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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:59 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Florida USA
Gregwor wrote:
Also, I thought you might find these images useful: (they're from the Wyle WR 73-5R document if you're curious and want to read that beast of a document)
Attachment:
Increasing Panel Spacing.png

Attachment:
Increasing Panel Mass.png

This basically shows that mass on your leaves is more beneficial than the gap. However, mass is harder and more expensive to add than a few extra cm or inches between your walls!

Greg



Thanks. The explanation is more helpful than the image, because I don't really understand the image, to be honest.

I'm kind of just looking for plain English layman's explanation. I do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now. :)



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:47 am 
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I can' figure out how the quotes scheme works on this site.

Select any text you wish to quote, copy it (control C or command C on a mac), then go to your message body, click the quote button and paste in the text.

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I was thinking of the designer also coordinating the construction.

Any designer can give plans to any contractors. It is just advisable to hire contractors that grasp the attention to detail required to successfully build a studio. With the internet and FaceTime, it's possible for the designer to relay techniques and even inspect work remotely from anywhere.... even space if for some reason the designer was an astronaut :lol:

Quote:
I just don't understand what everything means, and when I try to input values it doesn't work. I click on the field and it goes blank and highlights, but it will not take any input.

I think that's because you're viewing it in preview mode. You would have to click the link and "open with google sheets" or download it and open it with Microsoft Excel -- if you own that program.

Here is a picture to show you where the "open with google sheets" button is at the top of the screen:
Attachment:
TL Screenshot.png


Quote:
The explanation is more helpful than the image, because I don't really understand the image, to be honest.

I'm working on a version 2 what will be easier to use and comprehend. I'm just not super good with Excel so I'm having troubles finding solutions for what I want to achieve with it.

Quote:
I'm kind of just looking for plain English layman's explanation. I do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now.

Well hopefully we've answered your questions enough to help you find a suitable location. This forum exists to answer questions like yours, but also has all of the information needed to guide you to build your dream studio. With that said, if you "do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now", once you find a location, I'd suggest you hire a designer rather than taking up our valuable time on the forum. You never mentioned your budget, but a designer will not be cheap. I'm talking tens of thousands of dollars here.

Quote:
maybe just one big room. but I may cut it into a control room and live room.

You cannot have one big room that functions as both a live room AND a control room. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. I won't go in to detail why because you've stated that you don't have the time or inclination to learn about it. So just take my word for it and know that you'll need two separate rooms.

Quote:
I just don't understand the terminology of some of what you are saying and I don't understand where and when space goes between walls and how much. Is there just a picture or diagram of the way its built, showing what goes where.

Here, I quickly drew this up for you to show you. It's 2 layers of 5/8" drywall attached to a 2x4 wooden stud wall. The distance between the walls is what you've been asking about. The distance in my example is arbitrary.
Attachment:
MSM.png


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Also, its looking like doing anything to the ceiling may be problematic so I don't know if one could get away with not using a "ceiling within the ceiling" strategy or not.

You CANNOT achieve the levels of isolation you require without having a fully decoupled ceiling (meaning your inner leaf, inner room, ceiling sitting only on the inner room walls and not touching anywhere else).

Where were you told that you cannot have such a ceiling construction? As far as I know, there is no law against it anywhere in the world.

Greg


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Well hopefully we've answered your questions enough to help you find a suitable location. This forum exists to answer questions like yours, but also has all of the information needed to guide you to build your dream studio. With that said, if you "do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now", once you find a location, I'd suggest you hire a designer rather than taking up our valuable time on the forum. You never mentioned your budget, but a designer will not be cheap. I'm talking tens of thousands of dollars here.


Oh, I appreciate all the info. When I said I don't have the time or inclination I did not mean the info isn't useful at all, and I was not being snarky. Its just that I am not dumb enough to try to learn something on the fly, gambling with my own place, when that thing probably takes years of experience to really get good at. Definitely don't want to waste any time, yours or mine. To be fair, I did ask a really simple, narrowly drawn question and did not intend to get anyone to have to go to a lot of effort for a response. To also be fair, I did get the $64.00 response to my two bit question. It was just a longer process getting to the answers than I was envisioning. Good of you to provide so much info.

I think I said early on that I was looking for a consultant. I would prefer one in this area, for obvious reasons. As to price, I've been told much less than what you mentioned. I know we had a prestigious architect draw up plans for a 5000 sq. ft. luxury home we had built, and that cost about $1,500.00 a few years back, so I doubt I'll get hit with a quote for tens of thousands of dollars to draw up a plan for 4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]. This is not exactly an elaborate setup, although I understand your point that it should be done properly to work.

Quote:
You cannot have one big room that functions as both a live room AND a control room. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. I won't go in to detail wh
Quote:
y because you've stated that you don't have the time or inclination to learn about it. So just take my word for it and know that you'll need two separate rooms.


Well, I disagree with all of that, and I disagree based on decades of experience. I have done a bunch of good work in one-room setups. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth. In my opinion what you appear to be saying flies in the face of experience, and even common knowledge. I like having two separate rooms [or many separate rooms, for that matter], but it is not a requirement for quality work. For a "real world", and high-end, example, take a look at Peter Gabriels studio.http://realworldstudios.com/studios/big-room/ When I was in L.A. there was a really cool one-room studio in Venice with an amazing 80 series Neve, and just an enormous amount of outboard, all in one giant space with vaulted ceiling. Got great sounds there. Anyhow, I am not here to argue with you, I understand your viewpoint, and you are certainly entitled to hold it. You're not alone, and who doesn't love a beautiful, elaborate studio?

Quote:
Here, I quickly drew this up for you to show you. It's 2 layers of 5/8" drywall attached to a 2x4 wooden stud wall. The distance between the walls is what you've been asking about. The distance in my example is arbitrary.


This looks like two walls that would be built in addition to the existing wall? I am asking what is the total distance, from the existing walls, of the new wall[s] and the space between the existing wall and the new wall.

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Where were you told that you cannot have such a ceiling construction? As far as I know, there is no law against it anywhere in the world.


I don't know that there is any law against it. I just don't know if the owner of the building will allow it, especially if it disrupts or "breaks" existing stuff [electrical, a.c., whatever]. I have no idea. I guess the issue of whether or not it is absolutely necessary would depend on what the consultant finds. It doesn't really bear on the original question though, which just had to do with how much floor space is going to be lost to the new walls.

Greg, thanks for your time and effort with all this. Its a pleasure.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:51 am 
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I know we had a prestigious architect draw up plans for a 5000 sq. ft. luxury home we had built, and that cost about $1,500.00 a few years back, so I doubt I'll get hit with a quote for tens of thousands of dollars to draw up a plan for 4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe].

The difference here is that a studio isn't just "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]". There is a TON of math involved. There are HVAC designs that are far from common place that require a ton of math. I won't bother going into more detail, but I doubt your architect was considering incident angles of different gas flow resistivity materials. Feel free to contact some REAL studio designers, present your desires to them and see what they say. Heck, I can design you a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]" room for free in about 10 minutes if you really want me to, but it will be just that. I just designed you 2 walls in about 2 minutes without a mouse (which in SketchUp makes it 10 times harder).

Also, I'm impressed with the price your architect charged for that size of home. For a home half that size, they usually charge $5000 where I live.

Quote:
Well, I disagree with all of that, and I disagree based on decades of experience. I have done a bunch of good work in one-room setups. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth. In my opinion what you appear to be saying flies in the face of experience, and even common knowledge. I like having two separate rooms [or many separate rooms, for that matter], but it is not a requirement for quality work.

Science disagrees with you. But if you're clearly not trusting us here at the forum when we present images, scientific equations and real figures to you. I'm sorry if I sound snarky, but I am. When it's been proven that gravity exists, you don't just disagree with it.

Okay, in your defense, I'm not say you CANNOT record and mix in one room. I'm saying that a live room has very different requirements and characteristics to a mixing room. If you record in a purpose built listening room, your tracks will not sound amazing. If you mix or master in a live room, your mix will not sound amazing. The time domain of either does not jive well with the other's purpose.

Quote:
This looks like two walls that would be built in addition to the existing wall?

No. This is the entire wall assembly. MSM = Mass Spring Mass. The mass is the drywall. The spring is the space between the pieces of drywall. The only thing I didn't include in the picture (for visual representation reasons) was the insulation. The entire cavity will be filled with insulation. Proper insulation that will work with the frequency at which your MSM cavity is tuned (do you think your achitect who designed your house thought about every wall cavity like this?)

Quote:
I don't know that there is any law against it. I just don't know if the owner of the building will allow it, especially if it disrupts or "breaks" existing stuff [electrical, a.c., whatever].

In any commercial location, you can do whatever you want with the space while you lease it. As long as you put it back to "ground zero" so to speak after your lease runs out, you're fine. Think about a tanning bed business. Do you think they are able to run all of those beds with existing power in the space when they arrived? Kitchens would have to run new ventilation and fire suppression systems. Almost every business has to jack hammer up concrete to run new plumbing for sinks or bathrooms. I'm sure you will be allowed to run your own ventilation system and have an independent ceiling.

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I have no idea. I guess the issue of whether or not it is absolutely necessary would depend on what the consultant finds.

If your consultant tells you that you do NOT require a fully decoupled ceiling, then fire him. That, or get him to provide you with the science and math that proves his conclusion. After that, post his response on the forum so we can see that he has proven physics wrong.

Quote:
It doesn't really bear on the original question though, which just had to do with how much floor space is going to be lost to the new walls

From a 2D perspective, I've answered your question. From a 3D perspective, the ceiling is very important. If you find a space that only has 8 foot tall ceilings, heck 10 foot ceilings even!, you will be pretty discouraged when you see your ceiling height take a nose dive towards the floor after you build a decoupled ceiling. Remember I said earlier in your thread that the wider or longer, depending on which way your joists run, the deeper your LVL studs will have to be in order to carry the load.

Quote:
Greg, thanks for your time and effort with all this. Its a pleasure.

Everyone answering questions on the forum here just want your project to be safe and turn out as expected. I hope we've helped. Good luck finding a local studio designer and crew to build your space. I honestly hope it turns out great. Please share design and progress pictures as that is what we all enjoy seeing. Until then, cheers!

Greg

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:29 am 
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When I said I don't have the time or inclination I did not mean the info isn't useful at all, and I was not being snarky. Its just that I am not dumb enough to try to learn something on the fly, gambling with my own place, when that thing probably takes years of experience to really get good at.
Realistically, it takes about 3 to 6 months to learn the basics of acoustics to the point where it is possible to design a studio, then another 3 to 6 months to learn how to actually design a studio (in terms of structures, materials, HVAC theory, etc), then about 3 to 6 months to actually do the design in something like SketchUp. If you don't have the time and inclination to do all of that yourself, then indeed the only other way to get a workable design is hire a designer with a proven track record to do it for you. The actual cost for the designer could vary over a broad range, depending on what part of the design you need him to do.

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prestigious architect draw up plans for a 5000 sq. ft. luxury home we had built, and that cost about $1,500.00 a few years back,
Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Prestigious architects who design luxury homes do not charge 30 cents per square foot. More like ten times that. At the very low end, you might find a "not very prestigious architect" for maybe US$ 1.50 per square foot, but a big name guy doing a luxury home would be more like US$ 5.00 per square foot. And that's just an architect, not a specialized guy, such as a acoustic designer.

That said, a studio design probably won't cost you as much as Greg suggested, except in the most extreme cases for very high end, very large, commercial studios. Home studio designs are usually a lot less than that.

Quote:
so I doubt I'll get hit with a quote for tens of thousands of dollars to draw up a plan for 4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe].
You are right: that would not be a studio design, just a very basic isolation design, so it would not cost tens of thousands of dollars. Greg probably assumed you were talking about actual studio design, which is very, very different from just designing a simple isolation system. Of course, the isolation design has an effect on the internal studio acoustics, so it is better to hire the same guy to do BOTH the isolation design AND ALSO the studio design. It just makes sense to do that. They do go together, since decisions made in the isolation system can also affect the final acoustic response of the finished studio. You really should consider hiring the same guy to do both.

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This is not exactly an elaborate setup, although I understand your point that it should be done properly to work.
Actually, it is! You might not see it that way, but from the point of view of those of us who have some experience in actually designing studios, what you are talking about is far more complex than you think. Designing a control room that meets ITU BS.1116-3 (the spec for all critical listening rooms), or EBU Tech-3276 (another similar spec), or the Genelc spec, or the Dolby spec, or any other spec that is commonly used as the basis for designing a control room, is not an easy task. Here's one such room: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 . And here's another, that is currently in the final stages of tuning: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21368 . But then to also make that room have variable acoustics, such that it can be used as a live room for tracking as well, is an even taller order. So yes, it is an elaborate setup, if you want it done right, to accepted standards. Of course, if you just want mediocre results, and don't care too much about quality, then this is a moot point. In that case, you don't need a design at all! Just throw up some mattresses and carpets on the walls, stick some egg crates on the ceiling, and you'll be fine! :) But if you do want your place to be the best it can be, see my signature, below...

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Well, I disagree with all of that, and I disagree based on decades of experience. I have done a bunch of good work in one-room setups. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth. In my opinion what you appear to be saying flies in the face of experience, and even common knowledge.
Well, I in turn will have to disagree with that: If what you say were true, then high-end studios would not bother to spend large sums of money to design, build and treat their studios to perfection, and big-name producers, artists and bands would not pay top-dollar to use those facilities. If what you say were true, then Abbey Road, Blackbird, Metropolis, Galaxy, Power Station, Capitol, Electric Lady, Conway, and all the others would be out of business, since nobody would go there. Yet they exist, and are fully booked (try booking a session in Abbey Road any time soon...) If what you say were true, people like John Sayers and myself would be out of a job, since nobody would need to get their studios designed. Yet I'm pretty much booked solid the year round, and I'm pretty sure John is too.

Quote:
For a "real world", and high-end, example, take a look at Peter Gabriels studio.
You might want to check your facts better! From an article on that studio: "The Big Room is designed to be one large collaborative recording space, without dividing walls and also houses two isolation booths. Adjoining the Big Room and within the old mill building is the Wood Room. This room features a more lively acoustic and a booth, mezzanine floor and movable acoustic screens." So it's a five-room studio, not a single room studio, with a control room that contains two booths, plus a live room that contains yet another boot, and the Big Room was specifically "DESIGNED" to work as both a control room and a tracking room, and even then the live room has variable acoustics...

Quote:
there was a really cool one-room studio in Venice with an amazing 80 series Neve, and just an enormous amount of outboard,
From the same argument as you seem to be making, I could very well say that there is never any need for such a console, or the outboard gear, since ""people have done a bunch of good work on small compact consoles. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth". So nobody needs a Neve or outboard boxes to produce great work... :) And yet, the same big-name studios that spend big money on getting their acoustics right, also tend to spend more big money on high-end consoles, speakers, mics, speakers and such. Why use a U47, when you can get the "same" result with an SM-58? Why spends thousands on speakers, when you can master on headphones "real good"?

I guess it's a matter of perspective: some people want the best quality they can afford. For other people, quality just isn't that important, and "that'll do" is just fine.

Quote:
It doesn't really bear on the original question though, which just had to do with how much floor space is going to be lost to the new walls.
Let me illustrate this a different way: you are an experienced producer, so what would you do if somebody came along and asked: "I wrote a song: how many musicians do you think I need to produce it?". And that's all he said. Every time you asked him more about the song, such as the genre, style, arrangement, target audience, etc., the only thing he would tell you is that it's a great song, and he wants to sing it, and he has a lot of experience singing songs, and that all he really wants to know from you, is how may musicians he needs. You explain to him that there's no simple answer to his question, since his song might need a full symphony orchestra with a full choir, or it might just need one guy on a kazoo, but instead of telling you what you NEED to know in order to give him a valid answer, he just keeps on telling you that he disagrees with you, as he's sung many good songs before, and that you really don't need to know how the song goes, or what the rhythm is, or even if it is only vocals, only instrumental, or both! Every time you ask him for more info, so you can try to help him and figure out what musicians he really will need, he instead tells you that Peter Gabriel once recorded a song without saying anything to his producer about the genre or what the song was about, and it was well accepted. And he also tells you that you are wrong to want to know about the song, because there are many other songwriters that have recorded stuff very nicely without telling anybody about their song.... You keep on trying, but you just can't seem to get through to the guy about WHY you need to know more about his song in order to answer his question. So in the end, you decide that the only thing you can actually do is tell him: "Look, the best I can say, considering that you won't tell me enough about our song to give you REAL answer, is that you might need 1 musician, and you might need a hundred. Some typical average contemporary bands have 4 members, some have 20. That's as close as I can get, and I'm just guessing, because you won't tell me enough about your song!"

So, in the same spirit, I'll answer your question: How thick does an isolation wall have to be, in total? "Look, the best I can say, is that it might be as little as 6 inches, and it might be as much as four feet. Some typical average home studio walls are 8 inches thick, in total, while others are 15 inches thick. That's about as close as anyone can guess, under the circumstances, because you won't tell me enough about your studio!".

I think there's not much more that I can say! Until you actually have a real-world scenario to show us, we can't be of more help, I think.

Quote:
For a home half that size, they usually charge $5000 where I live.
At least! That would be a typical mid-range house by a mid-range architect. A big name architect doing a luxury home would likely be twice that. Plus expenses.

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:34 am 
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The difference here is that a studio isn't just "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]". There is a TON of math involved. There are HVAC designs that are far from common place that require a ton of math. I won't bother going into more detail, but I doubt your architect was considering incident angles of different gas flow resistivity materials. Feel free to contact some REAL studio designers, present your desires to them and see what they say. Heck, I can design you a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]" room for free in about 10 minutes if you really want me to, but it will be just that. I just designed you 2 walls in about 2 minutes without a mouse (which in SketchUp makes it 10 times harder).

Also, I'm impressed with the price your architect charged for that size of home. For a home half that size, they usually charge $5000 where I live.


You are acting like I am going to do a full on top shelf studio buildout. I think I made it clear that I am just trying to get my stuff out of storage and into a space where I can hook it up and get it working. If I want to work in a really tricked out studio, I know where they are and how to rent one. I don't think I will be reworking the air conditioning system, unless it rattles or something awful. Otherwise, its just dither. :)

Yeah, if you can design me a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe] room" for free in about 10 minutes, that would be great! That will probably be just fine for me!

Quote:
Science disagrees with you. But if you're clearly not trusting us here at the forum when we present images, scientific equations and real figures to you. I'm sorry if I sound snarky, but I am. When it's been proven that gravity exists, you don't just disagree with it.

Okay, in your defense, I'm not say you CANNOT record and mix in one room. I'm saying that a live room has very different requirements and characteristics to a mixing room. If you record in a purpose built listening room, your tracks will not sound amazing. If you mix or master in a live room, your mix will not sound amazing. The time domain of either does not jive well with the other's purpose.


O.K., well then f**k science because I am an artist. Break rules, make music.

You are trying to say that my tracks will not sound "amazing", and / or my mix will not sound "amazing". You have no idea what my abilities are, so why would you speak in absolutes like that? It sounds mean, disrespectful, and condescending. I don't mind if you say that you personally think I will have an easier time getting good results if I do it your way, but you are not in a position to say that my work won't sound "amazing", or that it will somehow suffer unless I do what you say. That's what I dislike about all these internet chat rooms.

Quote:
No. This is the entire wall assembly. MSM = Mass Spring Mass. The mass is the drywall. The spring is the space between the pieces of drywall. The only thing I didn't include in the picture (for visual representation reasons) was the insulation. The entire cavity will be filled with insulation. Proper insulation that will work with the frequency at which your MSM cavity is tuned (do you think your achitect who designed your house thought about every wall cavity like this?)


So where is the pre-existing wall in your drawing?

Quote:
In any commercial location, you can do whatever you want with the space while you lease it. As long as you put it back to "ground zero" so to speak after your lease runs out, you're fine. Think about a tanning bed business. Do you think they are able to run all of those beds with existing power in the space when they arrived? Kitchens would have to run new ventilation and fire suppression systems. Almost every business has to jack hammer up concrete to run new plumbing for sinks or bathrooms. I'm sure you will be allowed to run your own ventilation system and have an independent ceiling.


Not sure what you are trying to prove, but it seems to me that, as a practical matter, no commercial property owner has to rent to anyone they don't want to rent to. They can just say to themselves, "we don't want a recording studio in our building", or they can make the lease requirements so onerous that it becomes a non-starter.

Quote:
If your consultant tells you that you do NOT require a fully decoupled ceiling, then fire him. That, or get him to provide you with the science and math that proves his conclusion. After that, post his response on the forum so we can see that he has proven physics wrong.


Oh, sure.

Quote:
From a 2D perspective, I've answered your question. From a 3D perspective, the ceiling is very important. If you find a space that only has 8 foot tall ceilings, heck 10 foot ceilings even!, you will be pretty discouraged when you see your ceiling height take a nose dive towards the floor after you build a decoupled ceiling. Remember I said earlier in your thread that the wider or longer, depending on which way your joists run, the deeper your LVL studs will have to be in order to carry the load.


What's an LVL stud? I wish you would stop saying that I will be discouraged.

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It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.


WTF?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:48 pm 
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You are acting like I am going to do a full on top shelf studio buildout.

As Stuart mentioned, when I said a design by a top studio designer would cost tens of thousands, I was referring to a full on commercial studio. Most usually charge by the square foot.

As for your quote of what I wrote, no. Everything I wrote there is what would be required for YOUR build. If you want to achieve the isolation it sounds like you require (you recording drums right next to other businesses sharing the same walls and mechanical), you WILL need to consider all of the things I wrote.

Quote:
I think I made it clear that I am just trying to get my stuff out of storage and into a space where I can hook it up and get it working. If I want to work in a really tricked out studio, I know where they are and how to rent one.

If you don't want to take our isolation advice seriously, I would maybe consider renting a building that isn't attached to other businesses and is far enough away from other people that you do not have to worry about transmission loss levels.

Quote:
I don't think I will be reworking the air conditioning system, unless it rattles or something awful. Otherwise, its just dither. :)

Dithering sounds a lot different than HVAC noise, but sure.

Quote:
Yeah, if you can design me a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe] room" for free in about 10 minutes, that would be great! That will probably be just fine for me!

I can do that for you, but I need to know dimensions of the existing space, how big you want rooms, where doors go, where windows go, required transmission loss values, and outer leaf materials.

Quote:
O.K., well then f**k science because I am an artist. Break rules, make music.

"Party on Wayne!" --- Wayne's Word

Quote:
You are trying to say that my tracks will not sound "amazing", and / or my mix will not sound "amazing". You have no idea what my abilities are, so why would you speak in absolutes like that? It sounds mean, disrespectful, and condescending. I don't mind if you say that you personally think I will have an easier time getting good results if I do it your way, but you are not in a position to say that my work won't sound "amazing", or that it will somehow suffer unless I do what you say. That's what I dislike about all these internet chat rooms.

I'm saying that if you were to put up a room microphone on a drum kit in a poorly designed and acoustically poor room, it would not sound "amazing" compared to one designed by John Sayers.
I'm also saying that your mix would translate better if you mixed in a control room designed by John Sayers than a poorly designed, acoustically poor LIVE room. Sure, with a ton of "checking the mix in the car" and a lot of time you could get a mix that sounds amazing. But unless your room meets the specs of a proper listening room, you will struggle to get there, no matter how good you are at your job.

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So where is the pre-existing wall in your drawing?

It would be either one of the walls and would be referred to as the outer leaf. The other would be your inner leaf.

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Not sure what you are trying to prove, but it seems to me that, as a practical matter, no commercial property owner has to rent to anyone they don't want to rent to. They can just say to themselves, "we don't want a recording studio in our building", or they can make the lease requirements so onerous that it becomes a non-starter.

Of course you'd need to have your studio in an appropriate part of your city. Areas of cities are zoned for certain types of businesses. And of course the owner of the building would have to agree to have a recording facility in one of their units. But once the lease is signed, you have a design and you get building permits, you're good to go.

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Oh, sure.

Okay, thanks.

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What's an LVL stud? I wish you would stop saying that I will be discouraged.

Google "LVL stud".

You wouldn't be discouraged having a 6 foot tall ceiling in your all-in-one live/control room?

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WTF?

What are you questioning here? If you actually took the time to read something on this forum, you'd see that countless people started building their studio spaces, failed or realized that they made some major mistakes, then came to the forum, learned how to do it correctly, then ended up with amazing places. It isn't an insult, it's a reality. I'm guilty of it myself. My first studio had a three leaf wall system and I had foam everywhere. Now, here I am trying to help people like you from making the same mistakes myself and many of my colleagues have made.

You wish that I would stop saying that you will be discouraged. Well I wish you would stop assuming we are talking down to you and realize that we are offering sound advice (pun intended). You're more than welcome to ask questions. We will keep answering them as long as you don't keep implying that we are wrong and that we aren't helping you. Your thread has 2 pages worth of answers now. Is there anything else we can help you with before you hire a local studio design consultant?

Greg

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:40 pm 
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I'm done on this thread. There's no point in trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped, and thinks he knows better than people with many years of experience doing this, how to isolate a room and how to make it usable, acoustically. I'm not going to wast my time any more here. There are many threads where people actually do appreciate any help they can get.

- Stuart -

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:01 pm 
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The actual cost for the designer could vary over a broad range, depending on what part of the design you need him to do.


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Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.


Well, you can believe it.

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That said, a studio design probably won't cost you as much as Greg suggested, except in the most extreme cases for very high end, very large, commercial studios. Home studio designs are usually a lot less than that.


No kidding.

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You are right: that would not be a studio design, just a very basic isolation design, so it would not cost tens of thousands of dollars.


Yeah.

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Just throw up some mattresses and carpets on the walls, stick some egg crates on the ceiling, and you'll be fine! :)


Lot of people doing it that way, making it work, and making money. Funny, I know.

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Well, I in turn will have to disagree with that: If what you say were true, then high-end studios would not bother to spend large sums of money to get design build and treat their studios to perfection, and big-name producers, artists ad bands would not pay top-dollar to use those facilities. If what you say were true, then Abbey Road, Blackbird, Metropolis, Galaxy, Power Station, Capitol, Electric Lady, Conway, and all the others would be out of business, since nobody would go there. Yet they exist, and are fully booked (try booking a session in Abbey Road any time soon...) If what you say were true, people like John Sayers and myself would be out of a job, since nobody would need to get their studios designed. Yet I'm pretty much booked solid the year round, and I'm pretty sure John is too.


Well, a lot of places try to play the one-upmanship game and have to spend a lot of money on unnecessary gear and facilities just to try to compete, and to try to reel in the high-paying clients. A lot of artists and producers and such buy into the idea that you have to record in a fancy place to be respected or to get quality work done, or all that, or they just like hanging out in luxurious places. The jig is up, to some extent, and the industry paradigm has obviously shifted, but there are still quite a few real nice rooms doing good work. I love beautiful studios myself. A lot of people would rather work in less extravagant places though, because they can get a better rate and just as good results. I'm glad you're busy.

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"The Big Room is designed to be one large collaborative recording space, without dividing walls


Yes. We all know that Gabriels' place has a bunch of stuff to offer, but the main concept of the place, and the way it is most frequently used [as is stated in their site], is as a big-ass one-room studio for tracking and mixing and all that. They can shoe-horn other rooms into the session if someone wants that, or prefers that, but the place is all about the one-room vibe. There are plenty of one-room facilities. Haven't you ever designed one yet? If not, then get with the program, dude. Its the latest thing! :). All else aside, I respect your preference for multi-room studios. I like them too.


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From the same argument as you seem to be making, I could very well say that there is never any need for such a console, or the outboard gear, since ""people have done a bunch of good work on small compact consoles. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth". So nobody needs a Neve or outboard boxes to produce great work... :) And yet, the same big-name studios that spend big money on getting their acoustics right, also tend to spend more big money on high-end consoles, speakers, mics, speakers and such. Why use a U47, when you can get the "same" result with an SM-58? Why spends thousands on speakers, when you can master on headphones "real good"?

I guess it's a matter of perspective: some people want the best quality they can afford. For other people, quality just isn't that important, and "that'll do" is just fine.


Kind of pointless argument for argument's sake. Good gear in a good space is good. The gear is arguably more important unless you are talking about a really horrible space.

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Let me illustrate this a different way: you are an experienced producer, so what would you do if somebody came along and asked: "I wrote a song: how many musicians do you think I need to produce it?". And that's all he said. Every time you asked him more about the song, such as the genre, style, arrangement, target audience, etc., the only thing he would tell you is that it's a great song, and he wants to sing it, and he has a lot of experience singing songs, and that all he really wants to know from you, is how may musicians he needs. You explain to him that there's no simple answer to his question, since his song might need a full symphony orchestra with a full choir, or it might just need one guy on a kazoo, but instead of telling you what you NEED to know in order to give him a valid answer, he just keeps on telling you that he disagrees with you, as he's sung many good songs before, and that you really don't need to know how the song goes, or what the rhythm is, or even if it is only vocals, only instrumental, or both! Every time you ask him for more info, so you can try to help him and figure out what musicians he really will need, he instead tells you that Peter Gabriel once recorded a song without saying anything to his producer about the genre or what the song was about, and it was well accepted. And he also tells you that you are wrong to want to know about the song, because there are many other songwriters that have recorded stuff very nicely without telling anybody about their song.... You keep on trying, but you just can't seem to get through to the guy about WHY you need to know more about his song in order to answer his question. So in the end, you decide that the only thing you can actually do is tell him: "Look, the best I can say, considering that you won't tell me enough about our song to give you REAL answer, is that you might need 1 musician, and you might need a hundred. Some typical average contemporary bands have 4 members, some have 20. That's as close as I can get, and I'm just guessing, because you won't tell me enough about your song!"

So, in the same spirit, I'll answer your question: How thick does an isolation wall have to be, in total? "Look, the best I can say, is that it might be as little as 6 inches, and it might be as much as four feet. Some typical average home studio walls are 8 inches thick, in total, while others are 15 inches thick. That's about as close as anyone can guess, under the circumstances, because you won't tell me enough about your studio!".

I think there's not much more that I can say! Until you actually have a real-world scenario to show us, we can't be of more help, I think.


That's just word salad. You are conflating things and comparing things that are not at all analogous. Plus, I've told you plenty to get a real answer. There's no need to be pedantic.

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At least! That would be a typical mid-range house by a mid-range architect. A big name architect doing a luxury home would likely be twice that. Plus expenses.


Again, meaningless argument for argument's sake. Plus its ridiculous.


audion


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Soundman2020 wrote:
I'm done on this thread.

- Stuart -



Thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:12 pm 
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I would maybe consider renting a building that isn't attached to other businesses and is far enough away from other people that you do not have to worry about transmission loss levels.


I thought of that already, and that is probably a good way to go with this if such a space is available. Hopefully.

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I'm saying that if you were to put up a room microphone on a drum kit in a poorly designed and acoustically poor room, it would not sound "amazing" compared to one designed by John Sayers.
I'm also saying that your mix would translate better if you mixed in a control room designed by John Sayers than a poorly designed, acoustically poor LIVE room.


Who's talking about an "acoustically poor room"? And maybe I'm just better at engineering and getting good sounds than what you envision. I'm not saying I'm the greatest or anything, but I sure know how to get good sounds. Its not that fussy if you know what works, O.K.?

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You wouldn't be discouraged having a 6 foot tall ceiling in your all-in-one live/control room?


No. Because I would never have a 6 foot ceiling. What makes you think I would do something like that?

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Okay, thanks.


No problem. Just kidding, I would not really post the information about how to defy the laws of physics. There are only a few of us who are currently privy to that information, and we are very selective about who else we provide it to. You would have to undergo the proper "indoctrination ritual" first. Then you would be given an opportunity to prove your worthiness in the punishment chamber. Then the elders would decide. You may find the entire process unpleasant and / or humiliating, and there is no guarantee that the elders would rule in your favor. I would, of course, put in a good word for you. :)

Are you sure you are prepared to receive the information? Its very powerful, and with great power comes great responsibility. You must be very sure. :)



audion


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