John Sayers' Design Forum

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

A World of Experience
Click Here for Information on John's Services
It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:38 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:59 am
Posts: 29
Location: the Netherlands
Over here in the Netherlands it's is not very common to have HVAC in houses, so I do not know anything about it! :?
What do I need for a typical 2 room studio (live/control)? Where do I have to create the ducts/inlets/outlets? :? What about the fan...what type, how big? Do I need gas/water/drain? :oops:

Is there a cheap DIY way to all this? I do not wanne spend a lot of money on this. I'd rather have a hot room that sounds nice...you know :D
Any informative websites to check out?


Thanks,
Erwin


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:42 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Posts: 6975
Location: West Coast, USA
Erwin, as far as I know there is no cheap DIY way to do acceptable air conditioning in a small studio - the least expensive window mount AC units would run about $250-300 US if bought in the US, I'm not sure what they would cost in your area. Besides, those types of units don't lend themselves well to sound proof rooms, because they need to exchange air in order to cool it.

There is another type of unit, known as a "mini split", where the compressor/heat exchanger are outside, and connected through the wall with a pair of tubes that can be up to maybe 40 feet long, to an air handler that mounts inside on the wall. These will, as far as I know, only treat one continuous room area so a 2-room studio would require two. They start at about $900 EACH, and even though they aren't cheap they can be pretty quiet. Here are a couple of links to illustrate -

http://www.mini-split.com/

http://www.mini-split.com/

HTH... Steve

_________________
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:19 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:42 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Henderson County
hey Steve, I Have a Mitsubishi guy coming over to asses my install, seems the only one I can get without a contractor is the Freidrich unit. (That is quiet enuff in my book)

But man for a difference of 32dbA or 22dbA with the unit running, I am willing to spend the extra cash for the extra silence. Will report how it turned out.

Heck that makes the A/C quieter than a new G5 (35dbA)

Bryan Giles


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:54 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Posts: 6975
Location: West Coast, USA
Cool, Bryan - looking forward to your results -

Sorry guise, it was tired and I was late, posted the same link twice - the other one shoulda been this -

https://www.brandairconditioners.com/cg ... l?mv_pc=gg

Steve

_________________
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:59 am
Posts: 29
Location: the Netherlands
Thanks for the info!
Those split systems seem to be cool 8)
How would I use them to also get the oxygen needed for 4 musicians and myself? Can they be combined with some sort of ventilation? Guess I also need separate ducting and a fan for that?

Erwin


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:48 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Posts: 6975
Location: West Coast, USA
Congratulations, you've just discovered the "down" side to the mini splits - I had not seen this aspect mentioned in respect to the mini-splits, but was going to mention it here - you saved me the trouble.

As far as I know (I've not used these) there is no provision for fresh air, they would be kind of like using a window-type unit that is set for Recirculation instead of Fresh air.

That being the case, I would think that it would be almost as cheap to put in a full-fledged central air conditioning system - this would combine functions of fresh air exchange and cooling, probably even heating for some more cash. Finding one with a really low speed setting would make the system run quieter at normal conditions... Steve


Last edited by knightfly on Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:59 am
Posts: 29
Location: the Netherlands
Thanks for your reply Steve! Do you know where can I find info on these "full fledged" systems? Duct sizes, ventilator capacity, costs etc...

Erwin


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:55 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:42 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Henderson County
Call you neighborhood contractor.

I Know up here in Michigan they stopped selling to people who were not licensed contractors.

Before, i could go to the local Furnace or ductwork dealer and get all I needed. I used flex duct instead of metal ducting back in those days.

Home depot still sells the ductwork, but not the furnaces/air compressors/evaporators/air handlers

Bryan Giles


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:59 am
Posts: 29
Location: the Netherlands
hmmm...I think it's gonne cost me some $$$$ after all :(
but I'll give it a try anyway...

Thanks,
Erwin


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:17 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:49 am
Posts: 553
Location: San Francisco
Erwin,

I imagine your nights are usually cool there in the Netherlands, yes? If you had a way of getting that cool night air inside, a very well insulated room could stay cool for the rest of the day, as long as the doors are kept shut and you don't let the sun in.

Typically all the acoustic insulation in a studio makes it very thermally tight as well. Maybe a simple fan ventilation system kept open and running just during the night might be an inexpensive alternative?

Of course, if you have a lot heat producing gear, this approach won't work very well.

Thomas

_________________
Thomas Barefoot
Barefoot Sound


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:59 am
Posts: 29
Location: the Netherlands
You're right! My room is extremely soundproof (100dB inside and below 30dB outside!) It has cost me lots of money but it works just great.
I can record all night if I want to (and I do), while I live in a populated area.
The thermal isolation is also great. It takes a while before heat gets in from the outside. BUT...heat produced inside stays in for a whole week.
Most heat is not produced by gear but by musicians :shock: if you ask me :D

So the biggest issue to me is cooling/fresh air during the day.

Erwin


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:30 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Posts: 6975
Location: West Coast, USA
Do you possibly have an adjacent room outside the studio that is NOT soundproofed and could be fitted with a cheaper, window-type AC unit? If so, it might be possible to build some baffled ductwork (with a quiet "squirrel cage", or Axial, fan) in/out of the studio and that room, and use a window AC set to "fresh air" mode - just a thought... Steve

_________________
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 5:59 am
Posts: 29
Location: the Netherlands
As a matter of fact: next to these two rooms is the outside world!
I could dedicate a small area in one of the rooms to build a tech room (1mx1m) in which I could fit some units(?) that get the air directly from the outside. Is this an option?

Erwin


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:56 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Posts: 6975
Location: West Coast, USA
Maybe something like this?


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:59 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:49 am
Posts: 553
Location: San Francisco
Cool idea Steve.;)

I would also suggest using curved angle sections to reduce turbulence noise. For a given airflow there is a tradeoffs between fan speed and the length and cross sectional area of the duct. Longer narrower ducts require higher fan speeds. In some cases it may be better to use a shorter duct with a lower fan speed because a high fan speed may raise the noise level more than the longer duct attenuates it.

HVAC systems are also excellent candidates for the active cancellation systems I described in the studio design forum! http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 035a0894be A fairly small unit could very effectively prevent low frequency noise from traveling down the duct (like the noise generated by centrifugal fans). A plenum at the other end would attenuate the high frequencies.

Thomas


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Thomas Barefoot
Barefoot Sound


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 20 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group