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The infamous Floating floor Thread
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8134		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  orangenumerik [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  The infamous Floating floor Thread
From what I’ve read recently, there seems to be a lot of peoples that are still lead to think that (wooden)floating floors are the best and only way to go to achive the best results. Even after reading some of the posts here I tought too that was the best way to go, and did build it, only to learn afterward that I probably could have achieved better results by not floating at all. So I think it should be clearly stated in the sticky section all the why’s of it, and why we (as a group) don’t think it’s always the best way to go. Personaly I’d really like to have M.Sayers input on this issue since some of his design involved floated floors.And since he started this whole wonderfull forum of discution after all, seems logic to me that we would all go in the same direction. I am not challenging in any way M.Sayers competence, I think we would all benefit to know why in some circumstance a (wooden) floating floor was a viable option.

And Steve (Knightfly) words of wisdoms on the subject would be great to hear too.

We all know M. Rod Gervais great expertise on the subject, and if someone reading this thread was planning to build a wooden floating floor, get his book first and read it from page 40 (the whole book would be extremely usefull too :wink: ). Then take it from there.

Only for the good of all....

Thanks
Author:  CaptainTaco [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:29 am ]
Post subject: 
I was thinking of building a floating floor. I'm not sure exactly the term floating. I've read where to build a floating floor, they used a rubber base as a spring, and actually had it "float" above the cement floor. I can understand this concept, however, I planned on not using the spring, and just building a wooden floor off the cement.

As in,
Build a frame out of 2 x 4's, or whatever frame wood of choice, insert insulation into the frame, then cover the frame with 1/2 inch thick plywood, and build your walls up from that.

I'm aware that you can get similar, if not exact acoustical results, and separation from not building a floating... or not floating? floor... My reasons are different though.

I plan on building the floor not just for sound, but also for heat. My studio is going to be in a warehouse, with no insulation, and the cement floor will cool whether I have insulation in my studio or not. The fact that the cement floor is around the studio as well, that surrounding cement will cool, and will cool the cement inside of the studio as well. This will cost quite a bit in heating costs over time.

With the insulated wooden floor, The heat will stay in the studio, regardless of what temperature it is outside of the studio.

Another one of my reasons for building the floor is the look. I really don't want my studio to have a cement floor, that would not feel like home to me, and I wish to have the place I'm going to work in for hours on end, to feel like home. Also, when clients come in to record, if all of my floors are cement, it doesn't exactly look professional. Yes, professional studios have cement floors, however, not all of their rooms do, usually it is just one. I'm sure there are exceptions.

So in the end, I feel a floating floor is better for me. But, if you know something I don't, please do share. I don't have Rod's book yet, so I cannot refer to it.



EDIT:


as an edit, I'm curious if anyone knowledgeable can comment on if this is a good idea or not. The studio is still in the design phase, coming along quickly thanks to Kendale :). However, I'd figure I'd ask this before hand anyway.

The floor will span multiple rooms. If i'm not mistaken, having no spring in between the ground and the frame would make the wooden floor act the same as if it was the cement floor beneath it, correct?

If this is the case, the only added acoustical benefit would be the insulation should also act as a bass absorber, although the plywood will reflect most of it back, the very lowest might get through, and the insulation would absorb it?

and last question if anyone wishes to enlighten me, It would be pointless to have separate frames for each room right? Whether it is all one frame/floor, or segregated floors per room, the acoustical isolation will be the same, correct?
Author:  gullfo [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:55 am ]
Post subject: 
my 2¢. when you discover the true cost (money, time, structural work, etc) of a properly floated floor, you think "wow, there must be a cheaper way". with all things, there is, and typically that would be to use wood instead of concrete. and less elaborate spring methods, or less weight because I'm in an attic or cannot change the structure, or something else to reduce to cost to palatable. in some cases, depending on the existing space, isolation requirements, budget, time, available expertise to construct, the decision to go with wood floating floors is probably valid. in other cases, without enough details I suspect more often than not, skipping the additional cost and complexity of floating a floor is probably the better choice unless you fully understand what the tradeoffs are (reading Sharward's thread on this will definitely help).

for example, if I have a solid concrete floor (5" with steel reinforcement) over a hard packed dirt and gravel base, and its 9 or 10 feet under the ground level, surrounded by concrete block walls, then chances are good I'll have minimal flanking issues to the outside through the floor or earth backed walls. I might however have issues with interior flanking if I'm recording loud music or have mechanical equipment co-located which could impact my ability to properly record. maybe then the answer is a floated floor in the live room? or maybe the control room instead (maybe isolating the CR floor is cheaper than the live room and yields the desired result?) maybe "floating" the mechanical equipment is better? maybe the overall level of the flanking is small enough to ignore it?

only proper testing and analysis will determine that you have possible issues and from there what the possible solutions are. I defer to people who know much more on this topic than me but I think it is primarily that assessment and design are situational in nature as to lead to the solution. of course if budget and time are not an issue, then just about anything can be fixed...
Author:  n8nod9it [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:26 am ]
Post subject: 
I went to a buddies studio who had floated his floor over garage concrete. He had meticulously planned and floated it on pucks and rockwool etc... and STILL had major problems in certain frequencies that plagued his recordings. He wishes he didn't spend the extra time and money to float it, as he cannot figure out why it is not performing as supposed to. Its a conundrum for sure unless you know exactly what you are doing or have the engineering proficiency to design away the exact resonances etc you want to avoid.
Author:  CaptainTaco [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Well what I was saying was not using a spring at all, just building a 2x4 frame (no standoffs, just laying the frame right on the cement), much like a wall, and laying 1/2 thick plywood over it, with insulation underneath, to preserve heat, and prevent sound from escaping. Would this affect the acoustical performance of the room? Shouldn't it just act as the cement floor considering the floor isn't actually floated on a spring, it's just lying on the cement?
Author:  rod gervais [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:22 am ]
Post subject: 
CaptainTaco wrote:
Well what I was saying was not using a spring at all, just building a 2x4 frame (no standoffs, just laying the frame right on the cement), much like a wall, and laying 1/2 thick plywood over it, with insulation underneath, to preserve heat, and prevent sound from escaping. Would this affect the acoustical performance of the room? Shouldn't it just act as the cement floor considering the floor isn't actually floated on a spring, it's just lying on the cement?


The answer is "no it shouldn't".

Simple right?

Think about it for a moment - whether it's studs on the floor (joist really) - or studs on shims on the floor - what you are essentialy building is a series of drum heads - and however closely connected to the floor they are determines (along with other things) the center frequency of the drum head - but a drum head you will have none the less.

My opinion is this- if you aren't going o do it right - and that means a design built around 10 Hz - then don't buid it at al - because if it's wrong - you can actually make it amplify certain frequencies - meaning you could be much MUCH worse off with it than without it.

Sincerely,

Rod
Author:  CaptainTaco [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
thanks, nice to hear from such an experienced person.

well that is quite depressing. That doesn't really work for me lol. So there is no way around it without building a floating floor, and building it to specific specs huh. Even if the frame is tight (the joists are close together), it's close to the ground (preferably just a small lift, maybe an inch, and it's well insulated underneath? With a very thick plywood?

I'm assuming that you're going to answer with, it wouldn't be as much amplification of certain frequencies, but it will still act as the drum head stated? How close am I? lol

EDIT:
I was talking with a friend who mentioned actually lying the 5/8 flooring plywood on the actual ground, with a layer of plastic underneath it to prevent moisture coming through. I think that's a bad Idea, but just figured i'd throw it in there.
Author:  sharward [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
When I get a bit of time, I'm going to start a new thread, which I'll call something like "Thinking of building a floating floor? READ THIS FIRST!" and then linking to all the threads here (and elsewhere) that discuss the issue, with a conclusion that states, as Rod so eloquently wrote, it's most likely a no-go for people without A LOT of letters after their names.

And when that happens, I'm gonna' "stickify" it and/or link to it from the Reference Area. :twisted:

--Keith :mrgreen:
Author:  CaptainTaco [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
forgive me, I did do a search for floating floors, but what it brought up were mostly finished floating floors, in which the threads don't really answer my questions.

Again, ok I get it, even close to the floor the flooring will still act as drum heads.

But please, just answer two questions.

1. If there is enough insulation between the flooring plywood, and the cement will this cancel the effect of the "drum head floor"?

and

2. If I were to lay the plywood directly down on the cement, would this yield acceptable results? anything to insulate the room from the cement a little, to take the cold out of the picture during the winter. Plus I could then layer the plywood with hardwood. Would that work?
Author:  rod gervais [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:10 am ]
Post subject: 
CaptainTaco wrote:
forgive me, I did do a search for floating floors, but what it brought up were mostly finished floating floors, in which the threads don't really answer my questions.

Again, ok I get it, even close to the floor the flooring will still act as drum heads.

But please, just answer two questions.

1. If there is enough insulation between the flooring plywood, and the cement will this cancel the effect of the "drum head floor"?

and

2. If I were to lay the plywood directly down on the cement, would this yield acceptable results? anything to insulate the room from the cement a little, to take the cold out of the picture during the winter. Plus I could then layer the plywood with hardwood. Would that work?


Actually,

If you want to take the cold out - you could apply a rigid high density styrofoam sheet (say 1.5" Dow Board- T&G) directly to the concrete - and then install 3/4" T&G plywood above that (assuming that you first applied something like 1" of GYP-CRETE self leveling topping to get yourself out of the problems you have with the uneven existing floor) - above a good quality sealer - then attach the plywood through the insulation directly to the concrete using TAPCON concrete screws.

This would give you the comfort while maintaining the floor as a single leaf.

That would be about an R-7 insulation between you and the concrete deck - plus jst a touch of spongyness so it was easier on your feet.

Sincerely,

Rod
Author:  orangenumerik [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi all

This thread was also posted in the design Forum Here :

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8135

Some might want to take a look, as it got different replies.

A Note for Sharward, making a sticky about floating floor would be a blessing. me think.
Author:  CaptainTaco [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Thank you rod, that sounds amazing, it's exactly what I want. It solves the cosmetics problem too, considering I can put a hardwood floor over the plywood after. I don't have an uneven concrete floor so it shouldn't be a problem

One question though. Would the walls be built on top of the floor? or around it? I'm hopeing on top, this would provide the easiest construction for me.

Also should I use a water seal of some sort on the concrete before hand? or put a layer of plastic down or something?


Thank you for the excellent idea!
Author:  orangenumerik [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Built your walls directly on the concrete (not over the floor) Then built your floor "inside" the room, using Rod's suggestion.

As for the sealer my guess is yes it should need some sort of sealer, but i am not sure about this one and i'd really like to hear about it too.
Author:  CaptainTaco [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:14 am ]
Post subject: 
would I then bracket the walls to the floor or something?

I don't know much about the construction of walls on a flat ground. Is the weight of the ceiling enough to keep the walls flat on the ground, without movement? Or do you need to screw the walls into the concrete as well, to make it structurally sound? sorry for all the questions, especially if they have indeed been answered before.
Author:  rod gervais [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:14 am ]
Post subject: 
CaptainTaco wrote:
would I then bracket the walls to the floor or something?

I don't know much about the construction of walls on a flat ground. Is the weight of the ceiling enough to keep the walls flat on the ground, without movement? Or do you need to screw the walls into the concrete as well, to make it structurally sound? sorry for all the questions, especially if they have indeed been answered before.


you should purchase a book on the basics of carpentry if you have to ask a question like that.

You aren't anywhere near ready to build anything if you don't understand even the most basic construction requirements - and this forum isn't isn't intended to be a trade school - but rather is intended to be abvle to provide more delicate information that evades even some of the best builders.

The Very Efficient Carpenter: Basic Framing for Residential Construction By Larry Haun is a pretty good book to start with - pick it up.

Sincerely,

Rod
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