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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:59 am 
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Steve, here are some more pictures of the basement window...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:03 am 
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So the question is, how do I plug up this window (Something that I can remove shouldn't be impossible right?...even if it means cutting out the caulk and then recaulking to put back.)

Also, I'd like to try to match the STC of the concrete if that's possible..

And I need to make it with something that won't rot. This weekend, we had a lot of rain, sleet, snow, and wind. I noticed that the other basement window (which does not have a window well) got a bit icey on the inside. However, this window remained pretty dry and not icey. Don't know if that was just luck or what though..


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:47 am 
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Hey Tom,

Here's the official documented statement that the Structural Engineer sent me...

Quote:
The basement is being finished and the ceiling will be sound proofed by adding four layers of 5/8 drywall to the first floor joists. The first floor joists will support the drywall and they consists of pre-engineered I-joists (TJI 130) spaced 24 inches on center spanning approximately 14.5 feet. The floor joists are structurally adequate to support these loading conditions; however, approximately 0.4 inches of deflection can be expected at mid span of the I-joists.


The reason he says "four layers 5/8 drywall" is because I told him I was planning on "beefing up" my mass for my ceiling by putting 2 layers of drywall below the subfloor and 2 layers on RC connected to the ceiling I-joist bottom.

Hopes this helps with your project...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:18 am 
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camistan wrote:
Hey Tom,

Here's the official documented statement that the Structural Engineer sent me...

Quote:
The basement is being finished and the ceiling will be sound proofed by adding four layers of 5/8 drywall to the first floor joists. The first floor joists will support the drywall and they consists of pre-engineered I-joists (TJI 130) spaced 24 inches on center spanning approximately 14.5 feet. The floor joists are structurally adequate to support these loading conditions; however, approximately 0.4 inches of deflection can be expected at mid span of the I-joists.


The reason he says "four layers 5/8 drywall" is because I told him I was planning on "beefing up" my mass for my ceiling by putting 2 layers of drywall below the subfloor and 2 layers on RC connected to the ceiling I-joist bottom.

Hopes this helps with your project...


Excellent! Thanks for remember to get back to me!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:39 am 
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TomM wrote:
So the question is, how do I plug up this window (Something that I can remove shouldn't be impossible right?...even if it means cutting out the caulk and then recaulking to put back.)

Also, I'd like to try to match the STC of the concrete if that's possible..

And I need to make it with something that won't rot. This weekend, we had a lot of rain, sleet, snow, and wind. I noticed that the other basement window (which does not have a window well) got a bit icey on the inside. However, this window remained pretty dry and not icey. Don't know if that was just luck or what though..


Hey Tom, welcome to the fray. Why not just concrete the window space? Remove the window and frame, build a simple form and concrete it up? Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:45 am 
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And also, the other issue... I've been thinking about ways to help the isolation problems that the flex ducts cause WITHOUT building new ducts (which i'm uncomfortable to attempt).

Here is a picture to remind you, and then I'll post my ideas. Sorry the picture is a bit dark...hopefully you can see it to get the idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:51 am 
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Both of these will probably cause some 3 leaf effect... but it's just unavoidable in my situation.

Thoughts on either of these? Any good?

The first is if you were looking down from the ceiling.

The second is looking between the joists..


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:53 am 
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WiseMindsRecordingStudios wrote:
TomM wrote:
So the question is, how do I plug up this window (Something that I can remove shouldn't be impossible right?...even if it means cutting out the caulk and then recaulking to put back.)

Also, I'd like to try to match the STC of the concrete if that's possible..

And I need to make it with something that won't rot. This weekend, we had a lot of rain, sleet, snow, and wind. I noticed that the other basement window (which does not have a window well) got a bit icey on the inside. However, this window remained pretty dry and not icey. Don't know if that was just luck or what though..


Hey Tom, welcome to the fray. Why not just concrete the window space? Remove the window and frame, build a simple form and concrete it up? Just a thought.


Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd like to be able to remove it should I sell the house some day...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:24 am 
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Location: Bay Area, California
here's an idea on the window ... take out the window and frame leaving only the wood. then close up the hole with a combination of wood and gypsum, but leave at least a 3/4 inch recess on the outside.

then attach a couple of layers of building paper (not plastic) and then some stucco wire or some other wire mesh (with a little gap behind) and use mortar to fill in the recess. it will take a few layers. i wouldn't use stucco as it's too coarse to work with easily, it has chunks of sand etc. mortar is easier to work with.

then when you're done paint the surface with some latex exterior paint.

just make sure you attach the wood and gypsum backing from the inside, so it's easy to remove .. then you can just knock a hammer through the mortar to reopen the hole.

don't use plastic because you want any moisture that somehow finds its way in to also be able to find its way out when the weather dries up.

of course, this may not be the right way to do it. but that's what i would do. i worked with mortar on vertical surface on my project and it wasn't that hard. i didnt even use mesh, but i was using mortar on stucco so i thought it would stick ok. and it did.

i would also try and monitor the area for cracks, and if you see any, add another coat of paint to fill the cracks or if they are large, caulk them up.

hope that helps

dan


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:01 am 
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Tom,

From my understanding having the flexduct is not a bad thing. It is certainly better than the plain ol' aluminum/metal ducts because of noise travel concerns. I believe the recommended duct on this site would be Johns Manville Superduct.

I believe that most if not all flexduct is insulated. The flexduct I have has a fiberglass lining around the flexible inner lining itself. This (to some degree) helps in stopping sound transmission and sound bleed in.

I would assume in your ceiling you will be putting something like OC 703, Roxul or the denser "pink stuff" insulation. I would think the insulation in conjunction with the drywall and RC should be sufficient for soundproofing your flexduct.

Remember ALSO that for your SUPPLY air flexduct you want at least two 45 or 90 degree bends from your air handler to your grill/register, or from your supply trunk to your grill/ register. (If you think about it, in most cases you have one 90 degree bend coming out of your trunk and possibly one more before you get to your grill/register)

Looking at the picture you posted you have the potential to put 2 layers of drywall below your subfloor, in between your joists ABOVE your flexduct. From looking at your drawing, you intend to do this anyway in the other joist cavities. It would seem all you have to do is disconnect the flexduct from the grill/register and possibly any supports for the flexduct (although in most cases flexduct can be moved above/around a support or is supported by some type of strap or band that can easily be replaced). You would then move your flexduct temporarily until you "beef up" (2 sheets drywall) between your ceiling joist. The extra drywall above the flexduct will help with sound isolation also.

What I plan on doing is running an elbow from my flexduct down inside one of my wall cavities. The entire cavity will be lined with ductboard. My grill/register will be oversized. The cavity size and ductboard should not restrict any airflow but give a wider velocity area for the air to travel which in return makes for quieter air flow.

Here is an initial post I did about my HVAC concerns. I made some changes since posting this. The responses I got helped out a lot....

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =silencers


Here's info concerning "silencers" which help reduce noise travel...


http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=270

http://www.rewci.com/8siforroduld.html

http://store.oneida-air.com/Merchant2/m ... y_Code=BSS


Here's a post about sound and air travel...


http://www.recording.org/modules.php?na ... t=silencer


Here's another post on HVAC...


http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4106


Hopes this helps...

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Stan


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:13 am 
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Back on 1/3/2006, I wrote:
Quote:
. . . will your city allow you to simply "plug up the window"? I'm pretty certain the builder would not have put it there unless they were required to do so... So I'm going on record here doubting that they'll let you erase it like that.
You (Tom) responded:
Quote:
. . . i'll have to check with the right people... I've spoken to someone that deals with construction and code a lot (but for restaurants ...so this isn't anything official). But he said that the windows are there for ventilation should you need them... but they aren't a requirement. So i'll look into it, but hopefully they are right!

Did you have a chance to look into it? That should be a pretty easy question to get answered by your local building department.

Perhaps a mechanical ventilation system can be used in lieu of the window... :roll:

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"Converting a garage into living space requires a city permit . . . homeowners insurance won't cover a structure that's been changed without a building permit . . ." --Sacramento Bee, May 27, 2006


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:46 pm 
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If you convince the "BRA's" there's no sleeping quarters down there, you may not have to keep that window operable; if that's the case, then I'd cut some rigid EPS foam insulation board to exactly fit the window (including cutouts for the latch, etc - what you're going for here is NO AIR SPACE just insulation, and CLOSED CELL at that) - then, inside the EPS board put regular insulation fill, then 2-3 layers of mass with NO AIR SPACE between them - see the "window plug" thread in the REFERENCE section for more on constructing this type plug.

The foam board will keep the glass from sweating but NOT act as an air gap (more like "light" mass) and it will insulate enough so sweating doesn't happen. Caulk around it before insulating and adding the "plug" -

Since this is concrete, you'll need some lag shields and lag bolts to hold the plug in place, unless you're willing to just lean a heavy board up against it from the inside :?

Ductwork - can you get any pix showing the connections to/from the main duct and the flex? It's starting to look like you will indeed be stuck with some 3-leaf crap, if so maybe your lower drawing but with THREE layers in each place instead of two??!? Steve

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:37 am 
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sharward wrote:
Back on 1/3/2006, I wrote:
Quote:
. . . will your city allow you to simply "plug up the window"? I'm pretty certain the builder would not have put it there unless they were required to do so... So I'm going on record here doubting that they'll let you erase it like that.
You (Tom) responded:
Quote:
. . . i'll have to check with the right people... I've spoken to someone that deals with construction and code a lot (but for restaurants ...so this isn't anything official). But he said that the windows are there for ventilation should you need them... but they aren't a requirement. So i'll look into it, but hopefully they are right!

Did you have a chance to look into it? That should be a pretty easy question to get answered by your local building department.

Perhaps a mechanical ventilation system can be used in lieu of the window... :roll:



Well the person I talked to couldn't exactly tell me... she said, I need to draw it up in a plan with as much detail as possible..

I asked about the electric, and she said I should speak with an electrician to see if that would be OK..

Not much help!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:01 am 
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knightfly wrote:
If you convince the "BRA's" there's no sleeping quarters down there, you may not have to keep that window operable; if that's the case, then I'd cut some rigid EPS foam insulation board to exactly fit the window (including cutouts for the latch, etc - what you're going for here is NO AIR SPACE just insulation, and CLOSED CELL at that) - then, inside the EPS board put regular insulation fill, then 2-3 layers of mass with NO AIR SPACE between them - see the "window plug" thread in the REFERENCE section for more on constructing this type plug.

The foam board will keep the glass from sweating but NOT act as an air gap (more like "light" mass) and it will insulate enough so sweating doesn't happen. Caulk around it before insulating and adding the "plug" -

Since this is concrete, you'll need some lag shields and lag bolts to hold the plug in place, unless you're willing to just lean a heavy board up against it from the inside :?

Ductwork - can you get any pix showing the connections to/from the main duct and the flex? It's starting to look like you will indeed be stuck with some 3-leaf crap, if so maybe your lower drawing but with THREE layers in each place instead of two??!? Steve


Steve, any idea where I can get this EPS board? Anything else similar available at home depot or lowes?

When you say caulk around it... do you mean the window as it is now? to help seal off moisture? Or do you mean around the EPS board?

what kind of mass would you recommend for an outside wall? just pressure treated wood?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:05 am 
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Sounds like you ended up with a receptionist. I've had good luck actually going to the building department and speaking directly to a plan reviewer. Most of the "you can't do that" information I got was from a senior inspector / supervisor.

If you make it clear that you're looking for some definitive "dos" and "don'ts" to facilitate your design that you will then formally submit to them for final approval... You just want to avoid making any assumptions that would totally turn your plan upside down.

Don't give up! 8)

--Keith :mrgreen:

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"Converting a garage into living space requires a city permit . . . homeowners insurance won't cover a structure that's been changed without a building permit . . ." --Sacramento Bee, May 27, 2006


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