John Sayers' Design Forum

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

A World of Experience
Click Here for Information on John's Services
It is currently Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:56 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
"The universe is change;
our life is what our thoughts make it."
Marcus Aurelius



Under a sky awash with the monsoon's seductive sheen, I sit 'listening' to the sunbeams breaking through the clouds in all their glorious brilliance. I reach out and touch their effervescent rays. Then I turn, towards my room.

The room, my living room, 17.33 ft. X 10.6 ft. X 9.3 ft. has been the chosen ground for the Aural Phoenix Atelier, a project studio endeavour envisioned to create, nurture, edit and produce pro-league audiophile-grade music and visual art.


THE CRYSTAL BALL

Form and function, beauty and precision ... I intend to blend them in perfect harmony in here and build a sanctum-sanctorum that's relaxing, joyous, stimulating, inspiring, and intuitive to 'be' in. To be in. Once you're settled, we take it from there.

Immaculately inspirational, spiritually elevating and serenely uplifting an environment... where sound, light, form, ideas and thought coalesce into a seamless workflow, making any endeavour undertaken at Aural Phoenix Atelier creatively satisfying and commercially profitable to the artists, thought provoking and entertaining to the audience, ...and quite alright with the neighbours.



"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" Robert Browning



The Aural Phoenix Atelier is projected as an acoustic-sound-haven. A place to come to if you wanna play and sing naturally with all your good energies, inspiration and gusto, recording it all on a state-of-the-art Apple/Apogee/Genelec based system running Logic Pro and ProTools, professionally tweaked to deliver excellent results, anytime, everytime. A place worthy of the trek (and the climb) to it's elevated reaches, far from the polluting and chaotic atmosphere of the city, to realize the pristine beauty of unadulterated, natural, acoustic music, played on avant-gardé instruments carefully hand-picked and ‘energized’. The charm is evident.

In addition to customized and personalized Songwriting, Composition, Voice-over, Recording and Production facilities, Music and Sound Therapy and Counselling programmes are conducted at the Aural Phoenix Atelier.

All projects, profitable and/or charitable, are pursued for creative fulfilment and evolution of all minds and hearts involved.


"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." Aristotle




THE CHRONICLES AND THE MAPS

Sept. 1989. The refrains from an acoustic guitar impressed themselves upon my heart, mind and soul. I embraced the instrument. I taught myself to talk to it, n’ listen. And play. Then I started hearing.

Sept. 1999. I started taking pictures. Then, I started seeing.

Sept. 2009. The refrains of a paradigm change to life's philosophy and circumstance found a portal of personal artistic expressivity with a lucid understanding and amalgamation of aural and visual art and sciences. All this echoed a strong sentiment with a will for personal, professional, spiritual, emotional, and artistic growth henceforth.


I got myself some tools. I started to make music and take pictures with a new vigour and maturity.

A back-catalogue of compositions, archived painstakingly, in staff and lyric was greatly nostalgic to dig into. Still, it didn't cut the cake.




"First say to yourself what you would be;
and then do what you have to do."
Epictetus



I started getting inspired n' composing, hitting "Rec" n' learning to do (by hit-trial-error-hit again) what they told me was amateur-level sequencing, mixing, mastering n' production.

I decided to take the plunge. My life, my career, my heart n' soul lay in music, … in being around music. In me making my music, making my life music. In my music making me what I am and will be.

I needed an 'artist-name' name, I thought up an alter ego instead ...

"Aural Phoenix" ... the myth turned man.


It fitted in and related to my life upto this point, it sounded cool, it sounded really cool ...


So who am I ? I'll tell ya ...

An eclectic, virtuoso singer-songwriter-producer-musician-entrepreneur, ever yearning to exponentially increase the above number of hyphens and skills and talents contained between them.

I was, and indeed am ready to evolve... To think... n' ask... n' watch... n' learn... n' relearn... n' adapt it to my real-time environment and get the best possible results.


"To reach a port, we must sail—Sail, not tie at anchor—Sail, not drift. Sail."
Franklin Roosevelt



SETTING SAIL

An apple MacBook pro running GarageBand was used for awhile, just that ... n' grace, hope and love .

Songwriting, Playing guitar n' Singing, my real talent-core-trinity was developed along with self-training and familiarization with all the techniques of making technology work and work for oneself.
I taught myself professional software and hardware, terms and concepts, methodology and freedom, philosophies and ideologies ...and the whole bigger picture that comes into being when a dude is "just makin' good music".

I figured I needed an Apogee Duet to get a slick, pristine signal into my 'puter. I got one. The same day, I made friends with an ebony pair of Senheiser cans, they made me "hear what you been missing".
Cans get tiring, I researched n googled n researched again and settled on a pair of Genelecs 6010a and a 5040b subwoofer.

A friend of mine said, "you're putting your cart before your horse". I replied, "that's only 'cause I know I have a darn good whip".



"If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put foundations under them."
Henry David Thoreau


AMIDST THE WAVES

It's fall 2011, the room is stripped bare, U-Mesh, the carpenter has been called in, "how to make home-recording studio" googled n' googled again till websites, forums and other resources of similar nature are diligently searched and soaked in. My place in the picture of things and my relative ignorance was swallowed with a gulp and this renovation project started anew with the faith and trust and belief that the good, kind folk of the world, a few even, would find the inclination and interest enough to point me in the right direction and walk this intriguing and fascinating road with me... the growth and evolution of a place sacred to me, a place of creation and nurturing of music, the immortal divine entity.

The path follows the Atelier's ideological and real-time growth and evolution ... in design, in construction, in philosophy. The path is actually one along which I am personally and professionally growing and evolving.

I believe the journey is more important than the destination. The skill n' knowledge n' craft n' finesse I would gain by banter, debate, conversations and interactions, even just the virtue of being amidst minds that think, n’ do, …. that's just as important to look forward to as would be the finished Aural Phoenix Atelier, a project studio worthy of the music being made in it.

I speak, my mind ...
I seek, I will find ...

To put things in a better perspective, I am attaching a few pictures taken on 6 August, 2011, showing the room as it was when we started work on the Aural Phoenix Atelier - the making of Project

Attachment:
4-up on 2011-08-06 at 12.52 #3.jpg




The room, as I stated upon starting, is 17.33 ft. X 10.6 ft. X 9.3 ft.
On the north-face, a glass window is coming up, 8 ft. x 4 ft. ....on the 10.6 ft. X 9.3 ft. wall, centred around it. It is facing out Northwards into the vivid, ethereal open skies and a neigbouring tree that floats hope and birdsong outta it's dense foliage everytime the wind caresses it ...
Ahem, Ok, Alright, I'll get real...facing out north into the colony street below and the houses on the opposite side.



It's a gamble, ... form n' function.
They appear impossible to co-exist harmoniously. Symbiosis is the key.
The technical ‘defects’ are to be used creatively. Aesthetic would be designed to ‘serve a purpose’.

The sheer mass of the window must've made the purists amongst you gentlemen shake their heads and say, "poor thing, he screwed up right at the start, put in a window instead of removing it lol"

I am well aware that a glass-pane that big spells d-i-s-a-s-t-e-r for the room acoustics (absorption co-efficient of it varies from .18 (@125Hz) to .02 (@4kHz) . No good eh, theorists ?!?!

I am also aware of the inherent security flaws and chinks in the armour of having a room full of high-end technological gadgets, professional studio gear and precious instruments and artifacts, all open to a stone-throw fueled by the sheer lure of the money. In short, burglars. Fingers crossed. Maybe I’ll befriend a certain caped crusader.

I live on the third floor of an apartment block, poorly constructed by the govt. No attention to detail, in anything. It's a story of ‘neither’ form nor function. I have to literally reinvent the wheel here.

Anyway, I am getting that glass pane put for a reason ... an indispensable reason, a reason which justifies my logic (no pun intended ) for putting it up.



HERE COMES THE SUN !!!

" Goodbye Blue Sky…..NOT !!! “

I spent all of 9 months, all boarded up, with no visual clues to day or night, I played and made music in the aforesaid room. It had it's own merits. Hear what came outta that phase @ http://www.soundcloud.com/auralphoenix

It was a gestation period. I had to grow-up a lil’ from the newbie tadpole I was at this all. The embryonic stages ended, I was born. Prematurely ?!?! I think not. When the time comes, the universe conspires to make us do what we are supposed to do.


So we brought the boards down,
I paused ...
I smiled …
I soaked in ...
The evening sunlight filtered in …




The eagles flew home and so did the understanding that I had a place at my disposal that could inspire just by the "quality of light" streaming into it.
And I had boarded it up. Geeezzzz !!!

Yes, sunshine ... that which sustains all life on earth, also sustains my creativity.
Whether romantically reflected at nightfall by a quiet lavender moon, or in the radiant brilliance of the magical "golden hours" relished by pro lensmen, in the pink hues of an ethereal dawn or just on a regular "38 degrees in the shade" day, I NEED SUNLIGHT, lots of it.

So the window, big, sprawling, inviting inspiration, to and from the elements. Spawning creativity.

I plan to hang a heavy rug, blanket or a thick velvet material along the entire length of the front wall, covering the window when critical listening n' mixing needs are primary. Or maybe wood blinds, retractable.

The rest of the time, the sunlight would be filtering into the room, falling on my eclectic collection of varied acoustic instruments and illuminating the space in a fascinating and inspirational pool of light …"Enchanté"



The wall itself has been torn down and is being built again, positioning the window dead centre, to attain a certain zen symmetry I am following in this studio-design.




THE WALL

Aerial view / Top view of wall being constructed



Brick, 5 x 2.5 x 9 inches , red baked fly ash kind from the previous wall. Only, I'm putting in soundboard and/or rockwool, sticking it to the inside of the new wall, and then just doubling the wall up in front of the insulating material, towards the inner-side of the room.

That's a good idea ?

Should cut 50-60 dB technically, being a "Double-wall".

I'm on here to evolve, period... I’ll talk a lot, ask a lotta questions, maybe answering them myself along the way. Here's to hoping the good, kind folk online help out … Cheers !!!






QUESTIONS


My immediate questions to the forum ...

1) What is better, Gypsum board, Plasterboard, or Rockwool, to cut/stop/reduce sound to-n-fro when putting between two layers of brick?

2) Does the insulation need be against the inner wall or the outer wall or not touching either wall on the inside? I reckon this is an important consideration.

3) The insulating material that I sandwich between the brick layers, would it need be "stuck with glue/adhesive" to either wall, or just shove it in place? Or is all this done with screws, studs and opposable thumbs?

4) If so, which adhesive? ...n' how long does it need to dry-up/ settle before I start putting the inner brick layer in ?

5) Do I leave air space between the wall-material-wall layers at any place? ie, between the outer wall and the insulation ? or the inner wall and insulation ? Or do I pack it all in?

6) Do I REALLY need the darn insulation? Will it make a considerable drop in dB levels transmitted through? Or shall i just leave open air space in between the two Walls?

7) When the walls done going up, whats the best method/materials to paint on the outside, and on the inside ?

8) I'm thinking on what to do on that loft? I took the woodwork apart, exposing a cavity in the wall, 12" deep and running 10.4 ft (length of room) and 24" high. What do I do on here?
Any kind suggestions?
Big Bass traps in the corners.... ? Or one BIG trap all along the loft.

Or a big ornate clock in the middle? The need to keep track of time whilst working isn't paramount a need on the minds of ‘soundproofing and acoustic treatment’ minds, but I know and understand it does help to have a visual reference off the corner of your eye. Just an idea. No?


Thx for your suggestions/advice in advance. I'm shopping around for raw materials here in new Delhi as I type this, wish me luck !!!


regards,

A


SOUNDS : http://soundcloud.com/AuralPhoenix

VISUALS : http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAuralpho ... ature=mhsn

WEBSITE : http://www.auralphoenix.com/ (under construction )

Enjoy !!!


Last edited by Aural Phoenix on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:23 pm
Posts: 47
Location: Sydney, Australia
Wrong forum :oops:

_________________
"it's just a dream he keeps havin'......an' it doesn't seem to mean anything"


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
qiktune wrote:
Wrong forum :oops:


Apologies. I reckon lack of sleep. :oops:

Please forgive goofy lil' me. I see someone was kind enuff to move it to the right forum. Thx man.

The wall-building starts tommorow, wish us luck !!!

regards,

A


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:49 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Santiago, Chile
It took a while of wading through middy oceans of "poetic meandering" :shock: 8) :roll: ... But I finally found your questions... :)

Quote:
I'm putting in soundboard and/or rockwool, sticking it to the inside of the new wall, and then just doubling the wall up in front of the insulating material, towards the inner-side of the room.

That's a good idea ?
Nope!

Quote:
Should cut 50-60 dB technically, being a "Double-wall".
Technically, it isn't a double wall if you build it like that. There's a principle of science behind "double walls" for acoustic isolation, called "MSM", for "mass - spring - mass". In order for that principle to work, the two pieces of "mass" (ie, the two sides of your wall) have to be totally decoupled from each other, except through the "spring" (ie, the air). There can be absolutely zero mechanical attachments between the one side of the wall and the other. In fact, they aren't even considered to be "two sides of a wall", but rather two "leaves": the "inner leaf" and the "outer leaf". If you "stick soundboard and rockwool to the inside of the brick wall", then you do not accomplish any of that. In other words, the scientific principles of MSM isolation will not be applicable to your wall, and instead the scientific principle of plain old "mass law" will be applicable, and that's not a very heartening principle if you need good isolation at low cost.


Quote:
1) What is better, Gypsum board, Plasterboard, or Rockwool, to cut/stop/reduce sound to-n-fro when putting between two layers of brick?
All of them. And none of them. :shock: :!: :lol: They all have their places, but only when used CORRECTLY as part of properly designed wall system, based on solid principles of science. In any event, as far as I know "Gypsum board" and "Plasterboard" are kind of the same thing...

Contrary to popular belief, Rockwool does not stop sound (at least, reasonable amounts of it don't: in order to "stop" sound (whatever that means!), you'd need several meters thickness...)

Quote:
2) Does the insulation need be against the inner wall or the outer wall or not touching either wall on the inside? I reckon this is an important consideration.
Actually, not too important at all. Assuming that the two leaves are fully decoupled, with no flanking paths at all, and that the air space is of suitable depth to obtain the necessarily low MSM resonant frequency, then the ideal situation is to fill the entire cavity with insulation, provided that the insulation has the correct mass and gas flow resistivity characteristics, and provided that your local building code (fire code) allows it. Failing to correctly insulate the cavity in an MSM system will cost you up to 16 dB of isolation, theoretically. The insulation is, after all, the damper on the spring, so if you don't put it in there (or don't use the right type) then you have no damper, and no means of converting the acoustic energy into heat energy.

And failing to decouple the two leaves will, of course, cost you all of the MSM isolation...

Quote:
3) The insulating material that I sandwich between the brick layers, would it need be "stuck with glue/adhesive" to either wall, or just shove it in place? Or is all this done with screws, studs and opposable thumbs?
Neither stuck nor glued, nailed, screwed or shoved. Just placed in. Best down using semi-rigid panels or batts that stay in place all by themselves.

Quote:
4) If so, which adhesive? ...n' how long does it need to dry-up/ settle before I start putting the inner brick layer in ?
There won't be any adhesive, so it doesn't need to dry! :)

Far more important is planning how to keep the walls from flanking during construction... That's a tough job, even for the best brickie! Very careful work required. Even one single flanking path destroys the MSM effect.

And the real test will be at the top, in keeping the new inner-leaf from touching the existing ceiling, and how you attach the new ceiling joists to the new inner-leaf brick wall as you get to the top, without flanking anything...

Quote:
5) Do I leave air space between the wall-material-wall layers at any place? ie, between the outer wall and the insulation ? or the inner wall and insulation ? Or do I pack it all in?
Ummm... The insulation IS the air space! And the air space IS the insulation! The two are one, forever united in inseparable bliss. Or something like that. Contrary to popular belief, placing insulation in the air gap does not eliminate the air gap. In fact, it makes it BIGGER, from the point of view of MSM theory. It extends the path that the sound waves must travel by about 140%, if done correctly, which accounts for the change in the constant in the MSM equation for having insulation as opposed to not having it.

Quote:
6) Do I REALLY need the darn insulation? Will it make a considerable drop in dB levels transmitted through? Or shall i just leave open air space in between the two Walls?
That depends on whether you want good isolation or not! :) Yes, you need it if you do. If not, you have no damper on your spring, thus no way of converting acoustic energy to heat, thus costing you in the range of 10 - 16 dB of isolation. That's a big deal.

Quote:
7) When the walls done going up, whats the best method/materials to paint on the outside, and on the inside ?
You need to paint the INSIDE of the OUTER leaf before you star building the inner leaf! If you don't then all bets are off. Brick and mortar are porous. If you don't seal the surface properly, then you don't have a good spring, and the MSM equations are no longer valid.

Before you start tearing down or building up any more, I'd suggest that you re-channel your enthusiasm into a workable design! Acoustics doesn't just happen by chance, from throwing a few bricks, bits of rockwool, nails, screws, glue and gypsum board around! It happens only by understanding the principles and using them to your advantage, instead of allowing them to wallop YOU into submission! :) In other words, you have to design your room, using the principles of isolation (first) to keep sound contained where it should be (either inside or outside or both, as the case may be), then the principles of treatment, to make the room sound good, and make it usable as a place where you can mix decently in such a way that your mixes actually do translate to other environments. IE. you have to design the room so that you can mix your music in there, and the mixes will still sound good when played in other places. If your room is no specifically designed for that, then the chances of it happening by chance, just from throwing around various bits of construction materials, are about the same chances of a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost assembling itself from the bits an pieces flying around as a tornado moves through your local garbage dump.... :D


Quote:
The wall-building starts tommorow, wish us luck !!!
Tomorrow??? :shock: You'll need an awful lot more than luck, if you start building tomorrow without having a coherent plan in place!!! :!: :shock:

You really should re-think that: Spending all that money, time and effort to build something that has no chance of succeeding seems a little, shall we say, "ill-advised"!

I'll try to put this in the simplest terms I can:

STOP! Do not build anything until you understand the principles, and have a workable plan!

Moving ahead now, based on wishes and half-baked concepts, can only lead to one result (and it won't be the one you are hoping for).


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:02 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:54 am
Posts: 3725
Location: Exit 4, Alabama
Ditto.

:)

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
Stuart, I can't begin to thank ya enough. For both, patiently scrolling down my 'poetic meanderings' and taking time to answer my 'newbie' questions in such lucid detail n' self-explanatory manner. I am indeed thankful I joined up this forum. :)

I did STOP !!! lol :oops: I had a gut feeling that I wasn't doing it right. Like one of those times when you start walking but you can't see a path. Then, the light dawns ... :blah: I logged on to read your reply and you sooo confirmed my worst fears. I did kinda feel a bit stupid but ...

Well, I'll tell ya something Stuart, I sure feel good about one thing too. I may come across as an upstart newbie on here, asking silly questions n' having the wrong ideas ... but I'm richer for the experience man. :)
It sure saves a lotta trouble ( and money ) to clarify things on here ( with kind help from ya'll ofcourse ) than to build and construct something and then find out you did it allllllll wrong. That would be disastrous. Thx again.

I have been reading, Rod Gervais’ book n' some more of the DIY-home-studio kind. It's an enriching experience. I am indeed very impressed by the patience and diligence of these men in explaining and elucidating the principles and theories and designs and everything else that goes into making a great home-studio environment. Kudos.

I realize it's elementary to understand the principles and theories of quite a few disciplines and their application to a home-studio environment in a lucid manner before trying to formulate a plan to achieve something that genuinely solves the purpose of a working musician looking to build his own recording studio at home. It pays to learn. I learnt to learn, not to pay n’ get stuff done, without knowing what went where. :?

The phenomenon of 'blind leading the blind' extends everywhere I look. Initially I was quite confused and mislead by the mixed jargon of hogwash that people offer online. It's amusing, how without authentication or any data or any proof, people claiming to be 'experts' have videos and sites that offer advice, even sell courses n' products. Dudes are messing up the two definitions ( Soundproofing and Acoustic Treatment ). I have even seen interwoven terms and ideas. We need a crackdown. :cop:

The same extends down in real-life too here. The 'soundproofing-experts' in town are kinda fuzzy in their logic n' reason . They dish out 'made-to-order' studio solutions to folks, for a considerable cost at that, without knowing fully well the principles and fundamentals behind what they're doing themselves. I’ve been told stuff like … “Sir, use our glass-wool, the density don’t matter” “The resilient channel’s perforation isn’t important, you’re paranoid” “ It’s better to use gypsum board than plasterboard”. I'm like :cen: You get the picture . It's quite out of the question to engage folk like that to do a job for me, even though they are the pros in town.

Now consider the fact that the average construction worker/carpenter/mason 'round here has neither had access to proper education in the English language and it's scientific terminology, nor to technologically superior first-world masonry/construction/carpentry tools, methodologies, ideologies and materials. The understanding ability and efficiency and workmanship in such people, spoken casually of in the western world, remains an elusive find in a country where the socio-economic structure is quite different. Now you start to get a clearer picture ? :horse:

I could do everything myself. With friendly help. But I’d be finding another line of work soon if I don’t get the studio up and running and start making some music anytime soon. I have been displaced from a proper workstation for nearly a month. That hurts the work situation and the creativity suffers without a place to unleash it. :(

The other pressing urgency of the situation here however is that a gaping hole in a living room wall can't be left long. It starts to make people gape lol. No, seriously, it’s asking for a municipality fine besides being a security threat. I have, therefore, decided to take immediate action.

THE NEW PLAN :idea: Phase 1

A plan, hmmm, okie... I could call it that. It's in points, with questions below each. :arrow:

1. The cavity wall idea has been dumped. The masons can't comprehend what you're saying or what's in my books. Neither can the contactors. So we go another way now ...

The wall will be a single unit, either 9' or 13.5' wide. One brick length ( stretcher side ) or One brick length ( stretcher side ) + One brick width ( header side ). I could go two stretchers too ( stretcher side + stretcher side). That's 18' of brick wall, or 9' of it or 13.5' of it.
The wall rises approx. 3’ up from the floor level of the front face of the room then before it’s window-time.
Now, I have a few queries :

a] Mass-Spring-Mass [A] vs. MASS [B] . Is that choice going to reflect on the isolation immensely ? Would I technically be back where I started, in an isolation perspective ? Ground Zero ? A refurbished Ground Zero lol.

b] If I make the wall either 13.5' thick or 18' thick, would it technically not be giving me isolation levels comparable to the [A] system at all, no matter the thickness of [B] ?

It's a bitter pill to swallow if those figures just wouldn't compare. :shock:

c] What would be the best option ? 9’ , 13.5’ or 18’ ? I could decide within 2 days. The brick-layer arrives then.

d] What bond is preferable to build such a brick-wall ? Flemish, English ? It could get interesting if we go 18’ right? The possibilities of ‘stretcher-header-stretcher’ patterns in layering a brick-wall that deep are limitless. What do I do ?

e] Is there any way we can put insulation in between such an aforesaid brick wall ? ( Is this a stupid question again lol ? )



2. The window, ...for it we bought wood frames. Timbre, 5" x 2.5" x 10' beams, to cut n' fabricate into wood frames to hold a glass 8’ x 4’ in dimension. And timbre beadings, 2.5" x 1", to hold the glass in place. The carpenter is somewhat decent. He'll do a good job of it with me, I have the confidence in him, n' myself. The window frames would be two in number, outside and inside, each holding it’s own sheet of glass 8’ x 4’, of different thicknesses. The outside glass would be angled straight, 0° to the vertical plane. However, the inside glass would be tilted and angled down to 8-10 ° inwards. This in effect makes the space contained between both outside and inside panes wider along the top ( i.e. uniformly along the length, and tapering down along the height ). I’m tilting it to that angle in the understanding that it reduces reflections on the inside. The console board would be placed accordingly later.
Pre-fabricated windows here are too darn expensive, and I personally doubt the “Our new acoustic isolation glass is different from toughened-laminated glass, we do our own magic” kinda claims of manufactured-window-makers. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I’m not. I won't buy to find out. The odds of me getting better isolation by following the correct principles laid down in sheet drawings in Rod's book n' elsewhere are more than me trying in vain to explain the idea into some glass-salesman's limited minds and try to get them to do a unique installation. They just can't figure why I would want to tilt the glass, or why I would want varying thickness on the glass panes, nevermind that I am building a studio window, not an ‘anything goes’ showcase window for vain decor. :horse:

So, I wanna ask you, :

a] What kind of saw-cuts and interlocking-incisions do we need to make on each to join those wood beams at the corners of the window ? In essence, what is the best way to make the wood beams lock into each other ? Keeping all principles of sound-travel in mind, what's the work we should be doing on each beam to fit two of them together that would best serve the isolation purpose on the whole ? An illustration would be soooo helpful. :) Thx in advance.

b] What is the best way to join the beams together ? Nail or Screw ? What kind of Adhesive or binding agent ?

c] What is the thing that would make them frames as opaque to transmitted sound as possible ? Any coats or laquers or resins or the like to paint over ? Any treatments ? Any secrets ?

d] How apart should those two glass panes be from each other ? At the top they’ll be wider, closer together at the bottom. Now how farther apart from each other should I place them ? Is there a formulae, based on how big the glass is ?

P.S.: Keep the brick wall’s width in mind. The frames sit on that. It’s 9”/13.5”/18”wide.

e] What should the thickness of each of the glass panes be ? I reckon the outside one could be thinner ( ?! ) and the angled, inner one thicker ( ?! ) . Is that the way to go ?




3. The Original 8 x 4 window idea stays. There’s two of them infact as I stated. Outside and inside. Transportation ( and lifting it up) may be a problem I can’t work my way around since I live on the third floor of an apartment block. It doesn’t make sense to pay a fortune only to have them smuggle in fine print that you are liable for payment upon accidental breakage when it’s in/around your premises. We might have to split the window into 2 parts then, 4’ x 4’.
The questions have been haunting my mind. :?

a] Splitting it means making just two with the same effective principles in each. But how wise is it to have a wooden beam separate the windows ? Wouldn't it make the structure resonate and behave terribly acoustically ?!?! How much damage would be done, strictly acoustically speaking ? Is that gonna be a disaster or there's a way out ?

b] Should I use two of the aforesaid 2.5” x 5” beams, separated by rubber and/or insulation ? In this, each beam would be having its own independent rubber and insulation beading system on the insides where the glass goes and then rubber and/or insulation in the space between the two beams that split the 8’ x 4’ window into two? That’s effectively a 5” x 5” wood mass, split down it’s middle, separated by rubber and/or insulation,, with insulation and/or rubber on either sides, holding the glass. Would such a system work ?

I’d appreciate a suggestion at your earliest ☺


4. Above that window, 8’ x 2’ window frames have been planned. Parallel n' symmetrical to the 8’ x 4’ windows outlined above, only half the height. The same ways of making the frames would be applied as were outlined in the aforesaid points numbered, 2. and 3.. This wood frame, each of them, outside and inside, would end in the existing ceiling.

a] The common wood of the frames would be a single wood beam, 2.5” x 5 “, as described. Is that a sound idea ? The carpenter says that’s the way to go. I have a different opinion. As I mentioned in 3 b], would it be wiser to put indipendent 2.5” x 5” beams for each piece of glass, 8’ x 2’ and 8’ x 4’ ? And put them together them in the aforesaid manner, with rubber and/or insulation in between ?

b] How do we best decouple the wood-beam-frame part touching the ceiling ? Rubber ? Insulation ? The system as described below in 5. ? Right now, a better solution evades me ? I need it to be safe too.


Please don’t tell me not to get the windows lol. I want that light in the recording space n' the open view before me when I sit at my mixing console too. So that is that. :D


5. The glass panes would each have their respective frames I reckon. I haven't figured what I would need to do to isolate the 2 inside-outside frames from each other when they would be connected by the adjoining brick n' plaster, on their three outer sides, right, left and bottom, now that the wall is a single unit. I do intent to put a rubber layer round each of the wood frames before embedding each into the brick wall. Maybe a one piece rubber layer stretching the width of the brick wall ? 9’/13.5’/18’ … as thick as the wall ? The beams of the window frame could sit on this rubber layer. The frames would need to be separated well I understand, beyond just leaving it at that. Insulation is my answer. I plan to line it in a strip along the inner face,… top, bottom, either sides. That essentially means the insulation strips are lined in between the wood frames and resting on the rubber already stuck to the brick wall/plaster structure.
All of it, insulation, rubber, wood frames n’ beadings would be covered in hemp-cloth or felt covering. There would be a rubber layer below each of the beadings that hold the glass in place. Hemp cloth or felt on the outside, finely nailed in and/or stuck with adhesive. Rubber essentially lines the inside n' outside of the wooden frame. The glass is mounted on it, between the beadings on either side, holding it together. That's the plan, here's the doubts ...

a] Does that rubber there, on the outside make a difference ? It seems it would be pretty fragile from the sound of it. I fear the pushing the frames into the brick framework would damage the rubber. :cry: Should I use a single sheet of rubber, setting the frames on it ? Would such a system decouple the wood frame from the bricks and plaster effectively ? Is it worthwhile even having it there ?

b] Does the insulation have to be of a specific density when put between wood frames like such ? How wide should the strips be ?How should we go about cutting the insulation into strips and sticking it ?

c] Does the rubber have to be neoprene ? It costs a packet. :cry: Would regular rubber sheets do ? I already have a couple of regular rubber sheets lying around.

d] Is felt a good material to line the window ? Or is hemp-cloth better ? I mean acoustically ?

e] How do we stick the rubber itself to the wood ? Any particular type of adhesive that is well suited to the purpose ?

f] How do we stick the insulation to the rubber ?

g] How do we attach the cloth/felt to it all ? nails ? glue ? stretch it out ?

I understand I would need to fit and set the completed wood-frame assembly into the wall with felt, insualation and rubber all in place. The glass would be ordered later, when this phase of the plan is over. Any difference in opinion here ?

6. The loft (that thing up there in the first pictures ) was held in place by a wireframe mesh of iron bars n' concrete. We are breaking that cause it would mess with the planned structure and construction, butting into the room, 2', as a shelf as it was. The back wall of the loft was also demolished. That's where the 8’ x 2’ window would be. I had a debate in my head about the wisdom of removing a structure that could act as a front-wall-base for a false ceiling later. But the very crude nature of it’s construction and design make that idea not feasible. It was not a good idea in the first place to build a cavity wall that would end at the base of this loft. Proper decoupling of the inner wall’s upper part with the loft’s base would never be achieved with the skill levels we have floating around here. I couldn’t see it happen. So I formulated this strategy instead. I know the isolation would be affected. But I hope you answered 1 a] in my favour. Well, I have another question here too …

a] Is the freed space, 2' x 10.4' x 2’ not better ? This, given the room's volume just expanded too ? Above and below where the loft’s shelf used to be. That’s approx. 200 cubic feet of free air space INSIDE the room. Ain’t that better, looking at the bigger picture ?

P.S.: Just a reminder, my room was 17.33’ x 10.6’ x 9.3’ upon this project’s start. We made the 17.33’ part 19.33’ now upon demolishing the loft and freeing up that space.



7. The brick wall would rise from bottom to top, on either side of the aforesaid windows. So on either side of the window, this wall is 1’ across and 9.3’ high (room height).On it's extreme right n’ left would be where this front wall meets the right n' left walls on either side. Those joints we need to seal up good.

a] What kind of sealant can I spray/manually apply to the ends of the new wall where it meets the adjoining right n’ left walls ? When does it need to be applied ?

b] Would plaster be sufficient ? We would paint it over that with weatherproof emulsion. Either side, both ways … i.e. in n’ out & right n’ left.

c] Is there a specific kind of plaster that seals tighter ? Any particular application methods ?

d] What kind of paint should we use on the inside and what on the outside ? Shouldn’t we use the same kind and paint over the new wall in an unbroken coat, inside to outside ?

e] After a day’s work of brick-layering, what are the immediate measures I should take overnight ? Any applications on the brick n’ mortar wall to make it stronger ? Any watering timetables that the masons here wouldn’t be aware of ?

f] How long should we let the brick wall ‘set’ before we start placing the wooden window-frames into it ?

g] Would Silicone sealant be really useful in all this ? Dow Corning 789 ? When and where should it be applied ?

h] What ratio of sand would you suggest to add to the cement mixture when preparing mortar for the bricks to be layered ? Here they go with a standard 1:2. I recall the mason mentioning that sometime back.


The cement is being mixed in with a branded ‘Styrene-Butadiene rubber-based bonding agent’ already. It mixes 1 lt. : 50 kg. cement when making the mortar. It should make a difference.

8. Looking at it holistically, I have a wall to build as a system, and a window as another system. Both need to be designed and constructed independently of each other, but they need to come together in harmony to complete the bigger system. Needless to say, each individual system and it’s sub-system, and the whole entirety of the system together needs to be as impregnable to sound as possible.

Any vital suggestions ? Any major issues that I am completely or partially overlooking ? Anything I am ignorant about ?


Do you feel we have a plan now ? A start maybe, to a plan for a plan ?

My back hurts from sitting and planning and typing and calculating and drawing. So I must be working very hard. Only I’m not working hard making music. :cry: That’s getting very frustrating. The home is being neglected and the family also is being inconvenienced out of turn. :( I’ll leave the venting for another time n’ place. Wish me luck getting my music going again though. The purpose of it all shouldn’t be lost sight of. It’s to make immaculate music to touch people. And to be a good man. :)
Now I figure making immaculate music needs two things, besides inspiration and luck ( and some money lol ). To have an environment to record well and to have an environment to mix well. And I intend to put them environments together in the same room. It’s not the best thing to do, technically, but I’ll do it innovatively enough I’m sure. I’ll make it flexible and adaptable, …the workflow, the times, the space. It’s all a matter of good judgement and creativity in all spheres of life. It all works out if one does it with a little deep thought I believe. Watch the results when the pics ( and obviously the music ) come outta this place. Stay tuned.

The construction phase, Phase 1, would end in a week, giving us some breathing space to plan out how to put a framework of wood-beams on the floor, walls and ceilings next. And that only happens once the wall is painted and plastered and the window’s wood frames have gone into place. The glass gets put after the flooring/ceiling/wall-isolation is in place. And the glass also gets put AFTER the rainy season here is over. In the midst of the dry winters maybe. I’ll finish everything else and breathe some much needed fresh air till then in the bargain lol. All’s well that ends well.

Concisely, an outline of Phase 2 :

I have thought along the lines of having a wooden framework all along the wall, ceiling and floor. Each frame, 2’ x 4’. A big wood cage if you may call it that. It would hold insulation between the frames, [Rockwool 80 kg/m3 density] . We would put perforated resilient channel along the frames on the walls and mount gypsum boards on it, packing rockwool behind. Gypsum boards are only available in 6 x 4 sizes around here though. Shall update later in detail. The flooring would be laminate flooring over a layer of gypsum board put on the frames on the floor, insulation in place. The ceiling … the same principle, only we can’t really float it down because of the new 8 x 2 window along the front wall. It’s gotta be ‘up there’. Gypsum board could be substituted and/or layered with soundboard in all above applications I reckon. Intelligently and thoughtfully put, the ‘Sandwich layers’ should be affective in better isolation than a single layer would be. How to do that I would ask in detail in a later post. Thx for your help in advance.

All your advice and help is most genuinely appreciated and my friends and family alike are also very impressed and thankful to the friendly and kind guidance I received over here. It’s a pleasure being a part of this community. Thx. for everything.

Setting a new standard around in New Delhi in what to expect in and outta a home-studio is what I’m looking at doing really. In what a home-studio should sound and look and feel like. In the quality of music that can be made in here. In how it should inspire and foster a spirit of excellent musicianship and a creative workflow in everybody visiting, besides being my own private music-mecca. I am setting standards for myself actually, breaking barriers, but that’s another story.

So that is the mantra that I am working along essentially … I dream and I dream big. And I’m driven to achieve them dreams through hard work.

Citing my “poetic meanderings” again, I reiterate …
"If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put foundations under them."
Henry David Thoreau


I’m working on those foundations.

Regards,

A


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:32 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Santiago, Chile
:shock: I think you just set a new record here! Longest post ever! :) I thought I used to hold that record, but I have to admit that I am thoroughly trumped by your effort!!! :)

OK, seriously: I see your dilemma with available labor. I've never lived in India, but my father served in the military there, many years ago (I mean MANY years: pre WWII!), and I lived in Africa for many years too, in my younger days, so I understand all too well.

Quote:
That's 18' of brick wall, or 9' of it or 13.5' of it.
The more the merrier! Mass is your new best friend: and you will need LOTS of it if you only plan to have one leaf!

Quote:
a] Mass-Spring-Mass [A] vs. MASS [B] . Is that choice going to reflect on the isolation immensely ? Would I technically be back where I started, in an isolation perspective ?
If all you have is a single brick wall, then you don't have MSM. All you have is "M". That's not so good.

Let me put it this way: if all you have is a single leaf of mass, then the isolation is governed by something called "mass law". That's a principle of physics that states that, in order to increase your isolation by 6 dB, you have to double the mass of the wall. OK, so let's say you have an ordinary wall that gives you 38 dB of isolation, and you need to get up to 62 dB. This is easy! If your wall is 4 inches thick (for example), then mass law says that you can double that and you'll increase your isolation from 38 to 44 dB. Cool! Keep going. Now you have an 8" wall. Double it again to increase from 44 to 50 dB. (You are at 16"). Double it again to get from 50 dB to 56 dB. (that makes 32 inches). And double it one more time to get from 56 dB to your target of 62 dB. So all you need is a wall 64 inches thick..... :shock:

Hmmmm.... Clearly this "mass law" thing isn't very attractive for high levels of isolation!

Maybe there's a better way?

So what do you do? Well, forget mass law and go back to MSM. That is a LOT more heartening! MSM is a tuned filter. Tune it low enough, and the wall filters out all higher frequencies, to a greater or lesser extent. You tune it low by putting plenty of mass on each leaf, and plenty of space between them, but the nice thing here is that you need an awful lot LESS mass and LESS space than for a single-leaf wall. Way, way less. You can get that same 62 dB level with just three sheets of 5/8" drywall on each side of double studs, over an 8" air gap. Total wall thickness: about ten inches. Much more attractive!

So, in your case, go ahead and build your brick wall (9" or 13" or 18" or whatever takes your fancy), then build a simple stud frame a couple of inches away from that, but NOT touching it anywhere, put a couple of sheets of 5/8" drywall on ONE side of the stud frame, and fill the gap with insulation. Bingo! Done deal! You have really good isolation in a relatively thin wall, with relatively low mass, at a relatively low cost. Ain't life sweet, when you use the laws of physics to your advantage instead of fighting them? :)

Quote:
b] If I make the wall either 13.5' thick or 18' thick, would it technically not be giving me isolation levels comparable to the [A] system at all, no matter the thickness of [B] ?
Well, you CAN get to the same level as [A] by putting LOTS of mass on [B],... but let's see now, with walls 64 inches thick on each side of the room, plus a 64 inch thick ceiling, you probably wont have very much space in the room for you and your equipment! (If you are very skinny, and your equipment is an iPod, then you might be OK, but otherwise..... :) :!: )

Quote:
It's a bitter pill to swallow if those figures just wouldn't compare.
Acoustics is full of bitter pills: time to get used to that taste! You can have a good, cheap, simple, low mass room that sounds great, with no problems at all! But you have to pick only ONE item from that list: good, cheap, simple, low mass, sounds great. They are mutually exclusive. If you want two or more of those, then the others go out the window. It can be good and sound great, but wont be cheap, simple or low-mass. Or it can be simple and low mass, and even cheap, but then it wont be good or sound great.... you get the picture. Lots of bitter pills.

Quote:
c] What would be the best option ? 9’ , 13.5’ or 18’ ? I could decide within 2 days. The brick-layer arrives then.
Start from basics: How much isolation do you need? That is the defining factor for your entire build. If you don't have a number for that, then everything is just guess work. You need to come up with that number, by using a real sound level meter to measure your real sound levels. Just two of them: A. "How loud are you?" and B. "How quiet do you need to be". Subtract "B" from "A" and you have your number. That number defines the types of construction you can use to get there. Since you want brick for your outer leaf, that limits the possibilities even more. You can then look at the few remaining possibilities, and choose the one you like best. Easy as pie.

Quote:
d] What bond is preferable to build such a brick-wall ?
What bond? Personally I prefer James Bond, but he's probably not available to help you.... Oh wait! You mean brick bond? :lol: (OK, that was lame!) Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Whatever gives you good structural integrity and lots of mass.

Quote:
2. The window, ...for it we bought wood frames. ...
OK, windows are a potential weak point. You are talking windows to the outside world, I presume? Not windows between two rooms inside? The key here is one single point: surface density must be constant. That means that, for each leaf, you need to use glass and framing that has the SAME surface density as that leaf, or greater, not less. If you use glass or a window frame that has a lower surface density than the rest of the wall, then you wasted money on the rest of the wall, because the window will be your limiting factor.

OK, so, the density of brick ranges from around 1,400 kg/m3 to about 2,500 kg/m3. This is India we are talking about, so I'd call it on the low side. Say about 1,400 kg/m3. Laminate glass has a density of about twice that. Call it 2,800 kg/m3. So in theory your glass can be half as thick as your leaf for the same density. But that is ridiculous! If you have an 18" wall, then you'd need glass 9" thick! Yup. But nope. There is also another law here: the law of common sense. Ain't no way you are gonna put 9" thick glass in there! :shock: In fact, you'd probably be fine with 3/4" laminate glass on the brick side, maybe even a bit less.

This should lead you to the conclusion that you also don't need 18" of brick in your wall: 9" is probably fine. But we need to know your number first, before deciding that...

So you'd probably be fine with a 9" brick wall outer leaf having 3/4" glass in it (or less), plus a 2 or 3 layer drywall inner leaf with 1/2" glass in it (or thinner).

Quote:
I’m tilting it to that angle in the understanding that it reduces reflections on the inside.
Not really true: it just moves the reflections to a different place, but they are still there... All that happens is that the reflections that hit your ears will now be coming from a point a bit higher in the room....

There is also the issue that having a narrower air gap for one edge of the glass means that you ave reduced your total isolation of that entire wall to match that air gap! So keep the air gap as big as possible. Bitter pill #2: keeping the glass straight (not angled) increases your isolation, but also increase the chances that you'll have problems with visual reflections, glare from lights and things. Angling the glass can get rid of those, but reduces isolation.... red pill, blue pill, both bitter...

Quote:
The console board would be placed accordingly later.
The console should be placed correctly for the room and speaker geometry, not according to the window angle! :shock: The console position is determined geometrically, based on your speaker and head positions, not based on glass reflections....

Quote:
Pre-fabricated windows here are too darn expensive,
... and pretty darn useless, too, for acoustics, most likely.

Quote:
The odds of me getting better isolation by following the correct principles laid down in sheet drawings in Rod's book n' elsewhere are more than me trying in vain to explain the idea into some glass-salesman's limited minds and try to get them to do a unique installation.
Bingo! Yup. You got it.

Quote:
What kind of saw-cuts and interlocking-incisions do we need to make on each to join those wood beams at the corners of the window ? In essence, what is the best way to make the wood beams lock into each other ? Keeping all principles of sound-travel in mind, what's the work we should be doing on each beam to fit two of them together that would best serve the isolation purpose on the whole ?
Not too important, acoustically, since you are going to seal the hell out of that frame in multiple different ways anyway. So get your best carpenter to do the best joint he can for structural strength (you don't want the frame warping). However, he does need to be accurate. Look at pages 85 though 91 of Rod's book, for drawings of how to do it right.

Quote:
c] What is the thing that would make them frames as opaque to transmitted sound as possible ? Any coats or laquers or resins or the like to paint over ? Any treatments ? Any secrets ?
Varnish, paint, or some such to seal the surface, and tons of caulk around the edges to seal those to the wall. And of course your brick wall itself must be sealed, by painting it (the side that faces into the cavity) with a good sealant for brick walls.

Quote:
How apart should those two glass panes be from each other ?
What is your NUMBER? :) Based on that, you can figure your MSM and other things to arrive at these answers... But in general the answer is: as far apart as possible.

Quote:
Is there a formulae, based on how big the glass is ?
Yes there is a formula, no it does not matter how big the glass is. It mattes what your NUMBER is, and then the glass density and size of the air gap come into play...

Quote:
Keep the brick wall’s width in mind. The frames sit on that. It’s 9”/13.5”/18”wide.
ONE frame will sit on the brick wall. The OTHER frame will be in your stud-and-drywall leaf....

Quote:
e] What should the thickness of each of the glass panes be ? I reckon the outside one could be thinner ( ?! ) and the angled, inner one thicker ( ?! ) . Is that the way to go ?
What is your NUMBER? (I seem to be repeating myself here... :) )

Quote:
The Original 8 x 4 window idea stays.
That is a BIIIIG window! 8' x 4' of 3/4" laminate glass is going to cost you a fortune!!!! You really might want to re-think that size...

Quote:
b] How do we best decouple the wood-beam-frame part touching the ceiling ? Rubber ? Insulation ?
I'm having a hard time visualizing what you are saying. Make a model in SketchUp, and post it here.

All your other questions about the windows are based on the assumption that you are only going to have a single-leaf brick wall. If you did that, you don0t have any way of decoupling the two sides of your window....

Quote:
b] Does the insulation have to be of a specific density when put between wood frames like such ? How wide should the strips be ?How should we go about cutting the insulation into strips and sticking it ?
What type of insulation? Yes, the density does matter, and yes there is optima density, but it depends on what type you plan to use...

Quote:
Does the rubber have to be neoprene ? It costs a packet. :cry: Would regular rubber sheets do ? I already have a couple of regular rubber sheets lying around.
Yes. No. Maybe. It all depends. The rubber has to have the right "springy" properties in order to decouple. You can't just use any old thing, until you know how much it compresses under what load....

I got dizzy trying to read the rest of your post, and it's 1:30 AM where I live, so I need to get some sleep, and recover some sanity, before looking at the rest... But this should help you bit, I hope!


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
Stuart,
I wasn't gunning for a record. :P I just felt if I explained in 'd-e-t-a-i-l' what my real-time situation is, what my limitations are and what I intend to do, you'd be having a better idea about what I'm onto. Besides I had read a sticky that said 'Provide details, that way we can help you better'. So, I sat down and put everything in perspective ... and typed it out, in detail.
So I'm sorry for stealing your crown, lol ... But what I really want is to steal your brain to help me complete my project lol :mrgreen: You have an uncanny ability to clear my mind, showing me a more 'sound' direction.Many sincere thx for everything you done till now.

You repeated yourself enough lol. I figured I need an SPL meter to give ya a 'NUMBER'. I got an iPhone app that says it is one but I'll try n' double check my readings with a dedicated one too. I been taking readings, will do the averaging math. Could you tell me if it's enough to just take random-point levels inside n' outside ? Or do I follow a positioning-pattern n' chalk it all out on paper ? :?
So the elusive number shall be posted very soon. I'm extremely apologetic for not furnishing it in my earlier posts. Just been very chaotic n amateurish about it all till now I guess. :oops: I'm learning, how to do it n' do it well. Thx again.

I also figured I needed to give ya a pictorial representation. Well, I did get started on sketch-up n' will post that later tonight. Two ideas on what I'm planning to build up where that wall was.Please do check it outn' advise me on the best options out.
It's all very flexible at this stage ... but I am kinda yearning to get a basic structure up, sealing the room out atleast for now. We take the inner leaf from there ( ... if you're still interested lol ) :lol:

We built a wall, 21" off the floor. One day's work. Now it's sides are plastered, looking clean. Feels like we going somewhere finally.

I stopped at 21" cause I am in two ( actually 3) minds about where to go from here.

It would be most gracious for you to lemme know what you think is the next best POA, based on the 'numbers' AND common sense. :D

There's another 'sense' which tells me I NEED a window, let's call it a 'sixth sense' for now. So don't advice against that please. You ought to see the monsoon skies over here.They're immaculately inspirational an expanse, even though partially blocked by adjoining apartments to understand why I stand firm, even after swallowing quite a few of your 'bitter pills' :mrgreen:

Quote:
So, in your case, go ahead and build your brick wall (9" or 13" or 18" or whatever takes your fancy), then build a simple stud frame a couple of inches away from that, but NOT touching it anywhere, put a couple of sheets of 5/8" drywall on ONE side of the stud frame, and fill the gap with insulation


So how do I decouple the top and bottom of the stud frame ? And the sides ? The edges ? Or do I just drive the beams into ceiling and right/left walls, placing it on neoprene pads on the floor ?

And what is this "drywall" ? Gypsum board, 5/8" thick, insulation at the back ?Insulation being Rockwool slabs ?



Quote:
What bond? Personally I prefer James Bond, but he's probably not available to help you....


No problem, send a Bond Girl over instead. :twisted:

btw... we went Flemish for whatever wall we done till now, 21 inches i.e.

Quote:
Yup. But nope. There is also another law here: the law of common sense. Ain't no way you are gonna put 9" thick glass in there! In fact, you'd probably be fine with 3/4" laminate glass on the brick side, maybe even a bit less.


Are you telling me the mighty science of Acoustics, blue pill/red pill n' all is overiden by ... our unassuming next-door friend, Mr. Common Sense ? I didn't get the philosophy quite. :roll: Pleas elucidate that decision, 3/4" vs. 9" ? Lamination does the trick ?

Quote:
All that happens is that the reflections that hit your ears will now be coming from a point a bit higher in the room....


I was talking about the ones hitting my eyes there actually. And for those ones coming into my ears from up higher, couldn't we treat the space in front of the window with a hanging/collapsible cloud-trap/acoustic panel ? To put up during critical mixing, listening .... n' taken down, to reveal an open view behind a thick curtain ? Good idea ? Workable idea into Good idea ?


Quote:
The console position is determined geometrically, based on your speaker and head positions, not based on glass reflections....


Now, I have heard mixing engineers whine about how consoles interfere with the mix, bouncing reflections off them. Direct speaker reflections AND ones that are refleted from the speakers' back wall.
I was going with the idea that since we're building from the way up, we could angle that glass geometrically too, such that it never causes reflections.Then we settle to taking "head n' speaker" measurements. Am I thinking too much ?

p.s.: I have near-fields for now. I just wonder how much of a real difference would treatment make to the environment when I'm using near-fields for my real work. I reckon the music I make will speak for itself then. lol. :mrgreen: :D

p.p.s: Those near-fields are a new pair ofGenelec 6010a I bought, a set... complete with the sub 5040. Whaddya think of those ?

Quote:
and tons of caulk around the edges to seal those to the wall


Ummm, what kinda 'caulk' ? No-one has even heard the term in bricklayering/contracting circles round here lol.

Quote:
Is there a formulae, based on how big the glass is ?
Yes there is a formula, no it does not matter how big the glass is. It mattes what your NUMBER is, and then the glass density and size of the air gap come into play...


So, are ya teling me, based on my number, I could put up as big a window/s as possible, going up on density and air-gap figures if needed ?

How about two windows ? or three ... stretching the length of the room ? 7' X 3' sized each ... That sounds like a joke to isolation or is it workable a thought ?

Please see the sketch-up plans for a pictorial representation of my ideas for a better picture. Thx in advance.

Quote:
I got dizzy trying to read the rest of your post, and it's 1:30 AM where I live, so I need to get some sleep, and recover some sanity, before looking at the rest... But this should help you bit, I hope!


It did, Immensely.

Ya know what Stuart, what's really heartening is that somebody, somewhere ... far, far away is helpful enough to stay up n' guide me along. Thx for reading up so late mate, hope you slept well that night. :)

regards,

A

P.S.: I am posting pics taken today, followed by two google sketch-up plans. You should have a fairly good idea what you're dealing with after you have looked through them.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:45 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
Besides I had read a sticky that said 'Provide details, that way we can help you better'. So, I sat down and put everything in perspective ... and typed it out, in detail.
Well, I must admit, you followed that instruction to the letter, for sure! :)

Quote:
I figured I need an SPL meter to give ya a 'NUMBER'. I got an iPhone app that says it is one but I'll try n' double check my readings with a dedicated one too.
Forget the iPhone app! That teensy little 25 cent mic on the phone itself is woefully inadequate, not to mention the teensy little 25 cent audio circuit it is connected to... no matter how good the app is, there's no way on this planet that you'll get a reading that is anywhere near reliable. Not too long ago a friend of mine wanted to check his iPhone app against a real meter, so I pulled out my US$ 500 spectrum analyzer, and we compared... :shock: :lol: You get the picture!

Get a real meter.

Quote:
Could you tell me if it's enough to just take random-point levels inside n' outside ? Or do I follow a positioning-pattern n' chalk it all out on paper ?
Well, if you want to be really methodical about it, pick several key points inside and outside your building, and note down the levels at each point as you play different types of test signals (rock, classic, sine sweeps, pink noise, heavy metal, etc.) Then measure the ambient level at each location at the quietest time of day. Then subtract B from A for each location, and take the biggest difference as your goal. Or you can just take a few measurements at random, and you won't be far wrong.

Quote:
I also figured I needed to give ya a pictorial representation.
Yup! You can see it easily, and understand it all. We can't unless you show us! :)

Quote:
There's another 'sense' which tells me I NEED a window, let's call it a 'sixth sense' for now.
Windows are nice! I like them. Natural light, etc. The issue is isolation. If you want windows, then go for it, but take lots of care with the installation. A tiny gap just a few inches long and 1/32" wide under one edge of the window is enough to destroy the isolation completely...

Quote:
So how do I decouple the top and bottom of the stud frame ? And the sides ? The edges ?
Simple! Don't attach it too anything (except the floor)! The concept is "room-in-a-room". You are building a slight smaller room inside the existing room. It only rests on the floor, and does not touch any other part of the room. So you bolt your four stud frames for the four walls onto the floor, then you put joists across the tops of those new frames for your new ceiling, such that the joists only touch the new frames, nothing else. Then you put drywall on only one side of all those new studs and joists, seal it all airtight, and you are done! (Kind of...)

Quote:
And what is this "drywall" ? Gypsum board, 5/8" thick,
Yup. Drywall = plaster board = sheetrock = gypsum board. All the same stuff. Basically just sheets of gypsum with paper facing. 5/8" is good, don't use anything thinner.

Quote:
insulation at the back ?Insulation being Rockwool slabs ?
It can be Rockwool, or even pink fluffy fiberglass, or semi rigid fiberglass. Density is important, too. Rockwool should be about 48 kg/m3. Fiberglass about 32 kg/m3.

Quote:
Pleas elucidate that decision, 3/4" vs. 9" ? Lamination does the trick ?
Lamination helps, yes, but here it's just a question of diminishing returns. If you want, and have plenty of money, and can even find such stuff, then by all means put in glass that is 9" thick! You'll need a crane to lift it, and some pretty hefty frames to support it, but you'll have the best isolated window on the planet, no question! :) But seriously, with two panes of 3/4" thick glass over a 12" air gap (for example) you'd already have damn good isolation, probably exceeding the flanking limit of the rest of your structure, so why go more?

Theoretically, the resonant frequency of such a window would be waaay down around 15 Hz, so it would isolate everything above about 30Hz pretty darn well. You'd be getting around 40 dB of isolation at 100 Hz and 60 dB at 4kHz, just from Mass Law alone, without even considering MSM!

So you'll be more than fine like that, assuming you can even get / afford 3/4" laminate glass. If you use 1/2" laminate on both sides of a 12" gap, you'd still good: 19 Hz resonance, good isolation above 38 Hz, and mass-law isolation of 28 dB at 100 Hz, 45 dB at 4kHz.

That's all theoretical, of course.

Quote:
And for those ones coming into my ears from up higher, couldn't we treat the space in front of the window with a hanging/collapsible cloud-trap/acoustic panel ? To put up during critical mixing, listening .... n' taken down, to reveal an open view behind a thick curtain ? Good idea ? Workable idea into Good idea ?
Yup, you could do that, for sure. Maybe a gobo on wheels, to just push in front of the window for critical listening. Of course, if you design the rest of the room correctly, that might not even be necessary... :)

Quote:
Now, I have heard mixing engineers whine about how consoles interfere with the mix, bouncing reflections off them.
Yup. That's why the whole speaker / mix position / desk / console geometry is critical. Ideally, it should all be arranged to eliminate first reflections, or at least control them so that no reflection gets to your ears within 15md and 15 dB of the direct sound. Easy to say, not so easy to do...

Quote:
I was going with the idea that since we're building from the way up, we could angle that glass geometrically too, such that it never causes reflections.Then we settle to taking "head n' speaker" measurements. Am I thinking too much ?
The glass will ALWAYS cause reflections: the only question is "which way are they going". You can re-direct them to some place that doesn't matter, if you design the room well, but they will always be there.

Quote:
p.s.: I have near-fields for now. I just wonder how much of a real difference would treatment make to the environment when I'm using near-fields for my real work.
It al depends on how you mount them! Are you going to soffit-mount? (a.k.a. Flush mount).

Quote:
p.p.s: Those near-fields are a new pair of Genelec 6010a I bought, a set... complete with the sub 5040. Whaddya think of those ?
A bit small if they are your only speakers, but fine for checking mixes on. They also are rear-ported, making them a bit harder to soffit mount, but it could still be done... although I don't know if it would be worthwhile soffit-mounting such small speakers, and the curved shape makes that even harder.

You might find this interesting...

http://www.genelec.com/learning-center/ ... -mounting/


Quote:
Ummm, what kinda 'caulk' ? No-one has even heard the term in bricklayering/contracting circles round here lol.
Silicone based sealant. The kind you use around the edge of bathtubs, showers, kitchen counters, etc. Comes in large tubes that you fit into a kind of pistol shaped thing, where you squeeze the handle to force the caulk out of the nozzle on the other end. You need the type that stays flexible and rubbery even when it is fully dry. And you will need LOTS of it. Better buy some shares in the company that makes it! :)

Quote:
So, are ya teling me, based on my number, I could put up as big a window/s as possible, going up on density and air-gap figures if needed ?
Yup. There is a point at which stiffness also comes into play, so for really large sheets of glass that could be an issue, but for most reasonable sizes, the only items that matter are surface density and depth of air gap.

Quote:
How about two windows ? or three ... stretching the length of the room ? 7' X 3' sized each ... That sounds like a joke to isolation or is it workable a thought ?
Well, you COULD do that, from the pure isolation point of view: build your room as an aquarium if you want, with 3/4" laminate glass all around! That would isolate pretty well! But it would sound like crap in there, and it would be really hard to nail any treatment to the walls... :)

Quote:
Please see the sketch-up plans
OK... but... ummm... whre are they?


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
Stuart, many apologies... I thought I'd take a lil' extra effort while dabbling in sketch-up ... The horizon keeps expanding, yu know what I mean. :D. Well, the file got too big and this site is on diet, so I had to upload it at this site ...

https://www.cx.com/mycx/share/7l2HaeKbE ... pt%201.skp

The sketch-up is a framework representation of what I have in mind at this stage. The outer room.

Now please understand that the room is almost as I have drawn it out, bare and stripped of furniture. Only No wood frames are up yet on the front wall.There is a wooden cabinet for cables and general stuff I got made that I'll draw and move in later.
The doors exist, as does the adjoining bookshelf to one. That was built to halve the partition with the rest of the house.

The rest, please understand... I can make it EXACTLY AS WE PLAN, down to the finer details. The wiring, lighting, air-conditioning, traps, curtains, console, speakers placement, chair, piano, guitars, amps .. n' a couch.
Please understand too that I'd like to get the most outta that immaculate tone of my acoustic instruments ( and of the amplified ones too ) whilst tracking AND playing. I'll list out my gear for ya in a later post to put it all in a better perspective. Oh, I'd like to fit that couch back against the rear wall, just to rest my weary bones in time. In time. :)

The inner leaf I'm trying to sketch it up, will post it later.

Tell me, are those 7" x 3" windows, 3 of them really a 'do-able' thing. I'm thinking along the lines that I could tilt the glass panes individually first, then balance all out by building the inner room such that I can do what you said about reflections.....

Quote:
You can re-direct them to some place that doesn't matter, if you design the room well, but they will always be there.

Quote:
Maybe a gobo on wheels, to just push in front of the window for critical listening. Of course, if you design the rest of the room correctly, that might not even be necessary...


So if I read you correctly, AND if we do this right, and we design that inner room such that the reflections off the glass are almost null in and around the critical mixing position, and insignificant/ moderate around the vast majority of the room, then we CAN put 3 panes, 7" X 3" , 7" X 3" , 7" X 3" :wood-framed, caulked well, up above that brick-wall [21" high] and build the inner room from there ? :)

Quote:
Well, you COULD do that, from the pure isolation point of view: build your room as an aquarium if you want, with 3/4" laminate glass all around! That would isolate pretty well! But it would sound like crap in there, and it would be really hard to nail any treatment to the walls...


So I can't ?!?! :( :cry:

Please tell me, if it is a somewhat workable idea ?



Now which way to tilt them each if we CAN build them at all ? hmmmm... you'd need a number to answer that right. :mrgreen: kkk, I'm on it. Just gimme time to get my hands on a SPL meter. Worse comes to worse, if I just can't get one, ... I could walk around with my mac and take readings with a condenser mic hooked to an Apogee duet ?!?! That or the mac's mic sounds pretty sensitive too ?!?! def. would beat that 50-cent-gimmick I was smiling about lol :P

From what I follow, the inner room would be gypsum sheets mounted on a floor-secured framework with insulation at the back.The ceiling is attached to the top of this framework, not touching the existing ceiling. Right ?

Now how do we get three parallel ( but each critically angled ) windows, 12" apart , three of them, 7" x 3", to stand on such a framework structure 12' behind the front-wall with it's own three, critically angled 7" x 3" windows ? I see that making the 'room-within-a-room' principle effective in rudimentary thought but am I being too unrealistic ?!?!

We could go 2 panes too, little wall on either side ... You tell me ? :?

More doubts later ... Work stands stopped at the 21" brick wall up. I want to make the right decision. I'm willing to give it a little deeper research and thought.
The lingering construction has caused quite a flutter in the neighborhood. I'd do well to get some good isolation before I start turning the knobs up anytime soon now. :mrgreen:

Those Genelecs I picked to mix well, get a clear neutral sound, not to blast away on. I intend to get bigger Genelecs later to get that dB level pumping. I never thought about flush-mounting those teeny-weeny speakers, but I'm onto the link you sent to see what I can learn. Thx for that :)

Expecting you to clear my head yet again,

regards,

A


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
Attachment:
Atelier Room Concept 1.skp
Stuart,

There's the sketch-up file, basic layout. Sorry I been a bit caught up on the personal front.

I wonder why you didn't reply at all though .... Sinking hearts here :cry:

A


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:22 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Santiago, Chile
Quote:
I wonder why you didn't reply at all though
Sorry! Guess I must have missed it! I'll take a look tonight.... Busy days! :)

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
Soundman2020 wrote:
Quote:
I wonder why you didn't reply at all though
Sorry! Guess I must have missed it! I'll take a look tonight.... Busy days! :)



No problem at all Stuart. I was just wondering if you lost interest and I'd have to do this project all by myself. Thx for the reply . :)

A


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:38 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Santiago, Chile
OK, downloaded your SketchUp, and not sure how you had your camera set up, but that thing made me dizzy in about 3 seconds! Copied the model to another file, and it's fine now.

So, basically we have the entire space from the edge of the bookshelf to the windows, correct? Or are you willing to lose the bookshelf too, if necessary? (take it out, put a wall in the gap...)

Quote:
There is a wooden cabinet for cables and general stuff ...
Can that go too? It's in a really awkward place, acoustically...

Quote:
The rest, please understand... I can make it EXACTLY AS WE PLAN, down to the finer details.
OK, but first, back to basics: What are your goals? Is this just a control room, for mixing stuff recorded elsewhere, or stuff made "in the box"? Or do you also need to record live acoustic instruments and voices? If you need both, then do you want to split that space into CR and LR (Control Room and Live Room), or just keep it as one big room? If you do need to record, what instruments are we talking about? Extreme heavy metal rock bands, or a single small kid with a kazoo? (You might already have mentioned this: I don't recall, and I don't have a few free days on my hands to go back and read and decipher the entire "poetic post", so please just refresh my memory if you already mentioned the above... :) )

Quote:
Please understand too that I'd like to get the most outta that immaculate tone of my acoustic instruments
OK, that partly answers my above question: Track and mix, including acoustical instruments.... but which ones?

Quote:
Tell me, are those 7" x 3" windows, 3 of them really a 'do-able' thing.
If you have a big enough budget, then almost anything is do-able! Question is, does it make sense? That's a lot of glass: If that is going to be the front of the room, you leave zero space to correctly mount your speakers, and zero space for front wall acoustic treatment... A control room with no speakers and no acoustic treatment doesn't seem to make much sense, to me... :)

Short answer? I wouldn't do that. Keep the center one, and lose the two outer ones, since that's where your speakers and treatment need to be. Especially if you soffit-mount!

Quote:
I'm thinking along the lines that I could tilt the glass panes individually first, then balance all out by building the inner room such that I can do what you said about reflections.....
I don't think the room is big enough for that: those tilt angles would have to be really weird, and there's no place for the required treatment. We can make that center window as large as possible, it that's what you want, but it will require careful design to keep reflections away from the mix position.

Quote:
... design that inner room such that the reflections off the glass are almost null in and around the critical mixing position, ...
Well, I wasn't counting on the glass being BEHIND the speakers! That's hard to deal with. I was thinking that the glass was going to be off to one side.

I think you should drop the idea of making that front wall entirely glass. Big central window? Yes! Not a problem. Add the big ones on each side? Kills the room. Sorry.

Quote:
then we CAN put 3 panes, 7" X 3" , 7" X 3" , 7" X 3" :wood-framed, caulked well, up above that brick-wall [21" high] and build the inner room from there ? :)
The big central one can probably be a bit bigger than 7x3. Maybe 7x4 or even more, but once again that requires careful design, to keep reflections under control, and I'd definitely go with some form of soffit mount if the front wall is glass: too much hard comb filtering and other nasty stuff going on up front if you don't soffit mount under those conditions, IMHO.

Quote:
Please tell me, if it is a somewhat workable idea ?
"Somewhat".... :) Like the song says: "Somewhat over the rainbow....". Oh sorry, that was "Somewhere", not "somewhat"... but you get my point.

Let me put it simply:
A) You can have lots of beautiful glass in the front of your room.
B) You can have lots of beautiful acoustics in the room, to get "that immaculate tone of my acoustic instruments".

Pick only ONE of the above... :)

Quote:
From what I follow, the inner room would be gypsum sheets mounted on a floor-secured framework with insulation at the back.The ceiling is attached to the top of this framework, not touching the existing ceiling. Right ?
Yup! You got it. The gypsum sheet work must be sealed air tight, and so must any doors/windows.

Now, seeing that you want the front half of your outer leaf to have lots of glass in it, that also implies that the front half of the inner leaf also has lots of glass in it: light doesn't shine through drywall very well... So you'll be building that stud framing with that in mind: the central portion of the front will have lots of thick, heavy, expensive glass in it, meaning that it must be designed to support the weight.

Quote:
I see that making the 'room-within-a-room' principle effective in rudimentary thought but am I being too unrealistic ?!?!
Yup. :)

Quote:
We could go 2 panes too, little wall on either side ... You tell me ?
One pane in the middle. Can be large, but depends on how your speakers are mounted, and what other treatment you need on the front wall, which depends on the overall design of the room itself...

Quote:
I intend to get bigger Genelecs later to get that dB level pumping.
I like Genelces, but they are hard to soffit mount, due to the curved shape, and rear porting on some models. Could I convince you to take a look at something equally good, sonically speaking, and much easier to soffit mount? Maybe a nice pair of Adam A7's or A8s? Same price range, great quality, nice simple boxy design, no rear ports... :)

Quote:
Expecting you to clear my head yet again,
:shock: :!:

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:03 am
Posts: 14
Location: New Delhi, India
Quote:
So, basically we have the entire space from the edge of the bookshelf to the windows, correct? Or are you willing to lose the bookshelf too, if necessary? (take it out, put a wall in the gap...)


Yup, I done just that. Exactly as you said. It made perfect sense acoustically. No books in your studio ?

So we have a Right wall that is EXACTLY the same as the Left wall. All the way from the front wall to the back.

One door on either... left wall- main entrance, right wall - house entrance.

Two modular switch panels on each wall, 12' from the floor, 69' from the front wall.

NO FIXTURES AT ALL. All lights would be LEDs on the ceiling or floor-standing lamps.

The rest of the specs and my technical details ... I'm typing out a detailed post, and drawing a new sketch-up plan. I will post within a few hours.

Thx for your help

regards

A

P.S.: I've dropped the entire glass idea, it was approved by some folks but I trust you more. Now you tell me, you got some ideas for that front wall ?!?! It's already 21" high. Then it's open canvas ...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: baltjies and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group