John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Greetings,

This is a great resource, and I hope to take full advantage!

What started out as a small project with a friend, who was my bass player in a band almost 20 years ago, has turned into a full-fledged obsession! I just finished my first real project (it’s being mastered now, and through the process, I’ve learned I need a better acoustic space to mix and record). I recorded/produced (tried to anyway!) a six-song EP. (More on the type of recording I’ll be doing below.)

It so happens that my growing interest (really a rekindling of an interest, as I was briefly enrolled in a program as a music major/sound recording engineer right out of high school) corresponds with my family’s need to move. We are “housing” my wife’s parents, and have since bought a house with two apartments (called a “double” here), and a “finished” attic. I say “finished” because it is an old living quarters, probably for servants, finished with the original house, built in the early 20th century for the PanAm Expo that was held in Buffalo, New York, USA. It needs work, which for my purposes, is just fine!

My family is very tolerant of the noise associated with recording and mixing, and my wife’s parents do not hear well. (We’re known for awesome food and drink provided during sessions, so you should get the sense this is approved of by the family!) My son is becoming interested in video production, so there is an overlap there as well. I can’t speak for the neighbors, but I don’t anticipate a huge problem (i.e., I’m not too concerned about, nor do I believe I can do much about, isolation, given the limitations of the space (most is double the dry wall on exterior walls I supose); mixing is about the only thing I’ll do late at night, and I’ve moved away from mixing loud anyway).

The music projects that I am interested in working on center around acoustic guitar, although I have a drum set, and several amps to choose from; I’m becoming more interested in synths, digital pianos, etc. In addition to my own material, there are four different individuals I’m working with, and plan to continue to work with in the future; none do heavy metal, sludge/grunge, etc.; there might be a Jazz trio in the future. To get good sound, we have on accession turned things up quite a bit, but there are no regular practices with blaring electric guitars, etc. Regular drum playing and trumpet playing does occur (I need to practice) but my playing is average in volume (and performance!). It’s certainly not John Bonham. (I’ve taken down my studio to move, so I can’t actually measure the sound during mixing or performing, and I need to learn how to do all the related measurements anyway.)

So in short, I’m focused on getting the existing rooms sounding as good as possible within my budget for recording and mixing; again, I can’t really imagine doing much for isolation (I laughed at the intro warning against posting about floating floors in attics; at least I figured that was a no-go before joining!). I’ve regularly lurked on Gearslutz, and purchased a few books (read most of them too!) including Gervais’ book on building home recording studios, although admittedly that goes well beyond what suspect I can do. I have also skimmed most of the John Sayer manual, printed up what seems (so far) to be most germane for future study; I’ve played with the Helmholtz calculator too, although I’m certain I don’t really understand it! Of course, I’ve read many things on other sites, but have since found this is the place to go for focused and expert assistance. But in the end, this is all still quite new to me, and I’ve many questions, and would like some feedback.

This space (see pictures and sketches attached: I’m sorry, I just didn’t want to spend days learning Sketchup to produce what I could do by hand within an few hours) has a bathroom (which I will keep), two small sized rooms (10x12 and 10x14, both of which have angled ceilings on each end, and each has a closet that runs the length of the room), a “main” room that is 10x12, and a stairwell that leads to the attic. Ceilings are 7 feet high, except for the stairwell, where the height fluctuates with the stairs, in addition to the angled ceiling. All walls are original plaster and lathing or old gypsum board (some of it is damage from previous roof leak, since fixed, and so these will be replaced, or modified per suggestions); all floors are original wood; doors are original wood. All windows will be replaced, as they are rotted (I do not wish to modify the number and size of windows, as we want to keep the to the original architecture of the exterior of the house as much as possible). (Window replacement cost is NOT part of my studio budget.) There is electric in the attic with lights, but based on what I’ve read, I should bring up two fresh, separate 20amp lines, one for the control room, the other for the live room (following Gervais directions). I don’t have an estimate as to how much this will cost, and I might have someone who can do it for free). There are also steam heaters (radiators), all of which won’t be needed if I remove a wall; but relocating them is probably not that easy, and thus not an option, given limited access to the pipes.

My main question is with respect to how best to use, and treat, the existing space. My thought is to remove the wall between the two rooms and possibly eliminate one or both of the long closets, install sliding doors, and use that room to record, and keep the control room in the main room one walks up to (I do have the reality that folks (kids!) will stroll up into the attic, and it won’t work to have them come up during a take!). I do not yet know if the wall between the two rooms is load bearing, but I suspect the beam across the two doors is, and would of course stay with the sliding door design.

One of my questions is how to do the calculations for the rooms, given that the ceilings slope, and given that in what I’m now thinking should be the control room, there is the stairwell, which captures a fair amount square footage (see pictures). I’m also very interested in determining how best to combine an acceptable live room for drums and electric guitar, but make it equally good for vocals? I’m also unsure in what direction to place the console if it remains in the “main” room — engineer facing the stairwell, or facing the two rooms?)

My budget for this aspect of the studio is about $8,000 (U.S.), which includes any and all restructuring, all treatments, electrical work, lighting, painting, etc. (I may have more cash, but those projects have not yet materialized.) It does not include needed repairs to the bathroom or, again, the windows; but does include any electrical work. Also note that I’m pretty handy and have handy friends, so my sense is that I can build the various room treatments, or at least most of them, myself (and of course, this forum will help me figure out how best to do that, I hope!). That is, my sense is given the obvious limitations to the space in general, it is not worth spending a fortune on pre-made treatments that I could make myself, which while not as good, would certainly contribute to a solid recording space. So in short, I have a limited budget, no design as yet, a limited space, but am eager, handy and very willing to listen and learn. This will certainly be better than having a mixing room in a untreated enclosed porch with 10 large windows and a very small room in the basement directly below the that porch, with very limited treatment.

Any suggestions, comments or requests for more information are very welcome!

welcome! nice introduction post. i would take down the closets in each room to expand them and make the longer room the CR and the smaller room the live room. you could also use the area to the left as a spillover area for additional instruments. from a treatment perspective - you might take down the plaster/drywall so you can insulate the rafters, then use isolation clips and hat channel to reapply 2x 5/8" type x drywall. consider a damped membrane floor in the live room, which should then give a reasonable level of isolation from the structure. then in the CR, have your mix desk face the short part of the room so you have the ceiling sloping up. you could put a heavy slider between the rooms for visibility although your back is to that room so maybe just a fixed window would work enough for communication and some heavy drapes to cover during mix down. in the corners - slat resonators would be nice, if not, super-chunk absorbers perhaps with widely space slats to support HF. on the ceilings - first reflection points covered in the CR and scattered in the live room (ceiling too) to keep it lively and balanced. in the overflow space, some absorption on the ceiling and perhaps as "art" will shape the sound and make it usable.

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Glenn

Glenn,

Thanks so much for the quick reply. Of course, I have some questions and clarifications!

1. Are you suggesting that what I’m calling the “main” room (the room that one walks into as they walk up the stairs, the one that has a door to the bathroom, NOT be the control room, and further, that I NOT tear down the wall between the other 10x12 and 10x14 room, and instead take out both closets, effectively making each room 13x12 and 13x14? (I’m inclined to use sliding doors in lieu of window as they will make going between each room much easier, although this is probably more expensive than a simple window).

2. If my understanding of your suggestion is correct, my question is why is this a better design than making one big room out of the two non-main rooms and using the “main” room for the control room? I’m under the impression that bigger is better in terms of sound quality?

3. I am assuming that you are recommending the isolation clips and hat channel for both walls and ceilings, correct? And forgive me, but what is type x drywall?

4. Given that the ceilings slope, how useful would it be to make the side walls nonparallel, or should resonators take care of this, running them across the corners? I’ve seen designs here where an entire wall is a resonator, so why only in the corners, or rather why not observers in the corners and resonators along an entire wall?

5. I’ll have to research it of course, but do you know the typical or rough cost for a damped membrane floor of that size? I’m definitely going to need to research this, but would be best to keep a wood floor surface for the live room, correct? And given that I only have 7ft ceilings to work from, how much loss is acceptable — raised floor and lowered ceilings as a result of the clips and channels — or is that more an issue of comfort for those of us over six feet tall?

I suppose now is the time to learn Sketchup, and post a sample design so that folks can make more specific comments, questions and suggestions. So, do you recommend starting fresh, or working from an already existing studio design from the forums? If the latter, do you know of one that closely matches my situation?

Sorry to have posted so many questions...any response is much appreciated.

maybe i misunderstood - you could use the room by the bathroom and stairs for your control room and open up the entire space between the two rooms (assuming no loading bearing support there) but you should then at least wall up on the stair side and face your desk to the window so you gain some symmetry. on the live rooms - no need to change the asymmetric nature as that is helpful. in the CR on the other hand, you want as much symmetry as you can get. but since you then have stairs, doors, etc. you need to shape things to fit and respond to make it useful. having the big open live room is desirable and while you are losing some space, consider the isolation aspects, you could add the damped membrane floor later or simply create risers for drums and amps and see how it goes.

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Glenn

Glenn,

Thanks again, this looks great — making my wife nervous! I think the platforms are a great idea. And, I am wondering if you have suggestions for the sliding door, considerations, etc?

I never thought of closing off the wall by the stairs to make it more symmetrical; great idea. While there are windows in front of where the desk is, there’s no reason I can’t place an obserber directly over them, correct? Are there specific instructions for covering windows? I won’t be able to build frame for speakers, due to the radiator, but treatment with stands should be good enough, I suppose (maybe I could build around the heater, but that seems risky).

Now, because the rooms are in the attic, when I take down the drywall in the ceiling, I could replace with a hung ceiling, but so as not to lose height, follow the rafters as they go towards the peak. Because I can see how the rafters flow, I doubt the wall is load bearing, since they rise above the drywall ceiling which must be hung some how from supports. So, if you look at the first drawing I submitted above, you’ll see that the roof slopes front to back of the house (not side to side like a colonial). Thus, the live room would have a peak probably about 9ft (possibly 10) in the middle, and a low point at the ends of a little over 4ft. I am assuming based on what I have read that this would be superior to a flat ceiling for the middle part, which would be parallel to the floor (as is now the case, which you can see from the photos). It would also look cool! If that is the case, I also assume I should put an observer of sorts in the peak, correct?

I am also wondering this: because the corners of the live room have limited vertical space before they meet the low ends of the angled ceiling— a little over 4ft — that I could instead run a superchucnk type trap horizontal, along the floor of the shorter walls. There would be only 4ft of wall to put slats along the shorter wall, so I’m thinking it only makes sense to keep them where you have them along the longer walls in the live room.

Thanks so much!

you could add a frame over the window (and radiator below) to add another window seal the frame to the wall and use the "indent" on either side of that for absorption. a smaller window (or set of windows - like 12" wide x 39" high for example) could improve the isolation there and let in plenty of light. then add in absorption round them. yes, speakers on stands at that point. or perhaps soffits if you want to go there. the slider could be a nice 6' wide one or back to back pairing. the super chunks work but consider widely spaced slats to preserve some HF in the LR.

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Glenn

I’ve been working out various details of the construction — far more than I originally thought — and a design issue has emerged.

What if any benefit would be gained by making the ceilings in both room “cathedral” but leaving the collar ties in place? Placing absorbers in the apex of the ceiling? I’ve seem some videos of home studios of similar size that did this, and it seemed work well, and made light installation easy too!

If this is here is benefit — as it seems it would as it would reduce parallel surface between floor and celling and increase overall volume of rooms — how would I build the corner bass traps in the control room, as there would be no straight line where the celling would meet the wall (it would be angled as the celling rises to the top)?

the exposed ties could provide a significant flanking path bypassing your decoupled drywall mass. one option could be to wrap the ties with agglomerated foam and using construction adhesive to add drywall layers on them to increase the mass and somewhat decouple them - this might solve some of that - then again might not...

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Glenn

OK, so based on what I just learned http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16251, I'm wondering if I should leave the narrow closets that now exists between the two rooms that will become one "live" room and the control room. They function, it would seem, if insulated on the inside, to limit what is heard in the control room. Is this an advantage (it certainly would save on labor and materials as I would not tear down these walls) or is it still better to gain the extra 3ft in room width, remove the one closet wall and other wall's plaster and lathing, use clips, hat channel, etc.?

Oh no! I thought it was such a good idea. That seems like it would be more of a risk and effort than it is worth. Glenn, thanks again!

the closets can add additional isolation so long as they are not so small as to function as triple or quad leafs which reduce the isolation - so massive walls on the rooms, lighter-weight walls on the closets - except as needed to form the massive isolation boundary. this will help avoid having them become a negative. removing them can increase the internal volume of the room so that may be beneficial but you might end up using that space for trapping so it won't necessarily add any additional floor space.

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Glenn

Hmmm. Picture number three at the top is an example of the slightly smaller (less deep) closet. They're about 2 1/2 feet wide inside. My thinking for this idea was to leave the inside alone, but for the other side of the closet wall, adjacent to the live room, add insulation, decouple, two layers of dry wall, etc.. But I'd still want to have slats, correct? So, near the ends of the room I'd end up with something like 8 ft in width, as opposed to about 11 with the original design? I'm just not sure.

you would still want the slats. i think the extra space in the rooms would be more valuable than the closets.

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Glenn

Ok, that issue now solved! So here’s my question: I’m unclear how to actually build the resonators as indicated in your draft above.

I’ve searched around and understand the basic construction, but I don’t understand how to implement this in my situation. In particular, how do I build the resonators so that they “meet” in the corner, and can accommodate the slanted celling? The ones on the shorter wall of the live room will be only 4 ft high, and the ones along the long walls will go from about 7 ft to 4 ft. I’m a bit confused as how to ensure the enclosure is sealed, angled in this manner, meets the other resonator in the corner, etc.

And just another quick question: in terms of platforms -- I downloaded a sketchup that I think you designed -- is it OK for the 1x6 in framing boards to touch the floor, or should I add those u shaped rubber things (sorry I can't find their name) that you can attach to the bottom of joists to separate them from main floor?

Thanks for all your help!

PS: happy fathers day -- I'm offered the chance to sit in bed all day and research studios!

like an angled soffit, you'll have to do some measuring but basically you would create a dividing partition in the corner out (say 300mm) on a 45 degree. then frame up along the angles for the ceiling and out to the ends (the slats will be vertical or you can angle them depending on the desired aesthetics) but ultimately they will be varying lengths. i'll try to sketch the idea up later tonight.

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Glenn