John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Hello Everyone,

I have read the "READ THIS FIRST" post, perused the site and have read the links in the reference area many times.

I've read "Home Recording Studio - Build It Like the Pros (Malestrom" and the Auralex 101 manuals. (Many times while on the tour van last month)....

I hope I don't miss anything in this post because I value your guys' time!

I'm in Sherman Oaks, CA (Los Angeles County).

I'm wanting to convert my detached 2 car garage and attached room into a 2-room recording studio.

The 2 Car Garage inside dimensions are:

19' 5" wide
19' Deep
8' 5" Tall walls
11' 6". Center pitch

The walls are 2x4s, i'm assuming that the walls are plaster, the outside is stucco.

The attached room inside dimensions are:

19' 6". Deep
11' 10" wide
8' 3" tall wall where attached to garage
7' 0" tall wall away from garage

The walls are 2x4 16" OC, wood siding with stucco on outside. The ceilings joists are 2x4..... and they're about 20" OC..... oy

My plan is to have the Garage area be the Live Room and the attached room be the Control Room.

I want to be able to record drums and/or a full band without annoying the neighbors. Preferably at night as well.... My neighbors are within 30' of the garage.

I produce singer/songwriters and bands and I compose for TV, Film and Radio.

My budget is around $15k. One of my clients is a Licensed general contractor (and talented singer/songwriter), he is going to do the General work on trade for his next album(s). Not including the sub-contractors, I will pay them directly.

Here is my plan:

I want to remove the garage door (i understand and have researched what is and what is not permitted and what it takes to get it permitted). I want to construct a wall in the existing garage door opening. No man door in this new wall. I plan to put a facade on that wall that looks like a garage door. The wall will be left open on the inside of the garage. It will have drywall on the outside and it will be open on the inside. This and the rest of my exterior garage walls will be the outside Leaf. I want to seal all of the air gaps in the exterior walls, add insulation and leave them open faced. I then want to build 4 new walls about 4 inches away from these exterior walls. I want the new interior walls to be open on the inside and filled with insulation. Thus creating the 2nd leaf. I don't plan to use any RCs or Clips. I was thinking about 2 layers of drywall with Green Glue sandwiched between the two layers. (3 layers if you say that it's necessary). The ceiling is a bit of a question still. I don't want my ceiling to be parallel to the floor. So we're talking about doing a coffered ceiling. But it would need to be connected to the roof for structural support. Thoughts on that?

The east garage wall is shared between the original garage and the attached room addition. The room addition is on a new slab. The room addition was built directly on to the garage. It was not done to code..... The roof slants downwards from west to east. (see dimensions above). My console and near fields will be on the east wall of the room so the ceiling gets higher behind me. Back to the aforementioned east wall. I plan to instal a custom framed laminate glass window and a double interlocking man door on the new and the existing East walls. (the walls between the garage and the room). I was thinking that the window would be directly opposite the mixing station because that would be the center of the room. But i know that it's not the best to have a window behind me as I mix. I was thinking that I could have diffusors above and below the window and then hang a thick curtain that i could cover the window with while i was mixing..... Thoughts?

On to the control room. I wasn't necessarily planning on doing double drywall in this room. i was thinking of just doing one layer of 5/8" drywall with insulation. My contractor thought the ceiling would only be able to support insulation and one layer of 1/4" drywall.... would i benefit from RCs on the ceiling? The ceiling is 2x4s over about a 14' span.... they already show a little sag. am I screwed here unless we redo the roof and I incur a huge extra expense?

There is a solid core man door leading into the control room. Then I would have a solid core man door on each wall in between the 2 rooms.

I plan to lay laminate hard wood floors.

Right now i'm not thinking about room treatments. I was thinking about hanging strips of soundboard in between the new garage opening-wall and the inside wall as a bass trap....

I'm still not sure of the best way to do HVAC. My contractor was talking about a Fujitsu system that mounted on the wall with the compressor outside of the building.

Lighting, we were planning on recessed LED lights in the ceiling of the live room and surface mount lighting in control room because of the ceiling (lack of) depth.

I will have the electrician move the current dedicated electrical box that's in the garage. Do i need a new split box? or am i okay just adding breakers on what's existing? It is not shared with the house.

We're going to start construction soon and I wanted to see if I'm on the right track for my needs and constraints.

Thanks guys.

Drew

http://soundcloud.com/drewallsbrook/sets/reel
www.drewallsbrook.com
www.myspace.com/DrewAllsbrook
www.YouTube.com/DrewAllsbrook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX0BNsA6DKE

Anyone?

" My contractor thought the ceiling would only be able to support insulation and one layer of 1/4" drywall.... would i benefit from RCs on the ceiling? The ceiling is 2x4s over about a 14' span..."

You may want to look into the search function with the keywords "beefing up exterior"


And then develop an interior decoupled wall assembly. In order to play at any time you want, you are in much need of more information as you are not there in your thinking...yet:)

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

The room that I'm referring to (with the weak ceiling) is my mixing room in which no instruments will be played.

The room that I wish to play in is a 2 leaf, sealed room within a room.

Brien, it seems that you didn't read my full description.

On the note of beefing up the exterior. Is it recommended for my desired result to add drywall strips (glued, sealed & framed in - so it doesn't become a third middle leaf) in between my live room exterior walls? That is, the exterior existing garage walls?

Well, if I didn't read it, I sure made up a great answer that matched the question

The idea to add mass to the exterior has nothing to do with making or modifying or overcoming a third leaf. It is the development of a "mass/spring/mass" wall assembly. This also applies to the ceiling assembly as well.

You cannot build a partial assembly and expect to play drums anytime you wish. The potential bleed over into the exterior or from the exterior and thru one interior wall to another interior wall is compromised.

So you should also consider adding mass to the existing roof line...directly under the roof sheathing. You will have to get someone on your side of the screen to predict how much weigh you can safely add to achieve this.

The walls will be somewhat easier, if not time consuming. This is all in preparation for a "mass/spring/mass" assembly. I have included a quick sketchup to give ideas about how to overcome the thinking that the interior framing has to be attached to the exterior framing for support. In most cases it does not and should not be attached to the exterior assembly since this reduces your decoupled attempts, adds flanking and reduces the overall isolation that you are attempting to get.


BUT....local code may override this, seismic requirements, etc.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

The reason why it seemed to me that you didn't read my post was because you commented about me playing drums in the room that has the ceiling issue. Maybe I'm just not communicating the situation properly.

The room that that I will be tracking in will be built within the 2 car garage portion. This room will have a 2 leaf system, mass-spring-mass. This mass-spring-mass system also applies to my ceiling/roof. About adding drywall strips, I am referring to adding these strips in between the studs of the exterior garage (live room) wall/leaf. The reason that I mention the third leaf is because if there is an air gap between the drywall strips that I may add and the existing exterior wall and it vibrates.... it can act as a third leaf... I understand the concept of mass-spring-mass. I was simply referring to beefing up the outter leaf by adding more mass.

My question regarding this topic is.... Is it necessary for my application and if done properly (affixed with greenglue, caulked and framed in to avoid creating a third leaf and resonance) how much will I benefit from it?

I'm already planning on a light gauge steel stud frame, with insulation and 2 layers of drywall sandwiches with greenglue. Again, this all still refers to the live room, with drums, in the 2 car garage portion, with the roof that is build to code.

---

separately. the attached room on the garage. the one with the 2x4 ceiling. the one that won't support multiple layers of drywall. the room that i don't plan to track drums in.

I posted the dimensions of this room as well. the ceiling heights are:

8' 3" tall wall where attached to garage
7' 0" tall wall away from garage

If I add an additional wall (2nd leaf) to this room I'm loosing very valuable space. Even if i add 6" to the ceiling (on the inside) I'm down to 6' 6" on the inside. Wow, that's pretty low and I'm pretty sure that would feel pretty small and uncomfortable. I also am working on a budget. I'm trying to ask if it's necessary for me to build a 2 leaf system in the room that i'll be mixing in.

I generally don't monitor that loudly. However, I do do overdubs and scratch vocals in the mix room. If i don't do the 2 leaf system in this room, should I expect more than a 30db bleed to the outside? Obviously that can only be determined by measuring the level of sound on the inside. I'm just trying to get some ideas and feedback.

I can't exactly add more mass to the top of the roof because it can't support the extra weight. I'm guessing at this stage that I may need to redo this roof. which would eat up a good portion of my budget. I'm also hoping to get a TOFT console and more Aurora converters. So the more that I have to spend on things like a roof in my control room the less budget i have for gear....

I'm not building a state of the art studio. However, I am trying my best (within my budget) to build a studio that does a descent job at containing a good-enough portion of the sound that I will make.

In general, i understand the concepts. I'm looking for confirmation or advice as to how they apply to my specific situation.

I would really appreciate some other feedback as well.

Thanks Brien for taking the time to respond and for posting that picture.

"This mass-spring-mass system also applies to my ceiling/roof."


Well,, you have my design which is the only way to achieve this...so it is on you now to assure that this is what you are doing and that you somehow have a better idea than I do about how to get this done.


Thing is, you mention too many times about the walls but you have a ceiling that is going to be an acoustic hole...basically an open window, if it is not addressed. And the want to use metal studs, while there is support that @ 24" centers the TL is good, you will still have two(2) issues to deal with. One is that the metal is not able to support an overhead framed ceiling...and the other is that you require this overhead ceiling,,,a decoupled ceiling.

Granted for 15K. you are not there yet. I assume you have an idea in your head and are trying to find support for that...your ideas are flawed.

What I posted that you referred to as a picture...was nothing short of exactly how you need to approach this project.

You have to decouple the framing /wall assemblies one from the other...there is no other alternative. This three leaf that keeps getting in your way, does not exist, you can build it if you want, but the truth is, it exists in so many areas to begin with, the fear you suggest is based on your lack of understanding...

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

i feel like a guy going into a car lot having saved up to buy a cadillac. i come in with my fixed budget saying i want (relative) luxury and to go 80 mph. and you're saying you're a joke unless you can buy a Maserati and go 120mph. i appreciate your time and feedback. i just went to the Motown museum, some bad ass records were made there, it was not an acoustical or soundproofed dream studio. please work with me on where I'm at.

i understand what you're saying. it still just seems that we're talking details of one room and applying them to the details of the other room.

i'm already planning on having a decoupled ceiling, same mass-spring-mass concept in my live room. the room that doesn't have an angled ceiling, the room that is not the problem. that is, the room that i mention beefing up the exterior. maybe i'm just trying to discuss too many topics at once and they're getting confused. forget that i mentioned the 3rd leaf thing.

i'm not arguing your concepts. they're just not exactly aligned with which room is which.

---

"Thing is, you mention too many times about the walls but you have a ceiling that is going to be an acoustic hole...basically an open window, if it is not addressed."

I'm planning to have decoupled walls and ceiling in my live room. The walls and ceiling will be the inside leaf of the 2 leaf (mass-spring-mass) system. This is the room that i really need to contain sound in.

I'm trying to get the details about the mix room. the room that your diagram represents. i'm trying to figure out my options and what's required. i have multiple options here, i'm trying to get feedback on what is realistic. what i can expect per each scenario.

the reason that i haven't just settled on your idea is because my ceiling with be about 6' tall when i'm done. It will feel like a cave. it will not be a comfortable mixing environment.

because of that reason... i'm trying to explore other possibilities. i know that the best way to soundproof my MIX ROOM is the same way to soundproof my LIVE ROOM. I have the square footage in my live room and i have the need for the most amount of isolation. my mix room is a lot smaller and the ceiling is a lot lower - so if add 4 decoupled walls and 1 decoupled ceiling i'm left with a room that is about 10 deep, 18 feet wide and 6' to 7' tall.

since i'm working on a limited budget.
since i don't have the same isolation requirements as I do in the live room.
since i'm working with a smaller space with a low ceiling.

do i have any other possible options that will suffice for this rooms specific needs?

i've talked with my contractor about adding new joists. i've talked with him about redoing the roof.

should I settle for a 6' ceiling or just give up?

"since i don't have the same isolation requirements as I do in the live room. "

This is a decision you have to make. How important is the control room isolation, how important is the live room isolation...and when the two are working in tandem...how important is it not for one to bleed to the other.

I understand the confinements, but these are the things we have to make evaluations on and try to move forward with the build, given that the existing structure is all that we have to work with.


If I can say a few things that will read like me talking out loud:

In order to get good sound isolation...there are no short-cuts and you will produce four things in this quest.

Mass: You will have materials of substantial density in the attempt to suppress sound vibration.

Decoupling: You will break the path that vibration moves on and that is always the attached framing members, even if it is a wood to metal transition...it is still flanking. To be sure, sound vibration moves faster thru metal than wood so that connection is frowned upon.

Air/Space/Distance: Once the decoupling has been introduced, the distance that you can get the first part of the massed wall assembly, we will call it mass 1, from the second part of the massed wall assembly, called mass 2, the better the transmission loss...the low frequency area that audio engineers struggle with.

Insulation: This is the few points you get from introducing a material that dampens the assembly and the materials involved with the assembly...3-6 points depending on what you may construct.


If you neglect one part to one room in the support that the one room will support the whole...you will not get what you are thinking you will get since this is a system. The system will fail overall according to the weakest point, currently either the ceiling, the dividing wall assembly from the live room to the mix room and/or anything from the exterior to the interior.


"i feel like a guy going into a car lot having saved up to buy a cadillac. i come in with my fixed budget saying i want (relative) luxury and to go 80 mph. and you're saying you're a joke unless you can buy a Maserati and go 120mph."

I do not build junk...I work within at least the perimeters involved, I can adjust my thinking on your money and the structure,,,but I cannot in good faith let you move forward until either I know what you know or you know what I know.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

How much bleed should I expect? The two room will be separated by two walls. The walls will each contain Plexiglas wood framed windows and solid core man doors with proper rubber gaskets and seals... The walls will be single studded with insulation and 2 layers of drywall with greenglue. There will be about a 6" gap between the two walls.

The ceilings of the two rooms will be connecting. But the live room will be a room within a room and technically not touching the mix room at all (except its outer leaf).




Thanks for the recap. I am actually clear on this. I read this over and over again in the Malestrom and other books.

Unless i make a 8' thick solid lead wall that is perfectly decoupled while simultaneously perfectly airtight that happens to be 5 feet away from any other structure that is also insulated to perfection I'm sure i'm screwed. (please don't comment on these details)

My point being, we're working with an existing structure with finite limitations with realistic expectations. I could rip of the roof and build it properly. But then again, I could rip of the whole structure down and build it from scratch. Oh wait, I stated that I have a budget and that I'm trying to get the best results within certain constraints.



this a great point. if the two rooms are separated by 2 decoupled walls, but are connected by the ceilings - is this a big enough weak point to expect my live room to not be isolated?



I've talked to my contractor about sistering the 2x4 ceiling joist beams to make them 4x4. This would allow me to add more mass to the ceiling.

The way that i'm leaning right now is to do 2 layers of drywall sandwiched with green glue in the mix room (walls and ceiling. I know that this is not as preferable or as effective as having two decoupled wall assemblies. My thoughts are this:

The Live Room will be a room within a room, separate decoupled walls, insulation on both insides of the open faced walls and on the existing exterior garage walls and roof. my new ceiling will be load bearing on my new walls. there will be a gap of about 4" between the two walls, or about 12" inches from mass to mass.

My Control Room will be decoupled from the Live Room by the two walls (except for the points of connection on the roof). I will insulate and do two layers of drywall sandwiches with green glue for the walls and ceiling.

I don't want to build separate decoupled walls in my mix room because I'm already working with such a small space and I don't plan to track drums in there. This room will be sealed. I'm shying away from Resilient Channels because of cost and space. If i were to add a decoupled ceiling then I would be down to a 6' tall ceiling. A bit too small for comfort.

I know that this isn't as good as the 2 decoupled wall assembly.

Based on those thoughts. How much of a "weak point" is this mix room for the studio as a whole?

Can you please comment about this specific design based on my constraints?

Based on this plan, can you give suggestions on how to improve?




Last time I checked, a Cadillac is a pretty damn good car, not exactly junk.

"I want to be able to record drums and/or a full band without annoying the neighbors. Preferably at night as well.... My neighbors are within 30' of the garage."

This is the statement that got us on to the road we are on...drums/ full band require as full isolation as possible.



"Thanks for the recap. I am actually clear on this. I read this over and over again in the Malestrom and other books. "

Malestrom seems to line up with torrentz.com. I have a bunch of the books and hundreds of documents people in high places know me...nobody named Malestrom either living or dead exists in this food chain, that isn't a shortcoming on my part.




"The 2 Car Garage inside dimensions are:

19' 5" wide
19' Deep
8' 5" Tall walls
11' 6". Center pitch

The walls are 2x4s, i'm assuming that the walls are plaster, the outside is stucco.

The attached room inside dimensions are:

19' 6". Deep
11' 10" wide
8' 3" tall wall where attached to garage
7' 0" tall wall away from garage

The walls are 2x4 16" OC, wood siding with stucco on outside. The ceilings joists are 2x4..... and they're about 20" OC..... oy

My plan is to have the Garage area be the Live Room and the attached room be the Control Room."


You could help me a lot if you were to draw out your existing footprint based on the existing dimensions and then draw the interior room walls as you see them fitting into this environment. My issue with what you are doing is that you are doing too much in one area and not enough in another. The example might be plexiglass which is not as dense as laminated glass, or even glass of the same thickness.



"Last time I checked, a Cadillac is a pretty damn good car, not exactly junk."

To reiterate: I do not build junk...I work within at least the perimeters involved, I can adjust my thinking on your money and the structure,,,but I cannot in good faith let you move forward until either I know what you know or you know what I know.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

"I've talked to my contractor about sistering the 2x4 ceiling joist beams to make them 4x4. This would allow me to add more mass to the ceiling. "

Missed this. Your contractor is incorrect in this application. The supposed idea is that you reduce the layout, example gratis: from a 24 inch to a 16 inch layout which will allow a longer span with the 16 inch layout.

But, the additional weight of same size material does not reduce the layout and really only adds to the overall deadload/weight of the system.

In order for this type of approach to be effective, the additional framing members must be sized FIRST to be able to make the span with in the known limits of the material as allowed by the lumber manufacturers.


That would mean, if the span is (for example) 13 feet outside of framing to outside of framing, then a 2X8 would be the candidate for this...not a sistering of same size material.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

thanks for your attempted help.

i'm done.

maybe it's my fault, but this seems to be more work than what I'm actually getting out of this.

you repeatedly don't answer my questions yet still have time to defend your own statements.

maybe you're awesome at building studios on your own. i would just suggest developing some people skills.

i would suggest researching the phrase "customer service"

Ok, before you go let me say a few (more) things. I haven't built studios on my own, saving a few but still there were other trades involved...I attempt to help those that will listen and understand that there are either flaws or potential setbacks that need to be addressed, beforehand.

Your idea to play drums of have a live band play when ever you want is a doable idea. The issue is, it is not doable in the current configuration that you purpose.

You made mention of a Cadillac...I think that you think of a 2011 model. My thinking based on my experience is that we are talking about a beat up 1985 model.

To have a room-in-a-room as a live room and then to somehow install a control room that is neither room-in-a-room nor is it a double wall assembly but is in a direct physical relation as to the footprint of this build will not work.

The live room will not be an enclosed double wall assembly since it will have an air cavity breach in the proximity of where-ever the control changes the wall assemblies.

You can do one, or you can do the other, I do not believe you can do both. And that is why I asked for a drawing. Your ideas and a better representation of your space would help me and others to determine where the weak parts are and how to intermingle this build.

To be fair, we haven't even discussed HVAC, the electrical, low voltage, audio cabling, windows and doors, etc.

There are so many things to consider and if you are not willing to open your mind to the idea that there is a good chance that you are reading either the incorrect information or more reasonable, are not giving yourself enough time to understand these concepts that are new to you.

People here can help...but the best help you can give yourself is to admit...maybe you haven't retained as much as you think you have, get passed it, and let us get this thing built with you with whatever compromises there are, and there will be plenty.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.