencer boxes. The are very large, so it's important to know how big they will be BEFORE you start planning the wall and ceiling locations, as you need to leave space for the ducts and silencers. You say you have done this before, so you probably already know that, but for a studio it is even more important.
Quote:
I do not need to insulate the room very much.
I think you didn't understand Greg's point: He was talking about ISOLATION, not INSULATION. Yes, you do need insulation as part of your isolation system, but it's not the same thing. It is possible to insulate a room without isolating it at all, and it is possible to isolate a room without using any insulation....

The very first thing you need to do is to define how much ISOLATION you need, in decibels. Everything else about your room depends on that.

Quote:
But the wool in the walls will have a positive effect on the acoustics,
Actually, no it wont! :) But even if it did, that is NOT what we are talking about here: we are talking about ISOLATING the room, to prevent sound from getting in and out. We are NOT yet talking about the acoustic response of the room itself. That's an entirely different thing.

Quote:
in addition the rest of the floor in the house is not heated so wool will fulfill the function of thermal insulation.
That's irrelevant. Thermal insulation and acoustic insulation are two different things. Yes, the type of insulation used for acoustics does also have good thermal properties, but not the other way around. For example, the styrofoam in your floor has very good thermal properties, but ZERO acoustic properties: it is no use at all for acoustics, because it is closed-cell foam. Acoustic insulation MUST be open-cell (never closed cell), and must also have the correct gas flow resistivity properties (GFR), which has no meaning at all for thermal insulation.

It seems that you are confusing many issues at one here; Isolation is not insulation (two different things), isolation is not related to room acoustics (two different things), and thermal insulation is not necessarily any use for acoustic insulation (two different things).
Quote:
The floor in the main room is 30cm concrete + 6cm styrofoam + heating installation + 5cm concrete.
So you already have a 2-leaf floor. Is the upper leaf full decoupled (acoustically) from the rest of the building? Did you calculate the MSM resonant frequency of that system, to check that it is low enough? Are you aware that if you add another floor on top of that with an air gap that you would be creating a 3-leaf system, which could potentially mae your isolation WORSE, not better?

Quote:
...record many different instruments (guitars - mainly acoustic but also electric and bass, drums - djembe, congas, bongos,
Those are the loudest instruments, and out out a lot of sound power, and some of them also create issues with impact noise.

Quote:
I started the construction of a wooden frame, under which I wanted to put the wool,
Are you talking about the walls? Or a new floor on top of the slab?

Quote:
But I gave up because I'm afraid of the sound-drowning of the room and the lack of control over adaptation.
I'm not sure what you mean by "sound drowning". Please can you explain that.

Quote:
I decided to use the box-in-box technique.
:thu:

Quote:
I want to use wooden beams and Rockton Acoustic wool
Why? :)

Quote:
5cm in the entire main room, and 10cm in the vocal room. The whole will be covered with a plasterboards.
Why do you want a THINNER cavity in the LOUDEST room, and a DEEPER cavity in the QUIETEST room? I'm not following the concept here. Did you check the MSM resonant characteristics of those walls, to be sure that they will provide the amount if isolation that you need?

Quote:
It's about the ceiling. I am an artist and a vision of doing something special appears in my head.
Studios are meat for sound. Yes, they should also look good, but the first priority in designing a studio should be to make it SOUND good. So first design it for good acsoutics response, then see what you can do with that design to make it look nice, aesthetically.

Quote:
The main room has the ability to do a high ceiling of about 15ft (at the top). However, the roof above room is irregular. Or I can do a regular ceiling, using plasterboard and Rockwool Rocton wool.
The control room ceiling can be irregular if you want, and it can be sloped if you want. However, it MUST be symmetrical, and if you do slope it, then it needs to be lowest over the speakers and console, sloping UP to be highest at the back of the room.

Quote:
1. Main question: What is your opinion about the ceiling? Should I make a regular flat ceiling at 260cm, do I use the opportunity I give to raise the ceiling?
As Greg already said: if you can raise it, then raise it! However, those roof trusses will need to be modified to allow you to raise the ceiling, and that is going to be expensive. Once again, you will need a structural engineer to tell you how to do those modifications. Some of my customers have modified their roof trusses for studios that I designed for them, so it can be done, but it is not simple, and not cheap. Do NOT change anything on those roof trusses without first consulting a professional structural engineer. Roof truss carry very large loads, tensions, and stresses, in all directions at once. Messing with a roof truss can cause not just the roof to collapse, but also the walls.

Quote:
I want to leave gaps from the floor and ceiling so that the walls can work.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Your inner-leaf walls cannot have any gaps. Not even tiny ones. They must be fully sealed, hermetic. Completely air-tight.

- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:22 am
Posts: 3
Location: Poland
Quote:
Building on the second floor is always a problem, and never as easy as building on the ground floor. Isolating a studio implies a very large amount of mass (weight), as Greg already pointed out. Reinforcing he existing structure to handle that weight is expensive. If you can't afford to do that, then you won't be able to get good isolation, and will have to settle for only "mediocre" isolation.


This house is a very solid construction. My house has half a meter long walls made of bricks set crosswise. All structural elements have been strengthened. A wooden frame in which I put the wool will adhere to the walls, will not be resting on the floor. The load-bearing capacity of the walls was measured by a professional. He will build a new walls. The house was not built with the thought of building a studio. I have to act with what I have.

Quote:
Unless you are a qualified structural engineer, then "being sure" is not much use! You probably don't realize it yet, but you will be adding thousands of kilograms of extra weight to that floor. You DO need a structural engineer ...


As i mentioned above, i checked it.

Quote:
So the existing floor up there is already a concrete slab? How thick? Is that structural? How is it supported? Are there beams of some type under the locations where you plan to have walls? Only those bolted to existing ones.


There will be no new walls - check the project. Only those bolted to existing ones.

Quote:
Actually, no it wont! :) But even if it did, that is NOT what we are talking about here: we are talking about ISOLATING the room, to prevent sound from getting in and out. We are NOT yet talking about the acoustic response of the room itself. That's an entirely different thing.


I used the wrong word - I meant isolation. I dont need to isolate the room very much.
Sorry for my english, it is not my main language. It is not easy to communicate with you, but we can!

Quote:
So you already have a 2-leaf floor. Is the upper leaf full decoupled (acoustically) from the rest of the building? Did you calculate the MSM resonant frequency of that system, to check that it is low enough? Are you aware that if you add another floor on top of that with an air gap that you would be creating a 3-leaf system, which could potentially mae your isolation WORSE, not better?


I wrote that I will not build a frame-floor in the live room.
I will put a special foam under the floor panels. After maybe i will use some carpet if there is a need to.

Quote:
...record many different instruments (guitars - mainly acoustic but also electric and bass, drums - djembe, congas, bongos,


Noise is not a problem, but I read a lot about the fact that making walls not connected to the floor and ceiling can solve the bass problem (in addition, I consulted with the acoustic company).

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "sound drowning". Please can you explain that.


When you put too many elements of sound absorption in one room. Then the room is dead acoustically - this is what i meant.

Quote:
Why? :)


Because the wood does not transmit vibrations and the wool has good acoustic and air properties.

Quote:
The control room ceiling can be irregular if you want, and it can be sloped if you want. However, it MUST be symmetrical, and if you do slope it, then it needs to be lowest over the speakers and console, sloping UP to be highest at the back of the room.


I also think about making the ceiling closer to the monitors and leaving it open to the live-room. I think I will take care of the acoustic adaptation using absorbers.


Quote:
As Greg said: if you can pick it up, then pick it up! However, these roof trusses will have to be modified to allow raising the ceiling, and it will be expensive. Again, you will need a construction engineer who will tell you how to make these modifications. Some of my clients have changed their roof trusses in the studios that I designed for them, so you can do it, but it's not easy, not cheap. DO NOT change anything on these roof trusses without first consulting with a professional construction engineer. The roof rafter carries very high loads, stresses and stresses in all directions at once. Using a roof truss can cause not only the collapse of the roof, but also the walls.



The entire reconstruction will be led by a professional.
However, please understand that the place where the roof is, was designed for the next floor, which was not finally built.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Your inner-leaf walls cannot have any gaps. Not even tiny ones. They must be fully sealed, hermetic. Completely air-tight.


There will be a break of 0.03 ft at the floor and the same at the ceiling so that the walls do not touch the ceiling. It will be masked.
In my understanding, such a wall will have a good acoustic effect on the bass.

I have already ordered a wood, it will arrive on Saturday. On Monday it starts with construction.
This type of walls is the only one I can build in a room.
What I care about most is the acoustic adaptation in the room.
But first, I have to get the walls.

I ordered a construction wood, it will be on Saturday, and I start construction on Monday.
I know that many things can be done better, but the budget is limited. I assure you that the house is structurally safe.
Use what you have to get what you want.


Thank You for response, i hope You still want to be a part of this project by giving me your advices.

_________________
"Without music, life would be a mistake." -
Friedrich Nietzsche.


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