John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

My Wife has agreed to let me use a den in our home as a music room. I wanted to be able to create a general purpose space that would allow me to record and rehearse and minimize impact to others living in the home and the neighbors around us. We live in a single story ranch style home in a quiet community.

GOALS:
(1) To prevent the sound of an electric guitar played acoustically from escaping the room. In the current setup my wife can sometimes hear the strumming of the electric guitar even though I am playing through headphones and the doors to the music room as well as the bedroom are closed.

(2) It would be nice to be able to play acoustic guitar and not disturb the wife and kids while they are sleeping

(3) It would be even nicer to be able to play drums and have the sound knocked down enough the family could still watch TV and not have to raise the TV volume to extreme levels. If I could achieve a 6db reduction in sound at the property line perimeter that would be an added bonus. Playing drums in the room I was able to register between 110 dBA and 120 dBA closer to the 110 dBA side of things. At the property line I was approximately 61 dBA which is 6 dBA higher than the 55 dBA residential limit between 7 AM and 10 PM in my community.

Goal #1 is the must have. The time that is most available to me to work on music is after the wife and kids have gone to bed and I’d like treat the room in a way that at a minimum I can plug my guitar into my rack and play through headphones and the acoustic strumming of the electric guitar doesn’t disturb the wife and kids. The other 2 goals I can work around but if what I am proposing can help meet those without significant cost or work beyond what I am proposing I'd like to pursue them.

CONSTRAINTS:
I have permission to use the room as a music room but it must look like and blend in with the rest of the house. Meaning flooring, baseboards and trim must match the rest of the house, possibly crown molding if we choose to go that direction in the rest of the house. I can’t make any changes to the angle of the walls. No construction that would require change or disruption to the other parts of the house.

BUDGET:
$20K USD

THE SPACE:
The room is essentially 17’10” (L) x 14’3” (W) x 8’ (H). There is a fireplace in the Northwest corner of the room. There is a 3 panel sliding glass door in the Southwest side of the room that is dual pane laminate glass (Milgard). There are two solid core doors (Jeldwen) on the North and East walls. One HVAC vent on the South wall. Various electrical outlet / switch boxes. Additionally, there is a gas valve for the fireplace and a gas pipe that runs from the crawl space to the attic for the central heat that is in the Northeast corner of the room. There is also a box for the water line to the refrigerator on the South wall.

Construction is wood framing (2” x 4”) with 16” centers. The outside of the framing is a single layer of drywall. Crawl space below. Unfinished attic above.

THE PLAN:

INSULATION:
(1) Use R-13 3.5” UltraTouch (http://www.bondedlogic.com) in between the studs in the wall and ceiling.

(2) Electrical boxes and switches will be insulated with QuietPutty (QuietPutty) or similar product (SealTight).

WALL/CEILING CONSTRUCTION:
(1) Kinetics Model IsoMax (http://www.kineticsnoise.com) clips installed using #8 x 2-1/2” coarse thread screws. 7/8” drywall furring channel per Kinetics installation guide Minimum 25ga with hemmed edge. I plan to use 22ga. 6” overlaps secured with two 7/16” framing screws.

Two layers of 1/2” drywall with Green Glue (http://www.greengluecompany.com) in between each layer. ¼” gaps at the floor and ceiling. “The first row of gypsum wallboard sheets at the bottom of the wall shall be installed with the long dimension supported on a 1/4 inch thick continuous resilient isolation strip, Kinetics Model RWS.” Layers between the ceiling and wall staggered. All gaps filled with backer rod and acoustical caulk (GreenGlue Sealant).

DOORS:
The existing doors which I cannot change are Jeld-wen solid core doors. I planned to retrofit a Pemko Automatic Door Bottom (Pemko) to the bottom of both doors and then use some kind of weather stripping to seal the rest of the door.

FLOORING:
The flooring has to match the rest of the house. There will be 1/8” rubber padding with WilsonArt laminate flooring. It is a floating floor in that it is tongue and grove and not permanently attached to the subfloor with a ¼” gap at the walls.

LIGHTING: I am not really sure what I want to do with lighting. The rest of the house has recessed lighting and I don’t want to do that to this room. This is one area where I don’t have to match the look of the rest of the house. I thought about pendant lights but I haven’t looked into what the installation would mean for this project. The other angle is to not install lights in the ceiling and have some floor standing units. But if there is a way to have lights “build in” I would like to go that way. If there are any suggestions I would gladly listen.

THINGS FOR ME TO LOOK OUT FOR:
(1) Gas valve and piping for fireplace. The... I can't recall the term now... its like a cover over the actual gas valve so things look nice and pretty on the wall. I think I've found a place that can make a longer one for me.
(2) HVAC - I just have the one vent. What options are available to me so that one vent doesn't short circuit the entire effort?
(3) How to insulate on sliding glass door wall. The West wall has a three panel sliding glass door. On that wall there aren't any "pockets" for insulation. Should I still use insulation on that wall? How should I go about it?
(4) extension boxes for outlets and switches - I was worried about these but I believe I have found suitable extensions.
(5) baseboards (Kinetic IsoMax installation guide) - Kinetic had a guide for installing baseboards. We have rather high baseboards and I will need to install them to match the look of the house. I believe I can keep them isolated from the floor without too much of a gap for esthetic reasons. In the corners where the two baseboards would meet I can leave a gap and caulk to make it look seamless. Is that OK or does that short circuit the design?
(6) crown molding - We don't currently have crown molding in the house but it was something we wanted to do. If we go this route and I have to do this in the music room do I treat it similarly to how the baseboards are being done? I know I don't want to couple the ceiling and wall with crown molding. What is the best way to install it or should it be avoided like the plague?
(7) door isolation - I planned to us a Pemko Automatic Door Bottom Pemko and the rest of the door seams with some kind of weatherstriping. Would this be an acceptable approach? Does it minimize the effectiveness of the wall construction?

QUESTIONS:
(1) What is the best way to deal with the piping for the gas feed to the fireplace (as seen on the North wall left hand corner)
(2) What is the best way to deal with the piping for the gas feed to the heater ( as seen on the East wall)
(3) What is the best way to deal with the “box” for the water line to the refrigerator (as seen on the South wall)?
(4) What are the recommended drywall furring channels that may be available to me?
(5) What screws should be used to attach the drywall to the drywall furring channel? I had that info but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

(6) What would you recomment to seal the rest of the solid core doors?
(7) Is there any benefit to using thicker insulation say R-30 8” UltraTouch in the ceiling?
(8) Is there any benefit to using insulation between the floor joists?
(9) Do those putty products used to insulate electrical outlet contain any moisture that would cause mold issues or staining on drywall after the wall has been primed and painted?

(10) Should I use 5/8” drywall instead of ½”?
(11) Should I consider three layers of drywall with GreenGlue in between?

I am just looking for a sanity check. If I were to proceed with this plan would it allow me to cost effectively achieve my goals?

Thanks for your time. Best regards,

-Michael

Hi Michael. Welcome!

That sounds like no isolation at all! An electric guitar played like that is hardly making any sound at all, and for that little bit to be audible two rooms away, there's something pretty bad wrong with the current isolation.

But that doesn't make sense, since you also say:

That implies roughly 60 dB TL to the property line, yet zero to the bedroom? How does that work? You have good isolation of really loud drums going next door, but zero isolation of a very quite guitar? Not logical. The only explanations I can think of is that a) the property line is several hundred meters away! or b) you have a major flanking path from the music room to the bedroom.

I guess the two big questions here are: How loud are you in your music room, playing electric guitar in the manner you described, as measured on a decent sound level meter set to "A" weighting and slow response? Then how loud is that when measured in the same way in the bedroom? We need answers to those two questions. To me it sounds like you have some type of direct path from your room to the bedroom. HVAC ducting and electrical conduit are very likely candidates.

You mention a lot of products in your "The Plan" section, and a basic budget, but I don't see the intended method outlined. Just to clarify: is this going to be a "room-in-a-room", fully decoupled two-leaf MSM system? In order to silence drums, it pretty much has to be, but you didn't say.

Are you intending to remove the existing drywall, flooring and ceiling from your room? From what you say later, it sound like that is the plan, but you never mentioned it. You did say "No construction that would require change or disruption to the other parts of the house", which implies that you can disrupt YOUR room all you want, as long as you don't mess up any other room. Is that correct?

You talk about adding a lot of stuff, but never talked about taking out the things that will prevent you getting good isolation, such as the existing drywall, for example!

You also mentioned products that you don't need, and you even seem to have "cut-and-paste" some marketing hype from brochures somewhere.

There are also some questionable materials in there, such as that "Ultratouch" insulation: I followed your link to their web site, but I could not find any acoustical specs for that, so there's no way of knowing if it will be any good at all for your application. We'd need to know the full acoustical specs to be able to figure that out.

Based on the description you give of the room, I'm not very enthusiastic about your chances of taming drums: There is no slab for the floor, just a wooden sub floor over a crawl space. Adding enough mass to that to isolate drums is dubious. You have multiple large perforations that cannot be closed up, apparently (fireplace, gas line, water line, HVAC, electrical, etc.) You can't adjust floor or ceiling height. You can't touch the rest of the house. Etc. So many issues and restrictions make success unlikely.

You can probably achieve goal #1 (playing electric guitar on headphones), but #2 (playing drums and not disturbing family of neighbors) seems to be a tall order.

I'd say that your best bet is the typical approach mentioned all over this forum: rip out the existing room (walls and ceiling) so that all you see around you is studs and joists, beef up the walls around you with a couple of layers of 5/8" drywall, build new stud frames an inch away from the existing frames, fill the cavities with miner wool, put 5/8" plywood on top of the existing joists, put new ceiling joists up on the new walls, fill that cavity with mineral wool too, then add your two layers of new 5/8" drywall with GG. Then add your second window, second doors, seals, HVAC silencers, surface mount electrical system, etc. (Yes, that would be a 3-leaf ceiling, but you have no choice in your case.)

But even then, your floor is a major weak point, followed by the fireplace, your window and your door, plus all the other issues you mentioned.

Finally there is the issue that you cannot install any acoustic treatment in your room! You say that the decor has to match the rest of the house, so that rules out pretty much all types of proper acoustic treatment. That will be a major issue, especially if you do manage to get good isolation.

To be honest, unless there is some flexibility on tall those restrictions, things do not bode well for success...


- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

"Are you intending to remove the existing drywall, flooring and ceiling from your room? From what you say later, it sound like that is the plan, but you never mentioned it."

But he did show pictures


"But if there is a way to have lights “build in” I would like to go that way. "

Given the space you can build boxes around the can lights, the kind that are rated to be enclosed.


Three of for big acoustic leaks are going to be the door...the glass in particular, and the fireplace...it is going to be an issue to deal with.

Also...all the existing electrical boxes need to be isolated before that wall ever gets closed...these are leaks, small leaks, with a cumulative effect.

"(2) HVAC - I just have the one vent. What options are available to me so that one vent doesn't short circuit the entire effort? "

Well the one vent is not the issue, it is the other vent that you do not have yet...the return air. In order for a room of this type to be as effective as possible you essentially attempt to construct a room that no air gets into and no air gets out of.

So in order for an HVAC to operate in this room it has to be able to push air in so there has to be a means to allow the flow of air out. Otherwise, if all you are doing is pushing air into this room that has no way out, it (the treated air) will stop flow after the room fills up.

"I believe I can keep them isolated from the floor without too much of a gap for esthetic reasons. In the corners where the two baseboards would meet I can leave a gap and caulk to make it look seamless. Is that OK or does that short circuit the design? "

If you glue the trim to the wallboard, no nails, then this is a way to go. What I have done, knowing where my studs are in the walls, is to criss-cross the trim nails in the bay areas VS directly into the studs. Then caulk and paint...works every time.


"(6) crown molding - We don't currently have crown molding in the house but it was something we wanted to do. If we go this route and I have to do this in the music room do I treat it similarly to how the baseboards are being done? "

You do not want the crown in the room...you install that after the house has been sold and you guys are moving...this is your room right? To install the crown in a fashion that leaves it uncoupled from the ceiling is more of a challenge than you know AND draws attention to the fact that it is different, the realtor doesn't know what...just that it is...


"(8) Is there any benefit to using insulation between the floor joists?"

In a mass spring mass (decoupled wall assembly) assembly, insulation is always part of the air that is in between the two separate assemblies...always, and for good reason. It has(insulation) ability to damp the panels to mitigate vibration and it will also convert higher frequencies to heat.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Thank you Stuart and Brien. I appreciate, very much, that you took the time to read through my post and reply. This type of project is a lot to take in and it looks like I had some gaps based on your questions. I'll do my best to provide answers to those.
Additionally I'd like to add that yesterday I tweaked my back pretty bad and that has made me a bit "sour" in my responses because I am not feeling very good. So I'd like to apologize in advance if the tone in any of my responses comes off as "sour." It is not intended. Sometimes when I am not feeling good my internal editor doesn't work as expected.

Regarding Stuart question on existing isolation:
There wasn't much. At the time I took the measurements there was just drywall and some of it was busted out because the two doors in the music room were originally pocket doors and I had them replaced with solid core doors. Along the East and North walls runs a hallway and the bedrooms are off that hallway. If you look at the North wall picture you'll see the door. That opens to the hallway and the Master Bedroom is about 3' to the left of that door.

The distance to the property line where I took the dBA measurement is between 45' to 60'. That distance starts at the 3 panel sliding glass door on the West wall to the wall on that side of our yard.

I have an Extech 407735 model sound level meter. With the meter in the center of the music room on a tripod, A weighting, Max Hold I played my electric acoustically (not plugged into anything) and peaked at 69.8 dBA. Moving the tripod to the master bedroom and with the master bedroom door closed and the music room doors closed (and I was careful to not make any noise closing the doors) I played the guitar again from the music room and the master bedroom peaked at 52.5 dBA. The meter all by itself in the master bedroom with no activity registers a 45.4 dBA.

Goal Clarification:
I laid out three goals only one of which do I consider critical and that was treating the room in a way that when I play an electric acoustically that my wife doesn't hear it in the bedroom. That is really all I have to accomplish.

The other part about the drums was a "nice to have" because I realize that - as you mentioned - I have to go much further beyond my plan. For the drum playing part I'll just have to coordinate practice time around the family schedule and that is OK. I can live with that.

The Method:
A two-leaf system if I understand correctly. Not-fully decoupled. The outer wall (north and east sides) are the existing 5/8" drywall. The interior wals and ceiling would be decoupled using the IsoMax clips and drywall furring channel with two layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between. The walls and ceiling would be insulated with 3" UltraTouch or similar insulation UltraTouch Specs. All outlet boxes isolated with some type of "silent" putty. The solid core doors sealed with weather stripping and Pemco automatic door bottom.

I can't do a room within a room approach due to the constraints I have from my Wife. So I have to give up any notion of minimizing drum noise and as I mentioned before I'll just have to work around the family's schedule to find time to play/record. But if my approach would stop the acoustic guitar playing then it would be worth further investigating the budget required to pursue this plan.

Acoustic Treatments:
I do have some constraints in terms of making the room look like the rest of the house I do have an "exemption" from the Wife for acoustic treatments as long as they are not permanently mounted to the walls. Althought I have done detailed research in this area I thought there are solutions that allow no permanent placement, or am I mistaken?

Lighting:

Thank you for the suggestion. I will look into that.

Acoustic "Leaks":

Additionally I think Stuart mentioned the floor as well but perhaps that was more in response to the idea of isolating drums.

As a follow-up... if I use one of the Pemko products I reference to seal the gap at the bottom of the door and then some kind of "weatherstripping" material for the rest of the door jamb would that be sufficient for stopping the acoustic sound of an electric guitar? Or does one really need to have a two door approach with an airlock in between?

Isn't the sliding glass door more of an issue of bothering the neighbors? So if I am willing to give up on the idea of isolating the drums (which was a nice to have in the first place) is it still an issue?

How is the fireplace an issue? The back of it is actually part of the wall in the Master Bedroom. Would there be sound leakage through the bricks?

Brien thanks for pointing out the issue with the HVAC and the "return" portion of that.

You know my Wife had brought up a point to me, she said "you should just be happy you have a place for your stuff." It has always been a dream to have a place where I could play music and not "bother" anyone but in reading what you gentlemen have written I am starting to think that maybe what is best for me, in this current situation, it to just finish the room off normally and work around the family schedule.

What do you guys think? It seems like I'd have to spend a bit and go through quite an effort to just isolate the strumming of an electric guitar.

I see them now! Didn't see them yesterday... don't understand why...

OK, so we are talking iso clips of some type, plus hat channel, plus two layers of 5/8 with GG, and insulation in the gap. That should help a lot(!), compared to what you have now, for the walls. Can you do the same for the ceiling? Take out what is there, add iso clips, hat channel and two layers of drywall with GG up there as well? If so, that takes care of five sides of the room, leaving only floor, windows, doors, HVAC. I still suspect HAVC is an issue...

You caught me running for the airport, so I can't answer longer right now, and I'll be out of touch for a few days. I'll try to answer better when I can...

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Hi Stuart... I can do the same for the ceiling. I planned to do the ceiling as you described but I wanted to wait and hear back from the experts in this forum before I knocked the ceiling out.

The Floor: How much leakage could I expect from the floor into the other rooms of the house? If I was just trying to stop the sound of an electric guitar played acoustically or an acoustic guitar being played would it be enough to just add insulation between the floor joists?

The Sliding Glass Door: If am not concerned about stopping leakage out to the property line would the sliding glass door still be an issue for me? The South wall of the master bedroom runs perpendicular to the West wall which has the sliding glass door. If I am only concerned with electric guitar played acoustically or an acoustic guitar being played is it still an issue?

The Doors: If I can add one of those Pemko units to drop a neopreen or silicone seal at the bottom of the door and can add some weatherstripping around the vertical door jamb sides and the upper horizontal portion of the door jamb would that be enough? The door is a solid core door. Again not for drums but for stumming a guitar.

The HVAC: Can I work around this? If I spend time in their from 10 PM to Midnight, right, just two hours and I don't run the A/C or heater do I still have the issue of treated air filling up that space with no where to go? Would that be hazardous to me? I remember reading something in "Home Recording Studio Build It Like The Pros" by Rod Gervais... I'll have to re-read. If the fireplace flue was open would that be enough to allow the air to escape? Again I am not really concerned about noise escaping to the neighbors anymore. I suppose I still have an issue with sound running through the HVAC ducking into other rooms at that time of night. Is there a different vent or grille I can buy that would prevent the sound from travelling back through the HVAC ducting?

Thanks again for your time.

If this is a concrete floor, then your OK...but the glass doors are still an issue depending on what levels you are trying to isolate.

As applies to the fireplace, it is a tunnel, an air path in and an air path out. So you either use it or lose it. If you are willing to lose it then you develop a plug in much the same way you would do for a window. If you are going to use it then it will be an air duct, an open orifice for sound to travel in and out of.

Here is the issue with existing doors, glass or wood. Glass, typically sliders, are by design rated in the area of 20 to 32+/- on the STC scale. The Sound Transmission Class relates to what the human ear can distinguish, which does not take low level frequency into account, like the TL (Transmission Loss) of a material does. And those numbers (tl) are not easily gotten.

So while you can build up these wall assemblies, you will still have an acoustic hole in the area of doors and windows since they, by nature of mass, can not compete with the mass, even the reduced spring of an assembly using clips and hat track/green glue, which btw has a reduced TL at lower frequencies. But not to worry.

But at least a heavy drape on the glass slider would be better than nothing...nothing being the spring board.

As to your interior doors, a solid door is preferred as you say you have. But (always a but right) the area between the jamb and the framing has to be filled solid with at least insulation, at best solid wood material. Currently, based on best practice it is most likley hollow in this void which may only be 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch around the perimeter...but this HAS to be addressed.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

I don't have a concrete floor. Will that be an issue for leakage into other parts of the house? Sound transmission through the floor, into the crawl space, and back through the floor in other rooms?

I am no longer worrying about leakage through the glass door or the fireplace because that is outside of the home. At this point I am just worried about leakage that would affect the other rooms in the house.

For the solid core doors in the room that lead into the hallway. I do intend to insulate the 1/4 to 1/2 gaps you mentioned between the jamb and the framing. Additionally, because the wall is going to stick out more due to the IsoMax clip, furring channel, and addition layer of drywall the wall surface isn't going to be flush with the door jamb on the interior of the room. I addressed this with the Wife and she was comfortable with me building a 2" x 4" "frame" around the door jamb which would effectively cover up those 1/4" to 1/2" gaps, no? I hope I am explaining that right.

So at this point if I am just concerned with leakage to other parts of the house and that would be essentially through the North, East, and South walls... and I treat the walls/ceiling as previously described... and I treat the doors as previously described being careful to insulate the gaps between the jamb and framing and add an additional layer of framing over those gaps... would I be cost effectively eliminating leakage going to the rest of the house? And the kind of leakage I am worried about at this point is say strumming acoustic guitar. Or is the floor still the weak point with sound escaping into the crawl space and then back into other parts of the house?

Thanks for your time Brien.

"I don't have a concrete floor. Will that be an issue for leakage into other parts of the house? Sound transmission through the floor, into the crawl space, and back through the floor in other rooms?"

Well you just gave a fine description of flanking. Yes it is going to be an issue but is addressable. Since we are talking about the foundation of this room there are many thing that have to be considered.

1. You have to insulate the joists that the floor rests on.
2. You have to install visqueen/sheet plastic on the ground below these joists to terminate the migration of condensation that will leach onto the insulation, make it wet/hold moisture and eventually rot your structure.

Then you have to install 703 rigid insulation on the topside of the floor, and cover it with several layers of 3/4 inch plywood or MDF, staggered and perpendicular to each other by layers, in the attempt to decouple this area. Changes your door threshold elevations, so you have to think about how this is installed and how it will effect a door that in-swings into this new environment.

To the fireplace, again. It may not get to the rooms directly but it will escape out of this tunnel, spread over the roof and re-enter the rooms from above...the potential is there, so it has to be a consideration.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

It's the same thing! If sound can get out of the room by ANY means, then it is out and can easily get back in again to rooms that are not isolated, and also to neighbors.


That's a myth: Insulation does NOT stop sound. Sound goes right through insulation. Think of sound as acting like water, and insulation as acting like a sponge. You can use a sponge to mop up water that spilled in the wrong place, but you cannot use the sponge to stop water pouring out your tap: the water goes right through, even though the sponge is very good at soaking up water! Same with sound: insulation has its uses in acoustic treatment ("mopping up sound that spilled in the wrong place"), but is not very effective at acoustic isolation ("Stopping sound pouring out through your floor"). Yes, insulation can certainly be PART of an excellent isolation system, but by itself does not do much.

What would help a whole lot more is to carefully seal the air gaps in the floor: all of the cracks, perforations, imperfections, etc.

But Brien gave you the best way of isolating your floor. That's the way to do it, at low cost.

That will help, yes. Everything you can do to seal the room air-tight will make a big difference to isolation. But the seal has to be complete to be effective. All sides of the door have to be sealed, any place that air can move from one side to the other.

I think you missed the point: this isn't about the noise of the system itself but rather the noise that is getting through from room to room, via the ducts. Sound that enters the register in your room is getting through the duct work and into the bedroom. That's the issue. So turning off the HVAC isn't going to solve that. They way to solve it is by installing silencer boxes in line with the air ducts. You can build them yourself. Easy and cheap (relatively!)

Not a vent or grill, but a silencer box. You cut out section of HVAC duct, and replace it with a silencer box that you build. Problem solved! There are several designs on this forum for HVAC silencers.

- Stuart -

_________________
I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Thanks guys for your time and expertise. I think the things that Brien mention regarding the floor... plus some of the areas of concern you both raised... involve more work / change than my Wife and I are comfortable with. I don't think I can make this work without more change that we both anticipated. And you can't do this stuff half way.

I think for near future I am just going to have to work out playing time with the family schedule. The Wife and I talked about that last night and at this point we are both comfortable with that.

Thanks again.

Compromise is always part of the project...and always part of living with the people we love

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.