John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

welcome! it sounds like a couple of conflicting requirements - isolation and treatment. let's assume you don't need isolation since your budget is not going to be close to getting any significant isolation and treatment. on the treatment side, since you're keeping the bedroom a bedroom, you will need to make some choices - either squeeze in between the bed and the long wall opposite the closest (best symmetry for your room) or put your bed into the corner opposite the door and put the mix desk in front of the window (second best). then research this site for treatments using porous absorbers on first reflection points and ceiling clouds. on the end of the closet where there is space, fill that will insulation. on the windows, heavy drapes which can be bunched up even when closed to maximize absorption. in the live room, keep the carpet off and use some scattered absorbers on the ceiling to break up the floor-ceiling flutter. same window treatment as CR/bedroom.

when you have things arranged, do some acoustic measurements to determine where you need additional absorption.

if you want real isolation, you're going to need to increase your budget especially due to the glass windows and the solid structure which will likely conduct sound very well to other parts of the house.

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Glenn

Please some ideas, I could increase my budget with time, I just need keep on working in my studio.

Could I start working with the isolation when I am done with the acoustic treatment side? Or do they complement each other.?

I am very sorry for my ignorance, I am starting to learn a lot, this is just the beginning for me.

THANKS man!!

A few books that might help you:click here for some books


Recommended reading here is John Sayers guide: http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/index.htm

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

do you understand the meanings of isolation and acoustic treatment? isolation (insulation) of sound means to prevent the sound, either going in or coming out, from interfering with your recording or your neighbors. acoustic treatment means achieving the balance needed to obtain good recordings and to produce a mix which translates across different listening situations well. in general, most smaller rooms need bass trapping. in many situations, isolation is required in order to prevent external sounds and vibrations from spoiling the recording of a performance, or to prevent the neighbors from calling the police and shutting your down.

the reading (esp the recmanual site) will help to understand the concepts and the terms and if you read the recmanual, it will help answer many of the questions you have in a way which is generally applicable to your situation. once you have a basic understanding and a position on what you think will work for you (or not), then we can start the process of discussing the various options which makes your situation unique.

for isolation, given you need to construct additional and massive walls, ceiling, and floor to accommodate, it will exceed your budget as stated. from an acoustic treatment standpoint, it would be best to perform some acoustical measurements using something like Room EQ Wizard (REW) which is free (donationware) and runs on most OSes using a decent omni mic and following the fully documented directions included with the software. these measurements will help in terms of understanding what additional treatments might be needed and what options may be best given your budget.

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Glenn

Well, perhpas you misunderstood the purpose of this forum: it is for people who want to learn how to build their own studios, themselves. The idea is that people learn the basics of acoustics then design what they think is good for them, and post the design here, along with any questions they have. The experts here will then answer the questions and maybe suggest modifications to the design.

For people who you don't want to learn, or maybe don't have enough to time to learn, then it would probably be better to hire someone to do the design work for you, so you don't have to learn it all. Of course, that costs money. Folks here will give all their help for free to people who are doing their best to learn and build themselves, but nobody is going to design your studio and build it for you for free! You either have to do some work yourself in learning this stuff (so you can ask the right questions), or you have to pay someone to design your room professionally.

If you would prefer to pay someone to do the design and/or the building for you, then just send an e-mail or private message directly to John.

Yes, there sure is a lot of that on the internet, but you won't find any myths or conflicting info here. You see, this forum is based on the science of acoustics, and is run by a guy who has been recording, mixing, designing and building studios for decades, all over the world. There are several other folks here who do the same thing, and many others (like me) who spend time studying this stuff, reading scientific papers and serious books on the subject. So here you won't find myths and conflicts. Here you will find answers based on the science of acoustics, and decades of experience, form the very best people in the industry. In fact, we seem to spend a LOT of our time dealing with those myths, and explaining, over and over again, why they are garbage.

Carpet is frequency selective absorption. In other words, it absorbs some frequencies quiet well, others just a bit, and others not at all. And it is unpredictable: every piece of carpet has different characteristics, and even worse, they can change over time. (Except for proper acoustic carpet, of course, which is very different). So ordinary carpet is always a lousy choice, based on solid science. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not have a clue what they are talking about, and has never studied anything about acoustics, period.

See? There's one myth busted for you, very simply. Forget carpet as treatment: it does not work predictably, and is next to useless for a serious studio.

Most types of foam are useless acoustically, since they are closed-cell. Open cell foam is good acoustically, but closed-cell is no use at all.

Pink fiberglass is great acoustically. And yes, both foam and fiberglass CAN make your room sound bad, if they are not installed correctly, according to solid acoustic principles. On the other hand, they can make your room sound fantastic, if they are installed correctly, in the correct locations.

It all depends... Most small rooms need a LOT of bass trapping, but it all depends on what you are trying to do with the room, the diffusion already in the room, and many other factors.

If you already had a professional designer in there, and he said you need bass trapping after examining the room, then I'd be inclined to listen to him! It sounds like he is giving you good advice.

That is true: all rooms are different, each has its own characteristics, and purpose, and each therefore needs its own design for treatment. You cannot just throw in s a few bits of foam, or glue carpet on the walls and egg crates on the ceiling at random, and expect to get a usable room! Your specific room has to be analyzed correctly, using the know principles of acoustics (which you can learn), then the isolation and / or treatment needs to be designed for that specific room, then it needs to be built correctly and carefully.

But what you will be reading in those links that people were kind enough to give you is NOT about treatment for other types of rooms: it is about treatment for YOUR room. It teaches you the basic principles of acoustics, and those apply to all rooms on this planet. It teaches you the basics of how to isolate a room, and you do need isolation in yours, so it does apply. It teaches you the basics of how to treat a room, and you do need to treat yours, so it does apply. Everything in those links is applicable to your room, and you cannot, I repeat CANNOT, design and build your room successfully if you don't understand everythign in those links. So either you can read them and learn for yourself how to design your room, for free, or you can pay someone who already knows, and he will design your room for you. The choice is yours.


We'll give you straight answers to straight questions, without any problem and totally free, but please don't expect us to do all the work for you, for nothing! That's not what this place is meant for. You need to learn the basics in order to ask the right questions. We'll help you with that learning too, provided that you are willing to learn. If you can't or don't want to learn it yourself, then pay someone else to do it.

I'll answer some of the points in your original post tomorrow, but right now I have to get some sleep!


- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Hi Stuart!, Thanks a lot for your answers. That's a really great start!
It means a lot to me.

I am going to start reading right away and learn about the particular characteristics of these two gorgeous spaces I have available.

I will come back when when I know a little bit what I am talking
about.

Thanks and see you guys soon....

Hello guys, After a few months here I am again with a little bit less ignorance on the acoustics subject than before.

I have done no changes to the rooms attached yet except I decided that the Control Room is going to be the Live Room and the Live Room is going to be the Control Room. I think it is a fantastic change from my original idea.

Maybe tonight I will upload come pics of the spaces available.

Before I start opening the hole for the observation glasses between the control and live rooms I'd like to ask you few simple questions:

Could I start working on the control room observation windows,
then calculate the overture where all the wiring are going through?
then work on the doors and insulation and leave acoustic treatment for last??

I want to start with the first things first. (Which I think are the most "concrete" stuff. and then go with the acoustics part. What do you think??

Thanks a lot.. and sorry for my english

Before you cut anything, or modify anything, for your own sake - post a plan up and make sure it is the method that will be right. Everybody gets excited to start working on their project, but with the limited budget you have, the last thing you want to do is make a modification that you end up having to repair later because it was the wrong one.

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Thanks!
Bob

Hi People, here I am after a long time and with some pics that I'll use to let you know what I doing.
As I said in my last post, I am doing the opening in the wall, the windows frame and the 2 glasses installation as a starter for this project.
Next I am going to start dealing with the wiring to the live room, then insulation, acoustic panels Etc. But first things first and that's going to start tomorrow!

I am following some good book's guidance: Built it like the Pro's by Rod Gervais and Master Handbook of acoustics 5th edition .

It is very clear that the best glass is laminated glass but in this country that is very expensive.
I got a very good deal for double annealed glazing (you can see the dimensions on the "Preview ObservationalWindow C.Room" picture)
where one piece of glass will be 1/4" and the other will be 3/8" in thickness.

I wonder if I could get away with this glazing. I found no exact method of measuring the glass thickness in relation to the wall because this wall of mine is concrete, not drywall like most walls in USA are made of. So this is one thing I have to be sure about.

The other thing I am not sure about is the windows frame, is it possible for it to be constructed non-continuous on this type of wall?

I ask this because in the book I read this passage: "In wall construction, it has been proven (through lab testing) that a heavy wooden windows frame that runs continuously through the opening does not essentially weaken the TL value of the wall; however, If you absolutely want the maximum benefit, your best bet is to use a separated wood frame assembly"


Other thing is how I am going to pass the wiring (snake) to the other room. but i guess that s easy. Just open a little oberture, pass the cables and then seal it. jah.. not so easy boy!

So this is my status by now, in the pics you can see very clear the spaces illustrated in the Sketch I posted at the beginning of this thread, the only difference now is that I decided the Control Room to be the room with the books and the Live Room would be my sleeping room, of course my bed is already in place following recommendations from gullfo.


Thanks a lot..

Ideally the glazing should match the mass of the surrounding wall but then you might have to go pretty thick on the glass to match concrete... One option on the windows would be to make window plugs to seal them when needed.

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Glenn

ummmm ok. thanks gullfo, but my questions are still up in the post..
Thanks

wow! nobody loves me

sorry, some of us volunteers have day jobs which are required to feed and house family. what do you mean by "non-continuous" since you need to ensure that you have a continuous mass all around (3D) to achieve proper isolation.

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Glenn