John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Hi Forum - George Here - I have been reading here and other forums for months now and finally have decided to join in and share...
I was brought here from seeing what John Sayers did with Studio Containers & mark from Spark 1 Studios in queensland.
This is also a poorly veiled attempt to ask (cringe) at times allong the way for advise..............
Hyper Music
http://trialhypermusic.admin.webbuilders.com.au/
This is my new venture. The studio is located in Phillip Island , Victoria, Australia.

The studio will be a demo quality workshop studio which will be a mix / recording space. The only live tracking will be vocalls and accoustic guitar, the rest will be DI into a 002 digidesign Audio Interface on a PC running Pro Tools.
The room will have a roland vdrums kit and other bits and bobs.
The size is not my ideal scenario, but it is where i must start!!!
Size and dimensions.
Width = 2150 cm
Length = 570 cm
Height = 220 cm
The container is an isulated reefer, but this is only good for thermal capabilities and is not isolating AT ALL....i cualked the living hell out of every seam with acoustic rated mastik b4 starting......
I have lined the walls with normal 10kg/m3 poly batts, 70 mm of closed cell 50 kg/m3 foam, acoustic mastik and then 16mm MDF sheets. None of the sheets touch ( 5mm gap) and are caulked up with acoustic mastic. the corners and top/bottom gaps have been filled with expanda foam............
The floor is t-bar section, which will be stuffed with insulation, covered in a mass loaded rubber ( 12 mm thick and heavy as all hell - from a mine converour belt!!), then a thin layer of foam ( 1-2mm) then 16 mm MDF.
Roof......still thinking??
Doors. i was lucky to have a freind who works at a factory and he sorted me out with two solid acoustically rated doors. cutting the door into the side of the continer about 2.5 m fronm the front wall and having a double door system with gap .

Isolation is not overly important to me as there are no neighbours

Acoustically treating ???? What to do......
Should i DIY, buy treatment, build out the corners, super chunk, diffussion, ........monitor placement - suffit mount- insulation - money- ventilation-

As some of you may agree, you can get lost in the forum and go round in circles..........
I would really apreciate any guidance..............
I have downloaded most calculators for working out absorbtion, rf modes, diffussion, room measuring progz, and so on.
I have a growing understanding of the principals needed, but what i dont have is a huge budget.............

I need a working layout and plan with DIY acoustic treatment ideas..........
any advise will be sooooooo apreciated...............cheers
Here are some pics..........

Hope to chat with you all soon.....

Hi, George, and welcome! A couple of quick comments:

Your trailer is 21 meters wide???

What do you mean by "poly"? In any case, 10 kg/m3 is probably too light to be much use, but you do say that you don't need isolation, so that's probably OK.

Closed cell foam won't do much for you acoustically. Only open-cell is any use. Closed cell is fine for thermal insulation, but not much use in acoustics. Once again, you say that you don't need isolation, so this isn't important, but you could have saved yourself several mm on each side by using something better (acoustically) and thinner.

If that is the typical cheap "polyurethane-in-a-can" type, then that is most likely also closed cell...

You might want to consider a layer of something like 703 under the rubber, to decouple a bit...

What type of foam? What is the purpose? In general, thin layers of ANYTHING is not a good idea in acoustics. You might be fine with that, but just to make sure...

Hnag on a sec! You say that isolation isn't important, and from what you've done so far it's clear that you haven't tried to isolate very well, but now you say that you are going to put double doors in a sound lock configuration? Question: Why bother? If you don't need isolation, and space is at a premium, then maybe that extra door is not needed and the space could be put to better use?

Oh yeah! My favorite passtime! In fact, Ive been trapped inhere for years, and I still can't find my way out...

You ask "Should i DIY, buy treatment, " but then you say "what i dont have is a huge budget", so you already made that decision: DIY is your only option.

"build out the corners,": Yep! But only if you do it right...
"super chunk,": Yep! Goes without saying...
"diffussion,": Nope! Not in a space that tiny. Not useful.
"monitor placement": Yep! In the normal way...
"suffit mount": YEP! For SURE! No doubt about that.
"insulation": Yep! Lots of it.
"money": Yep! LOTS of it!
"ventilation": Yep! Lots of that, too. You are making yourself a double-airtight, triple-thermal-blanket-wrapped box, with you inside. If you like breathing (!), then you WILL need good ventilation. If you like your room temperatures under 1,000 °C, then you WILL need air conditioning...

Useful, to some extent, but the first order of business should be to get your basic goals and layout clear.

Once again, in order to do that, you need to have your basic room layout figured: speaker geometry, mix position, access, overall dimensions (inner leaf), etc. But general rule of thumb: it is a SMALL ROOM, or maybe TINY is more descriptive, so it will need LOTS of bass trapping. That also implies that you are going to need some reflective surfaces, since there will be too much absorption for the highs. so maybe think of slot walls, to go with the bass trapping...

Also, don't forget cabling! You need to have ways of getting your power in, and your audio and other cables around from place to place, including in/out of the truck, maybe?

A final thought: A few months ago, that Spark 1 studio was for sale, I think... it might be just as cheap, and a lot faster, to just buy that one, as is, than to try to duplicate it yourself...


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Thanks for the reply Stuart ,

21 metres wide...........

poly batts are wool fibres and not glass..........nice to work with, maybe a little less effective...

At this stage, i am committed to building this box !! Would have definately considered buying a cheaper version os sparkies container , due to the budget constraints.

BUDGET - $5k........ Most materials i have found and been given so far, the box cost me 3k delivered.

I have designed a baffeled ventelation system but it is not aircon just yet. I have to industrial fans blowing into a sealed box with three baffles and insulated ducting doing three bends. The thermal properties of this thing will mean it wont get hot from thermal transfer from any outside stimulant, but what ever heat is created inside will be vented out via the ventura effect from air comming in and well placed vents letting it out.

My post , after re reading does contradict alittle

I does need a certain level of isolation.. for both sound emissions and resale value.

So decoupling the floor is something i can do instead of a thin layer of foam. I was only putting that down for ..well i dont know now!!

thats why talking about it all here will focus my energy i guess.....

so i am willing to bass trap every corner, wall to roof and wall to floor is necessary.

can i build slats over all supercunk style bass traps with random spacing..i know there are formulas to target specific frequencies though... will it matter??

should i make the rear wall an absorbtion panel??

obviosly early reflection points will be treated, but should i need a cloud?? or just a rug under my listening zone........

i will draw some plans very soon and see what you think i guess..............

can i use 32kg/m3 poly batts...

i have found batts that are 1160x430x75mm. 1 pack covers 3.6 m2 and is $28 per pack.

It is marketed as an accoustic rated insulation.
This is from insulation australia in mitcham, vic.
Chris there is very helpfull.

if i make traps sufficiantly thick is 32kg/m3 ok??
It's just that the rockwool price is as follows
2 panels per pack - panel size 2400x1200 x 75mm.
get ready............................................................................$230 per pack
they also have 50mm tick with three sheets ( same size) per pack for $ 180
I'm not sure if i can affordd it ........

But i guess once i design the treatments and exact design layout it may work out ok........
guess i'll cost it properly b4 i assume........

so whats next design the layout and treatments.......HELP !!!!

Hi again.................

I have attatched a state of the art drawing of the proposed layout of my studio.

This is to give you an idea of what i am thinking.

Dont know of what design The bass traps will be .....need advice.

I was thinking of nest mounting bass trapping along all roof wall edges? is this necessary? maybe some floor wall edges too?

I want the mix end and then tracking end type set up, but they will share the space.

Should i angle the front roof to wall at all???

i cant have the mix position 38% rule so do i need to treat the front wall??

Was going to build a modular vocal booth stand alone unit on a stand that means the vocalist can choose position.

Couch / bed ?

seating options for guitars (stool / chairs)

roland v drums- was thinking in the rear right corner?

Should i bild angled slat covered absorbers on the long length walls??

This is so much fun...........i never thought confusion could be so addictive.......i really am enjoying just pondering all this, but your help IS required to focus and keep moving forward.
Thanks again........

george

Not a rule, a guideline, a starting position. I must think that Wes Lachot (http://weslachot.com/ ) is amused at how this become another in a long line of myths known as hard fact.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Whoa!!!! Slow down a bit! What's the big rush!!! My eyeballs tripped over each other, just trying to read that! Whew!

OK, one by one....

But lets go back to square one first:

Isolation and treatment are two entirely different things. Isolation stops sound getting in and out of your room, but that automatically makes it sound bad inside. Treatment is what you do to make it sound good again. Isolation keeps sound inside, bouncing around, but you don’t want it inside! Isolation makes it sound bad. Treatment fixes the “bad”.

The materials for isolation and treatment are diametrically opposed. Isolation requires mass, thickness, stiffness, density and hermetic sealing. Think: Big, hard, solid, tough, heavy, thick. Treatment is more about light, fluffy, thin, airy, spongy, soft. You cannot stop sound getting in and out very well with materials that you use for treatment, and you cannot treat very well just with materials that you use for isolation. Two different planets.

So, first you have to isolate. In order to do that right, ya first gotta determine how much ya need! In other words, you need to measure REAL levels with a REAL sound level meter: figure out how loud you are likely to be INSIDE the container, or how loud things are likely to be OUTSIDE your container (cars, trucks, people, generators, wind, rain, thunder, planes, trains, helicopters, etc...). On the other end, you need to figure how quiet it has to be inside with all that noise going on outside, and/or how quiet it has to be OUTSIDE when your mix is sizzling-hot INSIDE.

Subtract "A" from "B", and that is how much isolation you actually need (not guessed at, but actually, measured). Simple!

Based on that number, you can then find the type of construction that will give you that magic number you need for isolation. THEN you can start building. Not before. If you start building things before based purely on guess work and the materials that you happen to have on hand, you will end up with a "Frankestudio": a monstrosity that you cannot control, wanders all over the spectrum stiffly and randomly, and that will end up dead and useless. (Sorry for the graphic imagery! )

So first do the sound level test, then do the math, then do the design, and ONLY THEN should you start building. If you started building already, most likely it is now time to start "un-building", so you can do it right. I hate to say that, but it’s the truth.

Tight! Very!

Well, yeah, but only if you also decouple the walls and ceiling! Decoupling the floor alone is like building an aquarium with glass only in the bottom, and expecting it to hold water...

The entire construction is a SYSTEM, and in order to work, it must be consistent and coherent all around. If not, it wont work. The overall isolation can only ever be as good as the WEAKEST part, so if you isolate the floor to 60 dB but the walls only get to 40 and the roof to 30, then you wasted an amazing amount of money doing the floor and walls, because the total final isolation is basically 30, which is the ceiling.

In other words, you have to isolate all 6 sides to the same level. If not, then the weakest side wins, and all the others are wasted time, money and effort.

Yup...

Great! But that is treatment, and we didn't even get to the point of isolating anything yet... One thing at a time... Slowly, Slowly

Yes. No. Maybe... (And I mean that seriously!) It all depends... But you are nowhere near being able to decide that yet.

Maybe. Probably not.

Yup! But you have to know what you are doing with them. An acoustic equation in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing…

Yup, it sure will! In a small studio, EVERYTHING matters.

Most likely, but that's treatment, and you still haven't figured out your isolation....

Yup! But that should be "first reflection points" not "early reflections". Two different things.

Yup! Nope! Depends on how you treat the roof and the floor. But most likely yes. Or not. Later…

Most likely NO! And if you do, that will probably be the very last thing to put in, after the final round of measurement for the final set of treatment...

Great idea! And also get out your sound level meter, and start making those measurements...

Yes! No! Maybe! Where? It all depends what you are trying to do, and where you plan to put them. Most likely yes.

“Ok” for what? It could be great for MSM cavity insulation, but it could be terrible for bass trapping, depending on the device. Once again, it all depends... Then again, it might be just fine! Or not… But you'll never know unless you actually follow the normal procedure for designing the room. That will lead you to the right materials for each part.

Sorry to be so cryptic, but there are just so many things that you have not considered yet, so it just isn’t possible to give straight answers to most of your questions. It’s like someone who keeps on asking “Is my rope long enough?”. How do you answer that? “Long enough for WHAT?”. "Ahh, Ok, I'll change my rope for string! Is it long enough now?"

“Guessing” and “hoping” and “expecting” and “supposing” don't have much place in studio design! Either you design and build something because it fills a specific purpose, and you understand exactly why you are designing it and building it, or it would be best to not bother. Sorry to be blunt, but why fiddle around with 5 grand, not knowing for sure that you are doing it right? It would be quicker to just pile up all the cash and set it on fire… Much better way of disposing of it. . .

Uhhhh.. Nope! Next is to get the sound level meter out, and take some measurements. After that is to decide on the level of isolation that you need (real numbers, not vague guesses). Next is to choose the best construction method to get that level. Following that is to un-build whatever is already done but that won't work, and then comes re-building it correctly.

Please don't get disheartened! You can do what you want, but not the way you are going about it now. And you might have to swallow some disappointment and un-do some hard work first. Fortunately, you aren't very far advanced yet, and "un-building" isn't that big a deal (even though you might think it is!)

I wish I had a dollar for every guy I've seen come through this forum, part way through his build, only to be told that he has done a bunch of things wrong, and needs to back-up and fix them. It happens regularly. Generally, the first reaction is: "Say what? I can't undo that! Too much work. I'm just going to carry on from here and finish it MY way...". Followed by either unbroken silence and undoubted failure (we never hear from those guys again, and we certainly would have heard lots of load gloating, if the result of "their way" was success!), or we hear a big sigh of resignation, the sound of drywall and framing being ripped out, then re-building, and eventual happy success (with no gloating). Obviously, those who bite the bullet and take things apart are the smart guys, who actually do care about how their studio turns out, and are prepared to do whatever it takes to get it right. And they almost invariably win! It takes them longer, but their studios actually work, and the money is well spent.

I'm hoping you are one of the smart guys, not one of the ones we never hear from again...


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

I want to be a smart guy........................

I will do the measurement test, let you know, i am prepared to do what it takes to get the result.
Budget is limited to that amount but i can be creative with how i get the materials, i have found plenty of demolitions places selling great products...that may help.

Once i am happy with the isolation i will start planning layout and acoustic treatment. Not b4...........deap breath

i know i need to slow down, its just that i am going through a divorce and using this project as my healing so i guess im not thinking as straight as i would like.

So off to get a db meter.............

Next post
results

so i play sound inside at a level i will be NORMALLY playing it at and measure various point outside and vice versa??

ok

Cheers stuart....a well needed slap on the wrist is sometimes the best a mentor can do..

Exactly. And if you plan to record live instruments in there, then set up the instruments that you plane to record too. Eg, if you plan to record drums in there, then set up a real drum kit, get the craziest drummer you know, and tell him to play as loud as he possibly can. Same going the other way: think about whatever might be the loudest "thing" on the outside that you DON'T want to hear on the inside, and measure that.

The idea is to understand the kinds of levels that you are dealing with, and the kinds of levels that you need to obtain. To figure the kind of level you want inside, set up a full-range system OUTSIDE and play it loud (both sine sweeps and bass-heavy music, plus other noises) while you listen inside with doors closed. Get someone else outside to turn down the volume until you judge that the level inside is what you would want for normal operations of your studio. Measure that level inside the room: that is your final goal. The difference between that and the loudest level you measure anywhere (inside or out, live instruments or just speakers) is the amount of isolation you need. Simple!

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

OK -

Bought a db level meter......best i could find here was 40 -130db, it is only a weighted but can record highest and lowest points.

Will start testing soon.............

Got offered 22 freezer room sandwich panels. 1200 x 2400 by 100mm for free..................
I have built freezers b4, they are easy.........very easy, was thinking..........

if i built a freezer room around the shipping container, that wouldnt touch the container ( maybe 50-100mm off), and sealed it to the ground and to my double door system, this would help with isolation but more importantly it would completely weather proof the studio, i know these containers are made to go on ships in weather but time + weather = very bad container..........

So these panels are 100mm closed cell foam and have a 2-3mm steel skin on each side........
They are free
it would take me 1/2 a day to errect......
it would weather proff the studio container

question is isolative qualities.............???

There may be some good benefits here.
what do ya think??

Thanks guys...............

george - enjoying the process

Bump

"Got offered 22 freezer room sandwich panels. 1200 x 2400 by 100mm for free..................
I have built freezers b4, they are easy.........very easy, was thinking..........
"

This is a thermal material, typically Styrofoam with aluminum sheathing...not even worth the effort if free in an attempt to develop isolation.


You need mass, plain and simple.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

ok.
So after more study , trial and error and great advice i now understand that mass privides a lower rf and is best for isolation.
Freezer panels built externally with 50 mm gap , even though they are air tight and quite thick (100mm) provide a sub standard amount of mass......
So to not impinge any further on the inner dimensions for now, which has foam and double mdf (16mm) sheets, i am looking at cladding the outside of the container with somthing full of mass...??
lead sheet, dense rubber, thick marine ply, something . I will have to see how resourcfull i can be.....
all construction Photo's are on here http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002752295062

Will be conducting sound level test once doors are sealed and walls caulked properly.

Just casing a bank to rob for more funds....oh ive said too much

kidding

As the container was 85% lined in this method i have decided to finish it in this way to test it, if the results are so poor that i cant deal with the results, i am quite prepared to pull it out and try another method...............the test will tell.............
I am no put off by that fact in any way. Most, to all materialls thus far have been free ( demolitions sites and businesses) or very low cost.

ALSO i came across some glass wool, 48 kg / m3, 50mm thick insulation sheets today. 1.2m x 2.4m sheets. I can get them @ $12.75 p/m2.....
is this material good for when i start thinking about bass traps??
i can only get 35m2 of this and the deal is i must take it tomorrow.
Usually it's over $20 p/m2

can this also be used for high/mid absorbtion??

any advice?

thanks in advance.

Is this only good for bass traps or other forms of absorbtion

Yes it will! But BEFORE you do the test, what are you looking for? What is your goal? "Good enough" doesn't qualify as a goal. "STC 50" kinda sorta qualifies. "TL over 50" qualifies. The danger in measuring first and then setting a goal is that, regardless of the real number spoken truthfully by the meter, you might be tempted to say "Good enough" when really it isn't...

A little on the heavy side, but it should work fine.

Yup.

It would have been great for your wall cavities! But it's OK for most of what you need. Like I said, it's a bit on the heavy side for bass trapping, but still in the ball park. (Maybe right on the edge of the parking lot, but still in there!).


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Ok thanks again.

So what is the ideal density when i ready to look at bass trapping ??

32kg/m3??

Having trouble hanging the mdf roof sheets by my self, think i will get some help today.....

cheers

32 is fine. You could even go a bit less if you wanted, but that will work OK.


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.