John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum

Hello everyone, This forum is great! I’ve been researching and enjoying a lot of your builds posted here for the last few months and researching from other sources too. So far a mate and I have been fixing/sealing the existing shell of my 4.7 x 4.4 meter weatherboard back shed on a concrete slab (5 meters from the house. In city, Own property), got a Budget 6-10 grand (would like it to be 6g but more like 10g), still working on the design, please see attached. It’s a tight space hopefully we can get the most out of it.

Objective: One space to write, track and mix. Mainly writing Electronic music but it incorporates a lot of live instrument recording and Over dubs. Perc, vocals, horns, guitars etc. Eg Monitors turned down and headphones on record with Pro tools in the same room for live instruments. We hire large studios for full kit drum sessions and overdubs on home setup.

Also want to be able to practice with band (live drums, bass etc) without bothering the house mates(5 meters) and neighbors (10 meters). Will be tight size space for band but still fit.

Overall main purpose is for writing/recording/mixing music solo/duo but need the isolation to practice as live band.

So Far (Just sealing/Fixing/taking all the junk off the walls of the outer leaf, so far):

Outer Wall/Leaf: Have been sealing up weatherboards with liquid nails, pulled down old sliding door, building new frame and wall and putting in new door on that side, Plugging in windows with rubber seal and 18mm MDF. Blocking up old door facing house, too close to corner, wouldn’t be able to line up with inner frame door, plus side access is easier to load music gear in from the back lane without bothering the household. But will still use old door on outside to keep same aesthetic.
Filling all spaces between studs with 18mm MDF(or 13mm soundchek?) and sealing round edges to add mass to outer leaf and tighter seal.
Shed was already stuffed with insulation batts which we can put back in once sealed. Or Buy new Batts (check budget).

Outer Roof: Filling all spaces between studs with 18mm MDF(or 13mm soundchek?) and sealing round edges to add mass to outer leaf and tighter seal (like walls). Currently there are 5 horizontal beams that holding roof just above head height. With a advice from a builder friend we are able to move these up half way up the arch of the roof which will give us much need height in the room (i am going to double check with a few more professionals) . Roof shape /¯¯\

Inner Wall/Leaf: 1 strip of Neoprene under frame, 90x45mm frame, anchor bolt (Looking for rubber fitted ones), Pink Batts(R3.5 & 520mm wide), 2 layers of 13mm soundchek, green glue in-between, green glue sealant round edges.

Inner Roof: Frame to follow same layer of the outer roof frame with beams running parallel but not touching, plus few cm lower so soundchek doesn’t touch outer frame.
Pink Batts, 2 layers of 13mm soundchek, green glue in-between, green glue sealant round edges.

Floor: Sit inside of Inner frame. 1 Layer of Neoprene, 1 or 2 Layers of Yellow Tongue, underlay, Floor Boards.

Aircon: Heat, Cold, Vent (HVAC). will create 2x sound Maze, to fit in roof in gap between int/out roof up top (might be a weird shape).

Power: We have an electrician family friend to help. Will need to move fuse box to the outside of shed.

Doors: Looking up some designs posted here on forum. Having trouble positioning door if its on the back wall. Need room for Bass trap in corner.

Skp Design so far
My first Questions...
1. Roof Measurement/angles are not 100%, still working on it. I'm wondering if this type of solution is ok or there is a better option. We looked at just having a flat roof running beams parallel to current position but there would little to no height in the room (2.24 meters floor concrete to beams). Im really keen to have Inner frame not touching outer shed.

2. Door position. ok on back wall from mixing position? or is it ok to position Mixing Position on the longer wall facing older window(shorter length of the room) so the door would be on the side wall?

Also:
3. Best places for sourcing materials Melbourne. Looking for Anchor Bolt with rubber insulation? 3.5R Bradford Rockwool insulation? Best Place for Neoprene(floor)?

Photos a little old, we have ripped alot of stuff out already, but that's our starting point.
Thanks again!
Cam C

"Looking for Anchor Bolt with rubber insulation? "

I would like to see one of those myself

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Brien Holcombe
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Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Yeah, Im looking for a similar product in Melbourne Australia like these:
http://www.soundisolationstore.com/plit ... nking.html
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/isol ... r-bushings
http://www.cmsantivibration.co.uk/produ ... ollars.htm

Cheers Cam C

Cam - try your local clark rubber store.

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John Sayers Productions
The Recording Manual
Studios Under Construction

I just added a metal washer + a rubber washer (could just be a square piece of neoprene of adequate thickness with a hole punched in the middle), then slipped a rubber tubing (aquarium or garden supplies) over the bolt shaft cut in length to the thickness of the soleplate.

_________________
Brian
As you slide down the bannister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way...

Right well...I know that everything matters, and to assume that I could just slip on a piece of rubber and have it work under the foot pounds required would be, to me, assuming that I could use a tooth pick to do what I know it takes a 2X4 to achieve.

_________________
Brien Holcombe
_____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Hi

Check out these dudes for plaster and insulation

http://www.rdsayers.com.au/page1

They are in same suburb as you, I have used them in the past and their prices are reasonable too.

Also Bowen's (in North Melbourne) is the only place in melbourne i found that stock Acoustic Caulk - HB Fuller Fire Sound

Cheers

Dan

Hi guys, thanks heaps for the replies!!

Maybe we’ll play it safe and just use the anchor bolts without the rubber due to the weight on the structure roof etc , but I’ll defiantly check out Clark Rubber(thanks John), I’m guessing they will have Neoprene for the floor too. Still a little while away to working on the inter frame.

Dan great call on the rdsayers.com, its round the corner from me!!

Here are some photos of the progress, we pulled the old roller doors out and started putting in a new support frame and corner post.
Sealed up the back window with some MDF and rubber seal round the edges. Will most likely put layer of sound chek to thicken it up.
Will do same will front window but saving for later, enjoying the natural light. After Sealing up the old weather boards on inside with liquid nails to make air tight, I’ve been rendering with adhesive the over the top, kind of a double seal also to be able to lie the panels of MDF flat on outer leaf (no little/less gaps of air between weatherboards and MDF.
Looking at cutting MDF to fit in-between the Studs, rubber strips round edges + sealant, screws into studs to hold in but not into the MDF to help the MDF panels to adsorb the lower vibrations on the outer leaf.

Sealing up old front door, so far just taken down. Going to create new one on that open side door.
Striped out roof too, will do layer of MDF to keep consistent with walls.

Cheers Cam C

Hi guys, busy busy.. plugging this old shed also a little tour/video clips/releases with my band.

So far...
Lots of MPF filled studs, Raised roof beam to halfway up arch (from advice from builders) to get some height inside.
Sealed Gaps between top of walls and roof (One layer Pine for external, one mdf interior). Old windows & door filled & Air tight along with Sealant. Next we will be building stud interior wall now with 45mm air space between outer wall. Purchased 6mm rolls of Neoprene to sit under inter stud walls & I'll cut squares for floor, sit carpet underlay(50m2 from Essendon FC club rooms) in between, Yellow tongue on top, another layer of carpet under lay, floor boards. Researched Rockwool R2.5 x 430 (4.35m2 Per Pack) & 13mm soundchek from round corner at CSR (thx Dan).


Air???
If I get a split system HVAC (any recommendations AU/Melb for tiny space on a budget) do i also need to create air vents (with Maze & Fan)?



Thanks Guys
Cam

Did you get a qualified structural engineer to check that out and sign off on it? Did it pass inspection? I'm not a structural engineer, but I know enough to have my serious doubts about whether that has been done correctly or not. I fear you may have re-distributed loads in manners that were never intended for that structure. But only a structural engineer (not just a builder!) can do the calculations and confirm if what you did is OK, or if it poses a danger.

That isn't nearly enough. The air gap (distance between inner leaf and outer leaf surfaces) must be AT LEAST 100mm, probably much more, depending on how much isolation you need. How much do you need? What is your goal, in terms of decibels?

You seem to be ignoring all the advice all over the forum about this, but I'll repeat it anyway: Trying to float a floor on rubber is a complicated process, requiring careful calculation of the percentage deflection required under the given total load. Did you do that? What are your calculations? How much deflection will you be getting from that rubber, and what is the load that will give you that? Did you take into account the way load changes along the length of the wall? It isn't constant. If you did not do all of the above, then you are wasting your time, money and effort with that rubber. The possibilities that it will work out right purely by chance, are pretty close to zero.

Sorry, but that's a really bad way to build a studio floor. You cannot lay floor boards on top of carpet on top of wood on top of underlay on top of rubber! That's not what carpet is meant for, and you most certainly cannot float your floor in the manner you are supposing: Once again, this is a waste of time, money and effort. Floating a floor is serious business, requiring careful calculation and planning. You cannot just cut a few bits of rubber, stuff them under some joists, and slap some wood and carpet on top. That simply will not work. You do not have anywhere near enough mass in that floor to make it float successfully. All that you will achieve is to build your floor as a giant drum head, which will vibrate and resonate and various frequencies, doing extreme harm to both the isolation of the room, and to the acoustics within the room. I would strongly urge you to abandon this idea of trying to float your floor: You DO NOT need to do that. It will eat up time, money, effort and room height, all to no purpose at all. A plain old concrete floor is an excellent floor for a studio, acoustically.

Read these:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/p ... /ir802.pdf
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8134

Once again, you are wasting money and not using the best product for the job. Sound waves do not care how much you pay for your mass: they cannot read price tags. So the best isolation is to use as much low-cost mass as possible. Ordinary 16mm drywall (gypsum board, palster board, sheet rock, etc.) is far more cost effective than expensive specialty products that you do not need.

Most definitely yes! You will be building two hermetically sealed, totally air-tight shells around you: you and your mates have to be able breathe! No fresh air = you die.

You need to stop guessing and do the calculations to ensure that you will have enough fresh air being pumped into the room to keep you alive, and the same amount of stale air being exhausted from the room.

I have no idea what a "Maze & Fan" is, but what you need is a pair of purpose-designed silencer boxes of the correct dimensions and correct design to provide the correct flow-rate at the correct speed and with the correct level of isolation, connect to suitably isolated and positioned ducts. Here too you can't just guess: you have to actually do the calculations.

The recommendation is for the right one for YOUR room, based on your room volume, occupancy, temperature, humidity, air flow and several other key factors. Once again, you cannot guess: you need to do the calculations.

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit harsh here, but it looks like you are not ready to be doing what you are doing. There is no plan, major parts of the build have not been researched or designed, and some of the proposed methods and materials are just a wast of time and money, since they will not do what you are hoping they will do. This build seems to be based a lot on internet myth, and very little on actual solid principles of acoustic design. It might be a good time to take a break from building for a few weeks, and do some research into how you should actually do this.

- Stuart -

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I want this studio to amaze people. "That'll do" doesn't amaze people.

Thanks Stuart, sorry i was way too vague in my last post. I was trying to get the focus on the Air etc, but u bought up some big points. I'll try and clear a few points up first.


Yes, we first got the idea from a builder and we checked it off a family friend structural engineer/Design & Drafting, he got all the stamps, Registered Building Practitioner, Master Builders, Building Designers Association Victoria.



In previous posts i explained in more detail my walls/roof. Inter to Outer.
2 layers of 13mm sound check, green glue. The quotes I got, the price difference between 13mm soundchek & 16mm Fyrchek was very little but it all counts so i'll re-look into 16mm
90mm Interior Stud wall (rock wool inside)- 45mm air spacing between studs- 90mm Outer Stud wall (rock wool inside)
Outer= MDF sheet, Weather boards.
90+45+72(90mm - 18mm MDF in between stud flat against outer wall)
= 207mm distance between inner leaf and outer leaf surfaces
(again I'll work out the db difference between 45mm or 90mm between the stud bases [207 to 252 total], fighting for space inside once walls come in is tough, but pointless if we aren't getting the result we need)


Thanks for the wake up call, I do need to get my calculations sorted. The interior walls were not going to sit on any floating floor, just studs on 6mm rubber and anchor bolted to the concrete slab.

Yes, this floating floor layout was a very loose idea at a very early stage of thought, also the more i look into not necessary. But I'll keep researching. Plenty of uses down the road for rubber, under speakers, drum riser maybe.



Thanks, i wasn't going to build anything with out proper calculations for fresh air in and out (silencer boxes). Just seeing if there was an off chance of a HVAC out there that could pump fresh air in and out safely.


All good Stuart, Agree I've been working on getting the old shed up to scratch sealing it up for so long, now i've come to the real acoustic design elements, need to sort it all out (not in stages) before we start. Also a proper db target outside when a band is playing inside.

Cheers Cam C

Sorry your right, 100mm minimum air gap

cheers cam