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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Hello, I need to soundproof retail space for music production. There will likely be at least one neighbor on an Adjoining wall. Trying to decide how large a space to rent, So I need to know about how much floor space I will lose to soundproofing, i.e. how thick the inner walls and any air space need to be For effective soundproofing. Any information in this regard would be appreciated. Thanks, audion


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Welcome to the forum audion!
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So I need to know about how much floor space I will lose to soundproofing, i.e. how thick the inner walls and any air space need to be For effective soundproofing.

That is a very hard question to answer definitively.

Pretty much the first thing asked and determined when building a studio space is "How much isolation do you need?" This is hands down the most important factor. A few days ago my buddy had me over to help him figure out what he needed to do for a little drum room to make it sound good and look cool. After taking some SPL measurements outside while he was playing, we quickly determined that he was louder than the city bylaw would allow and that took his project from a small cheap project to a large expensive one since he needed much higher levels of isolation than he initially thought.

I'm assuming that since your studio is in a commercial building with other businesses sharing the building, you need high levels of isolation. To achieve these levels of transmission loss, you will need to build any rooms that have either loud sound produced in them, require critical listening (such as your control room or editing suite), OR are tracking rooms where more quiet sources will be recorded (such as vocals, acoustic guitar, etc), you need to construct these rooms as MSM systems. This means a room in a room design.

MSM systems require two walls with a gap between them (the gap is filled with appropriate insulation). In a lot of commercial spaces, the one wall is often concrete! Well, one of the 4 outer leaf walls anyway! To determine how much floor space this will take up, you can figure out the gap between the walls you need as well as how many layers of OSB/drywall you need to achieve your required transmission loss. I threw together this excel spreadsheet to speed up that process: TL Calculator

Quote:
Trying to decide how large a space to rent

Floor plan layout. This is probably more important than how much space your inner leaf walls are going to eat up. Sound locks, hallways, lounge, bathrooms, machine rooms, storage rooms, ISO booths, live room, control room, and utility room. Also, there probably need to be some square footage eaten up for HVAC duct work and/or silencers. How these all work together to make a cohesive space is going to be your major concern. And realistically, I think budget is going to be EVERYTHING. How much can you afford per month for lease? How much do you have to spend on design (unless you're going to do it all yourself by reading the forum and some books and asking questions)? How much do you have to spend on materials and labour and machinery? What is your time frame?

I'd say to try and get a space with a super high ceiling. Not only is it desirable for live room acoustics, it's pretty much necessary for HVAC duct work and silencers. Also, it allows for more bass trapping in your control room ceiling and will allow you to design your control room could with ease unlike us home studio folk who have pretty limited ceiling heights to work with!

You didn't really go into much detail about your needs. Is this going to be a single room control room type production suite where you mix purely electronic sounds? Or is this a full scale multi-room recording studio? Or something in between?

I hope I answered your questions. Again, it is pretty hard without more detail from you. I look forward to your response :wink:

Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Hello,

Thank you for your nice response.

Probably just a multipurpose room, in a retail space. I would love a high ceiling. Its for mixing and tracking, so probably need pretty substantial soundproofing to avoid complaints. Just looking to find out about how far from the existing perimeter walls the inner wall would need to be, so that I can see how much floor space would be taken up. Thanks again for your reply.


audion


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:04 am 
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Probably just a multipurpose room. Its for mixing and tracking,
That's going to be a problem! The acoustic response that a room absolutely MUST have to be good for mixing, is also terrible for tracking. For a control room (mixing room), the acoustic response must be totally neutral, flat, and "transparent" (here's an example: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 ), because that is what your ears and brain need in order to be able to mix correctly. But that's lousy for tracking! Acoustic instruments need a "brighter" room, with more "life" and "air" and "character", or the recording just sounds dull and uninteresting.

So, you might think: "Well, then, I'll just do something in between! I'll treat it so it is part way between what a mixing room needs, and what a live room needs." That sounds logical, but in reality what you would get is a room that is lousy for BOTH! It would be terrible for mixing, and it wont be any good for tracking either.

If you want to have a room that is good for both, then you will need to design special "variable acoustic" devices that can be hinged, slid, rotated, swung, flipped, opened, closed, or otherwise modified in some manner that changes the acoustic response of the room as needed. That's the real solution, but not so easy to do...

Even better is to have separate tracking and mixing rooms, each with it's own specific purpose, and correct, specific acoustics response tailored exactly for each room. (here's another example: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21368 )

Quote:
so probably need pretty substantial soundproofing to avoid complaints.
How much is "substantial"? That's a subjective word, not an objective measurement. There are equations and tables an charts and graphs that you can use to decide on isolation materials and techniques, but you need to know how much isolation you need, in measurable real-world objective numbers, in order to use those. If not, then you are just guessing.

So, the very first thing you need to do, is to define a number: "How many decibels of isolation you need". You do that by measuring two things, using a proper hand-held sound level meter. First you measure how loud you are in a typical recording session, then you measure how quiet you have to be outside to avoid annoying the neighbors. Subtract one from the other, and that difference is how much isolation you need. Simple.

Quote:
Just looking to find out about how far from the existing perimeter walls the inner wall would need to be, so that I can see how much floor space would be taken up.
It is impossible to know that until you know how much isolation you need! Until you have that number ("how many decibels of isolation you need"), it is not possible to say how much space your isolation system will take up. Asking how thick that wall will be is sort of like somebody saying: "I want to buy a truck to transport rocks: how big does the truck have to be?". That, too, is impossible to answer until they say how heavy the load will be. There's a huge difference between a truck that can transport 100 kg of rocks, and one that can transport 100 tons of rocks. And in exactly the same way (same scale too) there's a huge difference between a wall that isolates 40 dB and one that isolates 70 dB. I say this is the "same scale", because just as 100 tons is a thousand times greater than 100 kg, so to 70 dB isolation is a thousand times greater than 40 dB of isolation.

Basically, do you need this:?

Attachment:
large-dump-truck-2.jpg


Or do you need this:?

Attachment:
tiny-quarter-ton-truck-SML-ENH-CRP.jpg


Both are dump trucks, both can carry rocks, and both do the job they were designed for, except that one is designed to carry a load one thousand times heavier than the other. Until you define your load, you won't know which one to buy! Likewise with your studio: until you define the isolation "load" that you need, you won't know how to build it.

This is what Greg was pointing out to you, with the story of the studio for his friend. Until they actually measured the levels, his friend had no idea what type of construction or what materials he would need.

Hopefully that helps you understand that there's a very large difference in designing walls for different levels of isolation, and why it is so important to define your isolation requirement correctly. You are asking questions that cannot be answered until you provide the data that is needed to answer them. that's why Greg didn't give you an answer to your question: nobody can answer it, until you first define the question in terms that can be answered.


- Stuart -


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:00 am 
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Hello,

If people could please stop posting saying that what I am trying to do is "a problem", I would very much appreciate it. I am not situated to do all the stuff that is being described at the moment. But I need to get my gear into a space and out of storage so that I can make some use of it.

Its very frustrating and depressing to hear people go on and on about how what I am trying to do "won't work".

I am an experienced musician / producer / composer / engineer. I have been doing it for decades and have done work in many large, prestigious facilities, so it is not that I do not like beautiful, elaborately designed rooms. I just can't do that right now. I have also done a lot of really great sounding stuff in what you all would probably consider "unacceptable" spaces.

I just need to soundproof a place to begin with. Best I can do right now. I will probably build a barn on my property later and fix it up nice, but for now .............

When I say substantial soundproofing, I mean I need soundproof the perimeter of the room, to not be a nuisance to the neighbors, while mixing, and tracking. Drums, bass, guitars, keyboards, vocals and the like. And I need to not be bothered by road noise, or that type of thing from outside.

Surely some of you must know about how loud a typical tracking session is. That would probably be the loudest thing happening. Can't somebody just give me at least a rough idea of about how thick the soundproofing walls / space need to be? If not, I guess I will have to ask somewhere else. Is there another forum where my question would be better posted?

Maybe someone knows of a consultant in my area?

Thank you very much for understanding. I would be grateful for any help with this.


audion


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am 
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We are not trying to bum you out or say that what you're trying to do is "a problem". We are saying that we don't want you to waste time or money building your space in a manner that isn't suitable for your situation.

"Soundproofing" doesn't exist. Isolating to different degrees is what happens. Soundproofing implies silence. That is impossible unless you're in space or you're able to suck all the air out of the building your studio is in.

We all know how loud a drum kit is (between 100 and 120dB depending on the genre and player/gear). What we are asking you is how well the building currently isolates from space to space. Maybe the wall between you and the business next door is 4 foot thick cement. Maybe it's a 2x4 wooden frame with no insulation and lightweight drywall on either side. These walls will provide drastically different levels of isolation. If the current dividing wall has drywall on it, you'll have to rip that off to prevent having a three leaf system.

Let's put it this way so that you feel like you're getting answers: A typical home studio will be build using a room in a room type construction. Each leaf (wall) will have 2 layers of heavy fire rated 5/8" drywall on them with green glue compound between the layers of drywall. Every seam is sealed with something like green glue sealant. The TL Calculator I linked you to before will show you the levels of isolation you will achieve having different gaps between the wall studs. Typically the minimum gap you would ever have between the wall frames would be 1" to take things like warped studs into consideration -- this would prevent flanking. Even with that 1" gap, you will get usable levels of transmission loss, even at the pesky low frequencies.

Now, when we ask you to provide some SPL readings, what we are looking for is what the background noise level is in your neighbours business. Let's say it floats around 65 dB for example. Now, say you set up a drum kit and/or bass amp in your space and crank it as loud as you can, then go next door and take your reading (by the way, you measure with your meter set to C weighted and slow). Say the level in their business is now at like 90 dB, that means you need to achieve an extra 25 dB of transmission loss with your wall system. With the TL calculator I provided, you can see if you will achieve those figures. Without those measurements, you might under build your walls (which would render your space useless), OR you will spend weeks/months extra plus all the extra unnecessary materials OVER building your wall/ceiling system. Sure it will be super nice and quiet, but you just wasted time and money that could go to your retirement fund. I think I proved my point.

I can give you a figure here, but it might be way too much or way too little:

Assuming you have a concrete dividing wall, you could leave yourself a 6" gap between that wall and your inner leaf wall frame. Assuming you'll have a commercial space with a nice tall ceiling, you'll have to use 2x6 dimensional lumber. Then, you'll have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall. Simple math says that from the edge of the concrete dividing wall to the inside of your studio space:

6 inch gap + 5 1/2" dimensional lumber + 5/8" drywall + 5/8" drywall = 12 3/4"

Now, for the ceiling height, that 100% all depends on how far your span across your rooms will be. If you have one massive live room, that means you'll have a long span for your inner leaf ceiling joists. The further they span, the deeper the LVL stud will have to be. Maybe even 14+ inches deep. If your floor plan layout puts your rooms at shorter widths, you will have LVL stud that doesn't have as much depth.

However, HVAC is something you cannot avoid dealing with/planning. Each room in your facility needs at least 6 air changes per hour. This is as much as ANY room in a typical house has. Without that many changes, you risk airborne germs from making you sick, mould growth, humidity issues and straight up lack of fresh oxygen. Now, if you've gone to all of the work and invested all the money to achieve your needed transmission loss with your wall and ceiling systems, you will have to cut large holes in your walls and/or ceilings for the HVAC. Now all of your sound gets out and comes in. The solution for that is to achieve the same level of insertion loss as the transmission loss your walls/ceiling/floor provide. That is done with HVAC silencer boxes. These are all home made and are custom to your needs. They aren't complicated and are not hard to build. The problem with them is that they are large, just like the muffler on your car or motorcycle. The size of them is critical to their function. Doubling in cross sectional area created an impedance mismatch which is one of several things that make them work. Each room in your facility needs 4 silencer boxes. One for each leaf penetration on both the supply and return ducts.

Now, since you've gone this far in your design and build, you might as well do the final little step in HVAC design and make sure that your air velocity is slower than 300 feet per minute. This will allow you to record and mix without the hiss of fast air coming out of your register grilles. Typically, when you have double the cross sectional area in your ducts from your silencer boxes, this is large enough to slow your air velocity down to the required <300 ft/min.

The two other aspects that can affect your "sound proofing" would be doors and windows. Just like your silencer box, you'll need to maintain your transmission loss level. That means the material in you silencer boxes, windows and doors will have to be the same or greater surface density as your walls. That means heavy heavy doors and pretty extreme laminated glass. Each leaf (inner and outer) will need it's own door and window.

Now, I'm not describing just a "pro level studio" here. I'm describing what you're asking to build.
Quote:
I just need to soundproof a place to begin with. Best I can do right now.

That is what it takes. If you don't do even one of the things I described, you won't have a "sound proofed" room. It's like a fish tank. If there's weak spot (a leak), all the water gets out. Another analogy is if you want to block the sun in your bedroom, you hang up some heavy sheets. If there's a spot where it isn't as thick, the sun will get through (maybe not fully, but it'll still light up your room).

We are here to help. Often that help means bluntly telling you how it is. It's only to make you think and realize what you may have over looked. The last thing we want anyone on the forum to do it build a space thinking it's going to be awesome and then it doesn't work because the business next to you called the cops and you get shut down.

Speaking of the law, you need to get permits for everything you do. For the ceiling joists, unless it's a broom closet, you'll have to use engineered LVL stud type wood which requires an engineers stamp. It doesn't cost much (in the big picture), but often you can't even buy the wood without it. Furthermore, you won't pass the framing inspection without presenting the inspector the paper work showing that your engineer signed off on it.

Please don't think we are jerks here. We are not. We just hit you with the questions and facts it takes to give you the answers you need. The results are always safe builds that work as expected.... or better.

Greg

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Last edited by Gregwor on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:26 am 
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If people could please stop posting saying that what I am trying to do is "a problem", I would very much appreciate it.
So you don't actually want the truth, that will enable you to build a studio that does what you want? Strange attitude....

Quote:
Its very frustrating and depressing to hear people go on and on about how what I am trying to do "won't work".
IT seems you didn't read the rest of what I wrote, because I clearly explained HOW you can MAKE it work... but you ignored that part... Even though I gave you several options...

Quote:
I am an experienced musician / producer / composer / engineer. I have been doing it for decades and have done work in many large, prestigious facilities, so it is not that I do not like beautiful, elaborately designed rooms. I just can't do that right now. I have also done a lot of really great sounding stuff in what you all would probably consider "unacceptable" spaces.
You are talking about the acoustic response inside the rooms, but that is totally unrelated to your question about isolation. There is no link at all between how to isolate a room, and how to treat it. Those are two entirely different, and exact opposite, facets of acoustics.

Quote:
I just need to soundproof a place to begin with.
Fine, but as Greg mentioned, their is no such thing as "soundproof". Acousticians don't use that term much, because it is meaningless. Instead, we use "isolation" to talk about stopping sound from getting in or out, and "acoustic response" to talk about what the room sounds like inside. Those are entirely and completely different things. You can have a room with lousy isolation but that has great acoustic response, and it would be just as unusable as a room that is very well isolated but has poor acoustic response. You need both of those to have a usable room, and they are independent. And neither of them is "soundproofing".

Quote:
When I say substantial soundproofing, I mean I need soundproof the perimeter of the room, to not be a nuisance to the neighbors, while mixing, and tracking. Drums, bass, guitars, keyboards, vocals and the like. And I need to not be bothered by road noise, or that type of thing from outside.
That still isn't a number! Unless you are willing go give us a number, we can't tell you what you will need to do! Guessing is not a good way to build a studio.

What you consider to be an acceptable level that is "to not be a nuisance to the neighbors" might not be what THEY consider to be not a nuisance, and what I consider might be different again, with Greg likely having yet another opinion. And your local noise regulations having yet ANOTHER opinion, but that's the one that matters most, since it is the one the defines whether you'll just get a warning when the cops knock on your door, or a fine, or a court order to shut your place down.

Quote:
Surely some of you must know about how loud a typical tracking session is.
Yes we do, but you didn't way what type of session! What instruments? How many of each? What genre? Even if we assume a typical 6-man band of drums, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, keyboard and vocalist, that's STILL no good! That might be a soft jazz ensemble singing the blues quietly, or it might be a Grateful Dead cover band, belting it out so loud the ground is shaking! Unelss you tell us, we can't know what you are trying to do! Why won't you tell us?

Long story short: we can only help you as much as you help us with valid information. If you won't do that, then we can't help! It's that simple. Not because we don't WANT to help, but because we can't.

If you go to the doctor and tell him "I'm sick. Make me better", but then you refuse to tell him what your symptoms are, and refuse to even get a blood test done, will he be able to treat you? That's what you are doing here. If you won't give us the info we need, then we can't help you.

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Can't somebody just give me at least a rough idea of about how thick the soundproofing walls / space need to be? If not, I guess I will have to ask somewhere else. Is there another forum where my question would be better posted?
Really? I mean seriously? Is that your attitude to people who are trying to help you, but you won't give them the info that they need?

Frankly, if that's the attitude you have towards getting free professional advice from the best place on the internet, then you probably SHOULD go look elsewhere. YouTube might be what you are looking for: there are thousands of really poorly done studios there, with wonderful videos about how they did it, that don't mention all the mistakes they made, or show how terrible it turned out. If you just want useless advice based on pure guesswork with no science at all behind it, and don't mind your studio being a total failure like all of those are, then that's where you should be.

On the other hand, if you DO want your studio to isolate well, and you DO want it to sound amazing in there, then you are in the right place here. Just give us the info that we need to help you.

And read my signature.

Quote:
Maybe someone knows of a consultant in my area?
A few of us here on the forum do consulting, but if you hire a consultant, the very first thing he will ask you is this: "How many decibels of isolation do you need"? :) If you refuse to tell him that, then he won't be able to help you either, no matter how much you pay him...



- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:42 am 
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Greg,

could you please delete the part of your post where you admittedly went over the line? Its not funny, and, honestly, I don't see what point you say you proved with it. I am dealing with a scare.

I will write more later.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:44 am 
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Stuart,

could you please delete the medical problems reference. sorry to bother you.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Hello Greg,

Thanks very much for all that information. My undergraduate and post grad has been in Studio Music, Jazz, composition, arranging, film scoring, voice and the like, along with recording engineering [and oh, yeah, some law studies]. My family had a construction business and I did some work there, but not too much. So I understand the construction tips you gave, but not really all of it. That's all going to be for a consultant to deal with anyway.

I obviously can't answer your questions about levels and the neighbors, or even the floor space because I haven't chosen or found the space yet. I thought I made that clear at the outset, but maybe it wasn't clear to you. The reason I am asking about how thick the inner wall and space need to be is so that I can know how big a space I need, taking into consideration what floor space would be lost to the inner wall and space. Then I can find a suitable space, hopefully. The high ceiling is probably going to be the hardest part because there does not seem to be much available around here with real high ceilings.

Most of these places have 10' drop ceilings and the ac is already in. Don't know if I will be allowed to re-work the ac or not, but again, the consultant will work on it, I guess. I just want to try to find a large enough space. In my experience, lots of space overcomes a lot of other issues.

One place I looked at has concrete [or cinder block] walls between the units. But most don't. The example you gave assumed a concrete wall. How much "thicker" would it need to be for drywall?

Did you see my previous post? I would appreciate it, man.

audion


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Did you see my previous post? I would appreciate it, man.

Done bud. But for real, saving money is the name of the game.

Quote:
That's all going to be for a consultant to deal with anyway.

What sort of consultant? Aren't you getting free consultation right here on the forum? Honestly, the construction techniques required to build a studio is pretty much nothing like standard construction practice. The only thing the two types of builds share is meeting code. For example, HVAC -- sure you have to follow ASHRAE code, but you pretty much throw out all of standard design criteria that would normally be used in a commercial building such as higher velocities at registers to obtain longer throws. Also, throw non-turbulent design concepts as 90 degree turns are all over studio systems. Smooth transition duct work is not allowed in studio silencer boxes as the immediate change allows the necessary impedance mismatch. For actual framing, ask any carpenter in your area if they know how to build an inside out ceiling or wall. Ask them how many king studs you should have at a door. Ask them where noggins should be near a door and how many. Ask an electrician how they would penetrate your wall, how they'd achieve isolated grounds in your space and what legs they'd run your lights, electrical and HVAC on. Ask a drywaller what drywall they'd use and how they'd seal it. Ask a plumber how they'd de-couple conduit runs throughout your space. Ask a window glazier what windows you should use and how they'd install them. I'd put money on it, that pretty much every one of them would not have the right answers for you.

Quote:
How much "thicker" would it need to be for drywall?

That is where the TL calculator comes into play. Just try playing around with it and type in some values. Try using 3 layers of drywall with a 12" gap. It will yield greater isolation. I know it must be so annoying to not get an answer, but for real, until you know how many decibels you need to stop from leaving your room (or entering it --- maybe there's a manufacturing business moving in 16 months from now next door to you with really loud saws), you won't know how much isolation you NEED. If you have the money to spend, build a wall system that has a big gap (you will see though, by entering different gap sizes in the TL calc, that the bigger gap stops yielding such great results and you start even 4 inches more gap only yields small returns. Anyway, I hope that answers your question.

Quote:
Then I can find a suitable space, hopefully.

So this leads us to a question for YOU! If you're so worried about losing a foot or two around the perimeters of your rooms, how big are the rooms you need? What is the criteria that determines if a space is big enough or not? As an example, let me say that your wall system needs to be 1 foot in order to achieve your required level of isolation (build with only wood studs and drywall)?

Quote:
In my experience, lots of space overcomes a lot of other issues.

For sure! But with it comes higher lease/purchase prices as well as longer and more expensive build out prices!

Greg

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:05 pm 
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What sort of consultant? Aren't you getting free consultation right here on the forum?


A studio design / construction consultant who can develop and oversee the buildout [or mini-buildout, as it were]. I am getting a lot of information here, but I am not going to try to convey all that to some construction crew that has never done anything like this before. I mean, I know what Green Glue is, and I follow what you are saying to some degree, but I'll need someone to oversee it. When I was in Manhattan, I had a friend put together a blueprint / plan, and he found a construction guy that knew what he was doing, and I ended up with a pretty nice little one-room studio in my loft.

Do you know anyone in Florida who is good? I would need for that person to coordinate / oversee the process.

Quote:
That is where the TL calculator comes into play. Just try playing around with it and type in some values. Try using 3 layers of drywall with a 12" gap. It will yield greater isolation. I know it must be so annoying to not get an answer, but for real, until you know how many decibels you need to stop from leaving your room (or entering it --- maybe there's a manufacturing business moving in 16 months from now next door to you with really loud saws), you won't know how much isolation you NEED. If you have the money to spend, build a wall system that has a big gap (you will see though, by entering different gap sizes in the TL calc, that the bigger gap stops yielding such great results and you start even 4 inches more gap only yields small returns. Anyway, I hope that answers your question.


Honestly not sure if I know how to use the calculator. There is not going to be any super loud neighbors. These places are just retail stores in strip malls. And if there were super loud neighbors that literally overcame my "soundproofed" space, they would be the ones having to move.

Quote:
So this leads us to a question for YOU! If you're so worried about losing a foot or two around the perimeters of your rooms, how big are the rooms you need? What is the criteria that determines if a space is big enough or not? As an example, let me say that your wall system needs to be 1 foot in order to achieve your required level of isolation (build with only wood studs and drywall)?


Most of the spaces tend to be about 20' wide, which is not a lot to work with, but there are some that are wider, here and there. At 20', if I have to knock off 2' on either side for the wall system, it would be down to 16' wide, which I think that would be a bit narrow for my liking. So I guess I'll probably need to find one that's wider. Most of them are plenty long. I guess I'd like about 1500 square feet, but I may have to do with less. I have kind of a lot of gear. As far as how much isolation in need, all I can tell you is that I need for it to be pretty darn "soundproof", unless by some miracle I can find a free standing building with no neighbors. And most of these places have drywall dividing walls between tenants. I may get lucky and find a big ass space, but I'm trying to at least guesstimate how much I will lose to the wall system so I know what will work at a "minimum" ?????


Thanks,

audion


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:37 am 
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Do you know anyone in Florida who is good? I would need for that person to coordinate / oversee the process.

I personally do not. You could contact some high end studios and ask them who built their places.

Quote:
A studio design / construction consultant

There are several studio designers on the forum. Mainly, John Sayers. Contact him. If he can't do it, he could recommend others.

Quote:
Honestly not sure if I know how to use the calculator.

I included notes telling what line is what.

There is a spot you can enter your surface density of your wall material.
There is a spot where you tell how thick your wood studs are (2x4 or 2x8 or 2x10, or you enter "0" for walls such as concrete).
There is a spot where you enter how far apart these walls will be.

That's it.

Quote:
There is not going to be any super loud neighbors. These places are just retail stores in strip malls. And if there were super loud neighbors that literally overcame my "soundproofed" space, they would be the ones having to move.

Okay, so you really need to keep sound from leaving your space. If the walls are just drywall, chances are they used cheap "ultralight" 1/2" drywall. That means you will have a lot of work to do beefing up the super light drywall on their side of the wall by adding 2 or more layers of 5/8" drywall from YOUR side. That means cutting strips of drywall and putting them against the back side of the existing drywall. You hold that drywall in place using cleats.

Quote:
Most of the spaces tend to be about 20' wide, which is not a lot to work with, but there are some that are wider, here and there. At 20', if I have to knock off 2' on either side for the wall system, it would be down to 16' wide, which I think that would be a bit narrow for my liking. So I guess I'll probably need to find one that's wider. Most of them are plenty long. I guess I'd like about 1500 square feet, but I may have to do with less.

How many rooms will your place have? A control room needs to be at least 20 square meters. A live room typically needs to be quite a bit larger than that. 16' wide isn't too bad. I also doubt your need 24" of wall to achieve the level of isolation you require.

Quote:
I'm trying to at least guesstimate how much I will lose to the wall system so I know what will work at a "minimum" ?????

The minimum gap between your two leaves drywall is 4". You won't get enough isolation for your needs with that size though! Let's put it this way:
The existing diving wall is at least a 2x4 which is 3.5" thick. The inner leaf wall you will build will be the same. So, your MSM cavity is already going to be 7". However, they need to be apart from one another to prevent flanking. So, even if you put an extra inch between them, you're at 8". Let's assume you're on a budget and don't want to go overboard with materials and labour. You will use two layers of 5/8" drywall. Your MSM cavity will have insulation in it.
Attachment:
1%22 MSM.png


Greg


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:54 pm 
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Also, I thought you might find these images useful: (they're from the Wyle WR 73-5R document if you're curious and want to read that beast of a document)
Attachment:
Increasing Panel Spacing.png

Attachment:
Increasing Panel Mass.png

This basically shows that mass on your leaves is more beneficial than the gap. However, mass is harder and more expensive to add than a few extra cm or inches between your walls!

Greg


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:44 am 
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Gregwor wrote:
Quote:
Do you know anyone in Florida who is good? I would need for that person to coordinate / oversee the process.

I personally do not. You could contact some high end studios and ask them who built their places.
Quote:

Quote:
A studio design / construction consultant

There are several studio designers on the forum. Mainly, John Sayers. Contact him. If he can't do it, he could recommend others.
Quote:

Quote:
Honestly not sure if I know how to use the calculator.

I included notes telling what line is what.

There is a spot you can enter your surface density of your wall material.
There is a spot where you tell how thick your wood studs are (2x4 or 2x8 or 2x10, or you enter "0" for walls such as concrete).
There is a spot where you enter how far apart these walls will be.

That's it.


Quote:
There is not going to be any super loud neighbors. These places are just retail stores in strip malls. And if there were super loud neighbors that literally overcame my "soundproofed" space, they would be the ones having to move.

Okay, so you really need to keep sound from leaving your space. If the walls are just drywall, chances are they used cheap "ultralight" 1/2" drywall. That means you will have a lot of work to do beefing up the super light drywall on their side of the wall by adding 2 or more layers of 5/8" drywall from YOUR side. That means cutting strips of drywall and putting them against the back side of the existing drywall. You hold that drywall in place using cleats.

Quote:
Most of the spaces tend to be about 20' wide, which is not a lot to work with, but there are some that are wider, here and there. At 20', if I have to knock off 2' on either side for the wall system, it would be down to 16' wide, which I think that would be a bit narrow for my liking. So I guess I'll probably need to find one that's wider. Most of them are plenty long. I guess I'd like about 1500 square feet, but I may have to do with less.

How many rooms will your place have? A control room needs to be at least 20 square meters. A live room typically needs to be quite a bit larger than that. 16' wide isn't too bad. I also doubt your need 24" of wall to achieve the level of isolation you require.


Quote:
I'm trying to at least guesstimate how much I will lose to the wall system so I know what will work at a "minimum" ?????

The minimum gap between your two leaves drywall is 4". You won't get enough isolation for your needs with that size though! Let's put it this way:
The existing diving wall is at least a 2x4 which is 3.5" thick. The inner leaf wall you will build will be the same. So, your MSM cavity is already going to be 7". However, they need to be apart from one another to prevent flanking. So, even if you put an extra inch between them, you're at 8". Let's assume you're on a budget and don't want to go overboard with materials and labour. You will use two layers of 5/8" drywall. Your MSM cavity will have insulation in it.
Attachment:
1%22 MSM.png


Greg



I can' figure out how the quotes scheme works on this site. So I respond here to all of the above.

I was thinking of the designer also coordinating the construction.

I just don't understand what everything means, and when I try to input values it doesn't work. I click on the field and it goes blank and highlights, but it will not take any input.


maybe just one big room. but I may cut it into a control room and live room.

I just don't understand the terminology of some of what you are saying and I don't understand where and when space goes between walls and how much. Is there just a picture or diagram of the way its built, showing what goes where.

Also, its looking like doing anything to the ceiling may be problematic so I don't know if one could get away with not using a "ceiling within the ceiling" strategy or not.



audion


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